Dany's Vision: Rhaegar

[The Sea Snake]

Okay, so I am currently re-reading the series, really focusing on the little things on the important parts (which now in hindisght seem obviously important). I am sure that anybody who has re-read the series has paid extreme attention to Dany's chapter in the house of the undying, since we can safely assume that is one of the most revealing and foreshadowing chapters in the books.

So, when re-reading this part in particular, the part when she sees Rhaegar, it suddenly hit me. I mean, it had ALWAYS nagged me why did Rhaegar pay so much heed to the birth of Aegon. He claims that HE is the prince that was promised and that HIS is the song of ice and fire (pretty much the messiah of westeros). We can safely assume that Rhaegar did know what he was talking about, since his desition of becoming a warrior after finding "a prophecy"... Very much likely refering to AA or tPtwP.

But then again.... WHY did he forsake Aegon, with no Kingsguard to his own fate in Kingslanding? He knew what would happen to him if they lost the war (even if he could not predict the Lannisters's treason). That fact had always bothered me. Why does Aegon seem so important at birth, and then so disposable during the war? Besides, off the record, there is simply no way that Aegon (or even worse) fAegon turns out to be the Hero of the series, displacing Jon, Danny,Bran or other worthy candidates.

So why is Aegon the prince and the owner of the song????

Until it hit me.

All you had to do, was remember: R+L=J. And then..... wait a minute. If Jon was born from Rhaegar and Lyanna... Why the hell did the name him JON? Doesn't sound like a Targaryen name. I don't recall any Jon Stark. It just sounds off.

Who do we know that could have named a boy JON? Perhaps a man that been raised by a namesake? Any names come to mind?

So yeah, I began thinking about that. And perhaps the "promise me Ned", which I believe was "Promise me Ned; that you will hide my son's identity from Robbert"... also meant CHANGING the baby's name to something else, to create a fake identity for him. Why not Jon, in honor to Jon Arryn, Ned's mentor.

So then, what was Jon's real name... given by his father? Why not Aegon? Could Danny have been unknowingly witnessing JON's birth instead of the original Aegon? And if this theory turns out to be true, does that mean that Jon has a BROTHER/SISTER? since remember, Rhaegar said "there must be one more, the dragon has three heads" implying that this was the second.

I know this theory has the weakspot that if Lyanna died during child's birth as the RL=J theory claims, Rhaegar was not present at the time of her death... But then again, this is just a vision in the house of the undying, not factual history. The interpretation can afford to be loose.

I am not sure if the time line adds up for Lyanna to have had two separate pregnancies from Rhaegar, but maybe so... Or if not, there is always the Twin theories that other people have postulated.

Anyway, it was just something I thought about when re-reading this, and it made me feel that Rhaegar had forsaken his family with Ellia Martell and kinda like started a "new one" with Lyanna. Trying to grow the three dragon heads from ice and fire.

I wish Howland Reed would just enter the forum and answer this thread.

[Fire Eater]

But then again.... WHY did he forsake Aegon, with no Kingsguard to his own fate in Kingslanding? He knew what would happen to him if they lost the war (even if he could not predict the Lannisters's treason). That fact had always bothered me. Why does Aegon seem so important at birth, and then so disposable during the war? Besides, off the record, there is simply no way that Aegon (or even worse) fAegon turns out to be the Hero of the series, displacing Jon, Danny,Bran or other worthy candidates.

Aegon had Jaime in KL, and he was going out to face Robert with a larger army. Tywin also hadn't even joined Robert's side until after the Trident.

So why is Aegon the prince and the owner of the song????

Until it hit me.

All you had to do, was remember: R+L=J. And then..... wait a minute. If Jon was born from Rhaegar and Lyanna... Why the hell did the name him JON? Doesn't sound like a Targaryen name. I don't recall any Jon Stark. It just sounds off.

Who do we know that could have named a boy JON? Perhaps a man that been raised by a namesake? Any names come to mind?

Rhaegar didn't get a chance to name Jon as he died before Jon was even born, Ned named him. Jon was the only name he was given while Lyanna was sick and dying.

