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[Book Spoilers] The Hound


Exar0s

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It has also become commonplace to distinguish a dream sequence from the rest of the film by showing a shot of a person in bed sleeping or about to go to sleep... In classic Hollywood, the wavy dissolve was the standard way to transition between reality and a dream; there would be a close-up of the character having the dream, which would begin shimmering as we crossed over from reality to fantasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_sequence

Here's the clip, it's at the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qafMsdPLDhM

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I definitely think that's where they are going, lots of subtext, watch it again and it stands out a lot more. The dream after listening to "singing" (in the books, "I'll have a song from you"), there was a parallel scene with Arya, where she's in the same position and says, The Hound. And not sure if you noticed the first scene, there was a transition from Sansa to the Hound, and Arya asks, didn't you steal anything from Joffrey before you left, and he says a quick, quiet no. Then in the end, he should have taken her with him.

Thank for this! I got the reference to stealing but missed the others, especially the Arya parallel to the dream. It's funny that they took the time to make those sort of choices with filming and editing but missed out on a whopper like Sandor's reaction to finding out about Sansa's marriage. It's not a big, dramatic proclamation of love but another small piece in the jigsaw puzzle that would suggest to non-book readers that there is more to the relationship.

In the books, the characters don't openly acknowledge their feelings (whether they are aware of those feelings themselves is another thing), but its only putting together the small hints and clues in the text that we know something deeper is going on. (Except Sandor in the BBW which is the Clegane equivalent of romantic poetry). The show needs to try and help non-book readers along too.

Oh dear, I feel I am being negative on the show when it's not entirely doom and gloom and there are moments they got right.

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Oh dear, I feel I am being negative on the show when it's not entirely doom and gloom and there are moments they got right.

Clegane romantic poetry. :lol: And you are right, it's all about putting everything together, and there is so much to put together. It's a beautifully told story, in the books, anyway. I am very negative on the show, but season 4, along with seeing La Belle et la Bete and noticing the Blackwater parallels, convinced me they are going there on the show, too.

Also, the "one happy memory" line stands out so much. It wasn't needed at all, to convey goading Arya, and it's not in the books, but it's a really good line, and very beautiful on its own, she was the one happy memory he had. So what if this is about the unkiss. GRRM refers to the unkiss in terms of a memory (he also says she will remember him kissing her in future volumes plural, so I suspect there was a reference in the ADWD chapter that was moved to TWOW).

Her last chapter, she thought of him kissing her twice, the first time, she seemed bitter that he left her, and the second, she placed him in the marriage bed (after the dream of him getting in bed with her on her wedding night). Also in the last chapter is the Sweetrobin/Sandor parallel, where she pretends he is her protector, she's afraid they will fall off the saddle, and GRRM uses the same language as in the scene where Sandor protected her and helped her back on her saddle...

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/SF_Targaryens_Valyria_Sansa_Martells_and_More

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I like Clegane poetry. He has quite the way of turning a phrase. Very modern.

"If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with.”
“True knights protect the weak.”
He snorted. “There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don’t ever believe any different.”
Sansa backed away from him. “You’re awful.”
“I’m honest. It’s the world that’s awful. Now fly away, little bird, I’m sick of you peeping at me.”

--------------

“The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp’s head and flew off.”

Sheep and wolves and mutton - weak for strong.

Sharp steel and strong arms.

And the flying little bird, peeping at him. Then she flies away again, shitting on the Imp's head.

He's creative with language, that's for sure. Here he seems to be expressing his fear. Albeit, in a Hound-kind of way. Ultimately, he's irritated that Sansa keeps questioning him. She understands, if only to think of his brother, but she's getting that he's worried.

I do think there's been enough hints for the future meeting of Sandor and Sansa in the show. Agree, they just want to pull this out of a hat, it seems, but they did leave the audience with a character they might love and root for. Unfortunately, we did not get to see enough of Sansa and the Hound's scenes together. For instance, the above that I quoted, that was an interesting encounter. That book Sansa, at the end of AFfC, has arrived at thinking no more of 'true knights', of not believing in them, and yet believing that the Hound would be there to rescue her from Marillion, of thinking that all he left her was his 'bloody cloak' - but he's not there for her - it seems to suggest that he is the 'knight' she wants. That he is her 'knight' seems evident to me, both in the novels and in the show.