Anyway, it was just something I thought about when re-reading this, and it made me feel that Rhaegar had forsaken his family with Ellia Martell and kinda like started a "new one" with Lyanna. Trying to grow the three dragon heads from ice and fire.

I wish Howland Reed would just enter the forum and answer this thread.

Elia could not bear any more children, and Rhaegar felt there needed to be a third child for the prophecy. Rhaegar likely didn't know there was going to be a war.

[jalabarxho]

Aegon had Jaime in KL, and he was going out to face Robert with a larger army. Tywin also hadn't even joined Robert's side until after the Trident.

To take the OP's side for just a second:

It does seem kind of strange to leave your wife, toddler and infant with only one bodyguard but have three of the best swordsmen on the continent guarding your sidepiece and bastard.

But on the other hand, technically Aegon should have been safe in King's Landing. The Red Keep should have been the safest place on the planet.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

There has been a king named Jon Stark, IIRC.

Also, Rhaegar had returned to KL a few weeks/months before Jon was born, so the vision Dany saw cannot have been Lyanna.

It was Ned who named Jon "Jon", but it's not unthinkable that Rhaegar had left instructions for a name. If Rhaegar truly wanted to recreate the original trio, he would have been expecting a girl, Visenya.

[SeanF]

To take the OP's side for just a second:

It does seem kind of strange to leave your wife, toddler and infant with only one bodyguard but have three of the best swordsmen on the continent guarding your sidepiece and bastard.

But on the other hand, technically Aegon should have been safe in King's Landing. The Red Keep should have been the safest place on the planet.

There were hundreds of soldiers at Kings Landing, even after Rhaegar marched North. There was no one to protect Lyanna and Jon at the Tower of Joy, other than the three Kingsguards.

In addition, it may never have occurred to Rhaegar that if he was killed and his army defeated, his wife and infant children would be butchered. The impression I get from Rhaegar is that for all his courage, skill at arms, and intellectual ability, he was pretty naïve when it came to warfare and power politics.

.

[Fire Eater]

To take the OP's side for just a second:

It does seem kind of strange to leave your wife, toddler and infant with only one bodyguard but have three of the best swordsmen on the continent guarding your sidepiece and bastard.

But on the other hand, technically Aegon should have been safe in King's Landing. The Red Keep should have been the safest place on the planet.

Except Jon isn't a bastard, or the KG wouldn't have remained at the ToJ after KL fell, they would have gone to Dragonstone to Viserys. RHaegar left KG at the ToJ sinc ehe feared for her life, Aerys, after killing Rickard and Brandon, called for Ned and Robert's heads; imagine what he would have done with Lyanna.

KL had a sizable force and strong walls.

[The Sea Snake]

Even if Kingslanding was safe and all... It would not have been safe if the Targs lost the war. Once Robbert took the city (the next logical and unavoidable step if he won the decisive battle, AKA the trident) He would remove possible contenderes, in other words, Rhaegar's brood. Even if the Lannisters did not betray, Robbert would march on KG next... Who cares if the Targs are inside the keep? Keeps can be besiged and surrendered, if not stormed. Once the city was surrendered to Robbert, he would just execute the babies.

The best option to me seems HIDING THEM, EVACUATING THEM!!! Just like Ser Darry did with Viserys and Danny!

Take the example of Tyrion, when he evacuates and hides Tommen when Stannis marches on Kinglsanding, so that Joffrey's heir would not be there for Stannis to behead. So KL or the RK don't seem to be the safest place in the universe in my reckoning when besieged by usurpers.

Second, Dany has a vision. She sees a feast of corpses for the red wedding, and tiny men eating a woman for christ sake... Nothing is literal when it comes to visions. I thought the timeline does not fit, but this is a vision and can therefore be loosely interpreted.

Still, why would Rhaegar abandon the real Aegon if he was so important!!!