Of course, I hated having Littlefinger tell Sansa of the Hound's burns by his brother. But I wonder if that indicates there will be, at least for the show, a future meeting of Littlefinger and Sandor. I think it might. Littlefinger says the Hound will kill her if she ever reveals the story, and his slight smirk at the end suggests to me that he's saying this to scare her, and enjoying it. But the viewer knows that show Sansa's last words to the Hound are, "You won't hurt me." And that's an odd way of leaving it, what with him then turning and walking out the door. He's hurt, I suppose. He's there trying to rescue her and she thinks he'll hurt her, but then looks at him (with her heart? - he's wearing his on his sleeve in this scene), and realizes she's wrong, he won't hurt her. But . . . that's it? Doesn't make any sense if you say, "Well, they'll never see each other again." So, my opinion is, they will. And it will be a Littlefinger / Sansa / Sandor showdown. And Sansa, unbeknownst to Littlefinger, will choose Sandor, knowing, in fact, that he won't hurt her.

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In terms of show-only lines, even though the show cut out so many of their interactions, they gave him the line "You will be grateful one day for the hateful things I do, when I'm all that stands between you and your 'beloved' king" - he essentially told her he would kill Joffrey to protect her! Althoug I'm not sure if the viewers, and Sansa herself, immediately realized that, because he said it in his Hound-way...


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I like Clegane poetry. He has quite the way of turning a phrase. Very modern.

Sheep and wolves and mutton - weak for strong.

Sharp steel and strong arms.

And the flying little bird, peeping at him. Then she flies away again, shitting on the Imp's head.

He's creative with language, that's for sure. Here he seems to be expressing his fear. Albeit, in a Hound-kind of way. Ultimately, he's irritated that Sansa keeps questioning him. She understands, if only to think of his brother, but she's getting that he's worried.

I do think there's been enough hints for the future meeting of Sandor and Sansa in the show. Agree, they just want to pull this out of a hat, it seems, but they did leave the audience with a character they might love and root for. Unfortunately, we did not get to see enough of Sansa and the Hound's scenes together. For instance, the above that I quoted, that was an interesting encounter. That book Sansa, at the end of AFfC, has arrived at thinking no more of 'true knights', of not believing in them, and yet believing that the Hound would be there to rescue her from Marillion, of thinking that all he left her was his 'bloody cloak' - but he's not there for her - it seems to suggest that he is the 'knight' she wants. That he is her 'knight' seems evident to me, both in the novels and in the show.

Of course, I hated having Littlefinger tell Sansa of the Hound's burns by his brother. But I wonder if that indicates there will be, at least for the show, a future meeting of Littlefinger and Sandor. I think it might. Littlefinger says the Hound will kill her if she ever reveals the story, and his slight smirk at the end suggests to me that he's saying this to scare her, and enjoying it. But the viewer knows that show Sansa's last words to the Hound are, "You won't hurt me." And that's an odd way of leaving it, what with him then turning and walking out the door. He's hurt, I suppose. He's there trying to rescue her and she thinks he'll hurt her, but then looks at him (with her heart? - he's wearing his on his sleeve in this scene), and realizes she's wrong, he won't hurt her. But . . . that's it? Doesn't make any sense if you say, "Well, they'll never see each other again." So, my opinion is, they will. And it will be a Littlefinger / Sansa / Sandor showdown. And Sansa, unbeknownst to Littlefinger, will choose Sandor, knowing, in fact, that he won't hurt her.

This is an interesting take on LF's speech to Sansa and I had not considered this. This could indeed set-up a meeting between Sandor/LF/Sansa in the future!

Sandor has a really interesting way of expressing himself and his speech is riddled with violent and crude imagery. The most controversial being:

"I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf"

Although crude, horrible and violent, it tells us so much about what Sandor's state of mind and where his thoughts lie and in Sandor-speak, dare I say it is actually rather passionate. I was certainly curious to see if the show included this line and I was pleased with the way they did it as it was more an expression of desire and regret rather than purely destruction (as many interpret the book quote to be). In relation to your show quote, I would also include from the books:

“I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.”

At this moment, Sandor has just 'fucked the king' and deserted the Lannister's and the first thing he does is offer his allegiance to Sansa. He is Sansa's dog now and is offering his services. Sandor see's his worth in his ability to kill and by offering this to Sansa, he is basically offering her everything he has.

Even his 'Little Bird' pet name for Sansa was initially intended to mock but develops into a term of endearment. It would have been nice if the show used this a little more (but I am nitpicking again).

Gosh Sandor is an old romantic at heart.