[jalabarxho]

Except Jon isn't a bastard, or the KG wouldn't have remained at the ToJ after KL fell, they would have gone to Dragonstone to Viserys. RHaegar left KG at the ToJ sinc ehe feared for her life, Aerys, after killing Rickard and Brandon, called for Ned and Robert's heads; imagine what he would have done with Lyanna.

KL had a sizable force and strong walls.

I don't disagree with you that Jon probably wasn't a bastard, but I think there's still a lot we don't know about the tower of joy situation. Did those three nights have any sort of plan to evacuate Lyanna and Jon - if so, why hadn't they already? I know that Lyanna was sick but technically they could've just made off with the heir and left her to whoever found them. Did they not expect to be found? What if Ned had marched on them with an army? What if Robert himself had come?

It just seems like there were a lot of possibilities they were not prepared for but I also think that a lot of the duty they were doing was duty to Rhaegar as a friend rather than functions of any royal apparatus.

Even if Kingslanding was safe and all... It would not have been safe if the Targs lost the war. Once Robbert took the city (the next logical and unavoidable step if he won the decisive battle, AKA the trident) He would remove possible contenderes, in other words, Rhaegar's brood. Even if the Lannisters did not betray, Robbert would march on KG next... Who cares if the Targs are inside the keep? Keeps can be besiged and surrendered, if not stormed. Once the city was surrendered to Robbert, he would just execute the babies.

The best option to me seems HIDING THEM, EVACUATING THEM!!! Just like Ser Darry did with Viserys and Danny!

Take the example of Tyrion, when he evacuates and hides Tommen when Stannis marches on Kinglsanding, so that Joffrey's heir would not be there for Stannis to behead. So KL or the RK don't seem to be the safest place in the universe in my reckoning when besieged by usurpers.

Second, Dany has a vision. She sees a feast of corpses for the red wedding, and tiny men eating a woman for christ sake... Nothing is literal when it comes to visions. I thought the timeline does not fit, but this is a vision and can therefore be loosely interpreted.

Still, why would Rhaegar abandon the real Aegon if he was so important!!!

I mean, yeah we know that leaving his children in the Red Keep was a stupid move - even if Tywin and his army hadn't showed up, there's no way he didn't notice that Aerys was basically completely unhinged

but I also think it's pretty clear that Rhaegar didn't expect to die

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Even if Kingslanding was safe and all... It would not have been safe if the Targs lost the war. Once Robbert took the city (the next logical and unavoidable step if he won the decisive battle, AKA the trident) He would remove possible contenderes, in other words, Rhaegar's brood. Even if the Lannisters did not betray, Robbert would march on KG next... Who cares if the Targs are inside the keep? Keeps can be besiged and surrendered, if not stormed. Once the city was surrendered to Robbert, he would just execute the babies.

The best option to me seems HIDING THEM, EVACUATING THEM!!! Just like Ser Darry did with Viserys and Danny!

Take the example of Tyrion, when he evacuates and hides Tommen when Stannis marches on Kinglsanding, so that Joffrey's heir would not be there for Stannis to behead. So KL or the RK don't seem to be the safest place in the universe in my reckoning when besieged by usurpers.

Second, Dany has a vision. She sees a feast of corpses for the red wedding, and tiny men eating a woman for christ sake... Nothing is literal when it comes to visions. I thought the timeline does not fit, but this is a vision and can therefore be loosely interpreted.

Still, why would Rhaegar abandon the real Aegon if he was so important!!!

Well, for one, Rhaegar seems to have been rather confident he would win. Second, Rhaegar believed Aegon was the Prince that was Promised.. How can such a foretold prince die? That might have been another thought in Rhaegar's minds, that it would be impossible for Aegon to die, because he still had a part to fullfill in a prophecy.

[SunflashJT]

Except Jon isn't a bastard, or the KG wouldn't have remained at the ToJ after KL fell, they would have gone to Dragonstone to Viserys.

Let us not forget they could have stayed on orders from the Crowned Prince Rhaegar. That is one of their responsibilities, to follow orders. However I do like to believe they stayed to protect the blood royal, Jon.

[Fire Eater]

Let us not forget they could have stayed on orders from the Crowned Prince Rhaegar. That is one of their responsibilities, to follow orders. However I do like to believe they stayed to protect the blood royal, Jon.

Except at the time Rhaegar gave the orders, King Aerys still had four KG with him while Viserys had none with him. Their duty first and foremost is to protect the king, and by dying at the ToJ they were jeopardizing Viserys's safety.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar didn't leave Elia and the children with only Jaime.

He let them with Jaime, inside a fortress, with a lot of guards protecting them, which was relatively safe until the gates were opened from inside. Also, Aerys kept them as hostages, otherwise, they would have been sent to Dragonstone along with Rhaella and Viserys.

Lyanna was, otoh, only with three man to protect her, in the middle of nowhere.

[SeanF]

Even if Kingslanding was safe and all... It would not have been safe if the Targs lost the war. Once Robbert took the city (the next logical and unavoidable step if he won the decisive battle, AKA the trident) He would remove possible contenderes, in other words, Rhaegar's brood. Even if the Lannisters did not betray, Robbert would march on KG next... Who cares if the Targs are inside the keep? Keeps can be besiged and surrendered, if not stormed. Once the city was surrendered to Robbert, he would just execute the babies.

The best option to me seems HIDING THEM, EVACUATING THEM!!! Just like Ser Darry did with Viserys and Danny!

Take the example of Tyrion, when he evacuates and hides Tommen when Stannis marches on Kinglsanding

, so that Joffrey's heir would not be there for Stannis to behead. So KL or the RK don't seem to be the safest place in the universe in my reckoning when besieged by usurpers.

Tyrion has a precedent. The murder of Elia and her children. Tywin raised the stakes for everyone, by murdering them.

Added to which, I think Rhaegar was the archetypal other-worldly intellectual, who can't imagine that other people may play by different rules to him.

[The Sea Snake]

Added to which, I think Rhaegar was the archetypal other-worldly intellectual, who can't imagine that other people may play by different rules to him.

that's interesting. I know Ned did not expect that. I think that if knew more about Rhaegar's character this discussion would be more orientated

[Slavers Bay City Rollers]

Okay, so I am currently re-reading the series, really focusing on the little things on the important parts (which now in hindisght seem obviously important). I am sure that anybody who has re-read the series has paid extreme attention to Dany's chapter in the house of the undying, since we can safely assume that is one of the most revealing and foreshadowing chapters in the books.

So, when re-reading this part in particular, the part when she sees Rhaegar, it suddenly hit me. I mean, it had ALWAYS nagged me why did Rhaegar pay so much heed to the birth of Aegon. He claims that HE is the prince that was promised and that HIS is the song of ice and fire (pretty much the messiah of westeros). We can safely assume that Rhaegar did know what he was talking about, since his desition of becoming a warrior after finding "a prophecy"... Very much likely refering to AA or tPtwP.

But then again.... WHY did he forsake Aegon, with no Kingsguard to his own fate in Kingslanding? He knew what would happen to him if they lost the war (even if he could not predict the Lannisters's treason). That fact had always bothered me. Why does Aegon seem so important at birth, and then so disposable during the war? Besides, off the record, there is simply no way that Aegon (or even worse) fAegon turns out to be the Hero of the series, displacing Jon, Danny,Bran or other worthy candidates.

So why is Aegon the prince and the owner of the song????

Until it hit me.

All you had to do, was remember: R+L=J. And then..... wait a minute. If Jon was born from Rhaegar and Lyanna... Why the hell did the name him JON? Doesn't sound like a Targaryen name. I don't recall any Jon Stark. It just sounds off.

Who do we know that could have named a boy JON? Perhaps a man that been raised by a namesake? Any names come to mind?

So yeah, I began thinking about that. And perhaps the "promise me Ned", which I believe was "Promise me Ned; that you will hide my son's identity from Robbert"... also meant CHANGING the baby's name to something else, to create a fake identity for him. Why not Jon, in honor to Jon Arryn, Ned's mentor.