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I do think that Sandor is alive. I mean there have been so many hints and especially whenever people refuse to confirm or deny it - that's a good thing in my mind. I mean even whenever Alex Graves was asked about it he said something along the lines of "As far as the story how I told it - The Hound's gone. How could he have survived that?" I mean, I understand that a lot of people seem to know him as 'The Hound' but surely by now they have heard of the Gravedigger Theory? It's one of the most well known and most supported Theories out there for this series. It's only feeding into the possibility that his violent persona 'The Hound' is dead, but Sandor Clegane is alive and on the Quiet Isle. That being said, I figure that whenever he does make another appearance (and I'm really thinking/hoping he will since he's my absolute favorite character) I think it will have something to do with either Gregor, Sansa or Arya..maybe a mixture of those. Gregor, because a lot of people think there will be a 'Cleganebowl' where Sandor and Gregorstein battle it out, because let's be honest here - killing Gregor is basically what Sandor wants most. I can see that being one of the very few things to pull him away from his new 'life' on the Quiet Isle. He thought Gregor was dead, right? The Elder brother mentioned that it was the one thing he wanted, and even that was taken away from him. If it comes out that Robert Strong is Gregor, I can see Sandor wanting to face him.

Another possibility, and one that I'm personally hoping for..even more than the Cleganebowl (since I am afraid that Sandor might die fighting him if that happens), the one that I'm hoping for is a reunion with Sansa. The Quiet Isle and The Vale aren't that far apart, so it wouldn't be a stretch. I can see it happening. Honestly I think that Sansa will end up killing Littlefinger, or taking him out in some way. Already she's becoming extremely manipulative, and even in the show she said last season 'I know what you want'. Sophie Turner also confirmed that Sansa will be using her sexuality against Littlefinger to get what she wants, so it's not a stretch to say that she will play the player. I can see the story ending with Sansa becoming Queen/Ruler of the North and Sandor swearing into her service as her Sworn Shield or something like that. He isn't exactly on good terms with the Lannister's and if he leaves the Quiet Isle he would need a place to go.

Then there's Arya. I loved their relationship, and came to see them as sort of a father/daughter or mentor/student type relationship. I think that they came to care about one another a lot more than either let on. Neither would never admit it, but especially in the show, Sandor literally risked his life for Arya. He had nobody to sell her to, no gain from it, and yet he continued to look out for her and protect her and try to teach her how she needed to be in order to survive in that world, and then he got into that fight with Brienne, attempting to protect Arya from what he thought was someone working for the Lannisters. I can see his storyline involving Arya in the future as well, although that's less likely, unless they were to meet up both going to King's Landing with the intent to kill. The Lannisters are still on Arya's list.

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Gravedigger is in, Cleganebowl is out, per Elio.

Gravedigger:

Question: A question however, do either of you think the ending of Sandor Clegane in the show gives more credit to the Gravedigger theory? The theory that Sandor is still alive on the Quiet Isles. Sandor was gravely (pardon the pun) wounded but someone of his physical strength and resilience he probably lay there bleeding and in pain for another day or night... Meaning there is a window of time for someone to stumble upon him. Thoughts? 

Elio: That one is pretty much 100% true, we're just waiting for the books to catch up with us!

Cleganebowl:

I know people want to discuss popular theories. Stuff like Cleganebowl. Short answer: Hell no. Don't believe that one, at all.

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"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

This one is so good, it's such a great I love you moment, Clegane poetry style, but also his life story. It says so much, why he is the way he is, how he's been looking after her, and how much he loves her. "I could keep you safe," goes with the marriage symbolism (the kiss, the cloak). No one kept him safe, but he wants to keep her safe. "They're all afraid of me," and sadly, it was his defense mechanism, the Hound persona, that left him so alone. So a little of Beauty and the Beast here, too. "No one would hurt you again," how much it bothered him to see them do it. And he kept remembering what they did, someone had to remember, everyone else forgot. Something else they cut from the show. Has to be my favorite moment. Although I thought Rory delivered "I could take you with me" beautifully on the show.

More on the brother stuff, I don't think he wants to kill Gregor. He had a chance to kill him, and he passed it up. Ned noticed he never once went for Gregor's head after he lost his helm. I think that's telling us Cleganebowl is out, too. If he didn't want to kill his brother (because he was being a true knight for Sansa), he doesn't want to kill his brother's corpse. And the whole point of the Hound slowly turning into Sandor again, after meeting Sansa, is that love is driving him now, not hate. I thought they did a good job in that scene with Arya (where they were talking about hate, the one with the Sansa parallel) showing this, the change in direction, Arya was heading to the place he'd been, and he was heading away from it. Ayra lost the ones she loved, and he found someone to love. It didn't matter that he didn't have her, or perhaps never would.

And of course, that's all Beauty and the Beast stuff, too. That's the framework for their story, and he's been telling that really well since book 1.

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LSH will not be in the show, Jaime will go to Dorne, we will not see anything about Riverlands probably. In the serie D&D cut out a lot of boring and pointless storylines, we have not casting news about Quiet Island, so my theory is that Sansa will find Sandor and she will cure him. The Hound is not in Riverlands, hi is in the Vale, precisely he is on the ROAD that leads to Bloody Gate, Arya repeats twice the Bloody Gate is ten miles. In episode 8 Sansa left the Eyrie and only 10 miles separate her from the Hound.