So then, what was Jon's real name... given by his father? Why not Aegon? Could Danny have been unknowingly witnessing JON's birth instead of the original Aegon? And if this theory turns out to be true, does that mean that Jon has a BROTHER/SISTER? since remember, Rhaegar said "there must be one more, the dragon has three heads" implying that this was the second.

I know this theory has the weakspot that if Lyanna died during child's birth as the RL=J theory claims, Rhaegar was not present at the time of her death... But then again, this is just a vision in the house of the undying, not factual history. The interpretation can afford to be loose.

I am not sure if the time line adds up for Lyanna to have had two separate pregnancies from Rhaegar, but maybe so... Or if not, there is always the Twin theories that other people have postulated.

Anyway, it was just something I thought about when re-reading this, and it made me feel that Rhaegar had forsaken his family with Ellia Martell and kinda like started a "new one" with Lyanna. Trying to grow the three dragon heads from ice and fire.

I wish Howland Reed would just enter the forum and answer this thread.

But then again.... WHY did he forsake Aegon, with no Kingsguard to his own fate in Kingslanding? He knew what would happen to him if they lost the war (even if he could not predict the Lannisters's treason). That fact had always bothered me. Why does Aegon seem so important at birth, and then so disposable during the war?

Aerys kept Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon at the Red Keep because it kept Dorne tied to the Targaryans. They were hostages. Rhaegar had very little to say in the matter.

[PatrickStormborn]

Think of it this way: Rhaegar left Aegon relatively unguarded because he thought he was the Prince that was Promised and would therefore survive. He was so obsessed with prophecy that it ultimately killed him and his children.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But then again.... WHY did he forsake Aegon, with no Kingsguard to his own fate in Kingslanding? He knew what would happen to him if they lost the war (even if he could not predict the Lannisters's treason). That fact had always bothered me. Why does Aegon seem so important at birth, and then so disposable during the war?

The thing is, Rhaegar expected to win. Besides, he had left Aegon in KL, in a guarded Red Keep, behind the walls of KL. Aegon was relatively safe, but Rhaegar could not have foreseen that Aerys would open the gates and let the enemy inside his city.

Also, Rhaegar believed Aegon to be the promised prince, and thus, it would be unthinkable for Rhaegar that Aegon died before fulfilling the prophecy.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The Red Keep was the second safest place in all Westeros that Rhaegar could have left Aegon. The safest would have been Dragonstone, and Rhaegar had no reason to believe that Aerys would forbid Elia and the kids to flee to Dragonstone with the rest of the family. The Targs had overwhelming naval superiority in Blackwater Bay and on the east coast of Westeros, so Rhaegar would have expected the escape route to remain open.

[A rose by any other name]

It's possible that people are making a mountain out of a molehill with this "dragon has 3 heads" thing. It may just be a failed plan of Rhaegar's. He had his Rhaenys and his Aegon and was more than likely hoping for another daughter via Lyanna (since Elia was said to be barren after Aegon's birth) to be his Visenya. Even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he's still a boy and who know's if that was even compatible with what Rhaegar wanted. He seemed like a man who was consumed with a dream he had concerning the grandeur and lineage of his family. I feel like he would have continued to make babies until he had another daughter. We know that prophecies, dreams and visions are changeable and I think that it is possible that this one just didn't get the chance to come to completion.

[John Suburbs]

You can't march off to face your foe on the battlefield and then spirit your family somewhere safe in case you lose. The hit to your soldiers' morale would be severe.

But I'm puzzled as to why people don't think Jon is a bastard. If Rhaegar was married to Elia, then he couldn't father a trueborn child on Lyanna -- at least, not in the eyes of the church and virtually every noble house in Westeros. The only way it could have happened is if the marriage was annulled, which I doubt because someone would have mentioned it by now.

So by definition, Jon was Rhaegar's bastard son, which doesn't mean he (Jon) couldn't become king -- it would just take a Blackfyre-type rebellion to put him there. And Jon can also be a dragon head, since that seems more of a blood/genetics thing than a cultural/heritage thing.