Sophie Turner said in her lates interview: a big change, and familiar faces for Sansa Stark in Season 5



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Brienne is not so important for Sansa's arc like Sandor is. Writers need to create a completely new story for Sansa without spoilers from TWOW. I guess it might be hilarious the interaction between Sandor(in the role of guardsmen), Sansa and Petyr.


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I don’t know about seeing the Quiet Isle. Having Brienne know that the Hound is ‘dead’ solves some of her going there. The rest, revealing herself to the Elder Brother, that kind of deeper characterization is something the show hasn’t delved into.



Show-wise, Sandor is in the Vale. Book-wise, he’s in the Riverlands. Certainly, mentioning the maester and then having him yelling at Arya to kill him brings to mind,



I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again.


Plus, having Qyburn, the de-chained maester, tend to Gregor while a more holy man tends to Sandor is a nice parallel. The show has the Hound say he had put women in the ground in his scene with Bronn. Perhaps the reference is a nod to book readers, or perhaps they’ll explore that more. Having Robert Strong, once Tywin’s ‘dog’, protecting Cersei while Sandor protects Sansa is something I think will eventually happen. The unholy is a theme explored with the former; the more holy a theme with the latter. And, no, I don’t mean it literally, but more figuratively. Septon Sandor is not going to happen.



Brienne and Pod will run into Sansa and Littlefinger in the Vale. I don’t think they’ll recognize her, in her guise as Alayne. They will probably reveal they are looking for Arya and Sansa. But being associated with the Lannisters has already proven to be against them. It’s possible Brienne will say she killed the Hound, who was with Arya. That the Hound is dead also seems news Sansa is likely to learn in TWoW.



For Sandor, the show barely touched on his interest in women. Not like this:


A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman.


There was “you like fucking, and drinking, and singing, but killing, killing’s the thing you love, you’re just like me, only smaller” in the scene with Bronn. I laughed to see that. Ah, he likes those things! Gee, he’s more than just a dog. And the show having him say his happy memory would be Sansa, that finally references his interest as a man. Sure, it’s delivered to get Arya to kill him. But show-wise, we can look back and know he didn’t consider fucking her bloody. He couldn’t get her consent to go with him. So he left. The Hound wanted Sansa to agree to go with him. His methods and manners are sometimes beastly, but in the final analysis, he has acted honorably in regard to both Stark sisters. A case of “Do the right thing.”



History and Lore of Westeros - House Clegane:



“Honor, glory, lies to make idiot boys want knighthood, and idiot girls spread their legs for it.”


“When we’re done, we’ll see how many people still believe in songs and fairy tales.”



I suspect this is loaded with irony.


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I don’t know about seeing the Quiet Isle. Having Brienne know that the Hound is ‘dead’ solves some of her going there. The rest, revealing herself to the Elder Brother, that kind of deeper characterization is something the show hasn’t delved into.

Show-wise, Sandor is in the Vale. Book-wise, he’s in the Riverlands. Certainly, mentioning the maester and then having him yelling at Arya to kill him brings to mind,

He's technically in the Riverlands, but incredibly close to the Vale; QI is practically on the 'border', so to speak, between the Vale and the Riverlands.

I don't think we'll see the QI, especially with how D&D feel about religion, and if we do, Brienne won't go there; but I really don't see the possibility of Sansa curing Sandor - she'd have to find him immediately for that to be the case, in the episode 5.01 at the latest, and that's not happening. I do think, however, that when we finally see him again, it will be through Sansa.

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Brienne and Pod will run into Sansa and Littlefinger in the Vale. I don’t think they’ll recognize her, in her guise as Alayne.

That would be a very tough sell. Especially for Podrick, who was around her every day for the duration of her being married to his boss. Her hair is dyed; she didn't have plastic surgery.

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This is the show. I do not recall when Pod was shown around Sansa. Besides, he could be out looking for the damn horses, or taking a piss; he's being portrayed as a bumbler. Or maybe he's just captivated by that modern belt buckle she's wearing.



Or showSansa could say she wants to stay with Littlefinger, not trusting Brienne and Pod, just like Arya did not.


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Clegane romantic poetry. :lol: And you are right, it's all about putting everything together, and there is so much to put together. It's a beautifully told story, in the books, anyway. I am very negative on the show, but season 4, along with seeing La Belle et la Bete and noticing the Blackwater parallels, convinced me they are going there on the show, too.

Also, the "one happy memory" line stands out so much. It wasn't needed at all, to convey goading Arya, and it's not in the books, but it's a really good line, and very beautiful on its own, she was the one happy memory he had. So what if this is about the unkiss. GRRM refers to the unkiss in terms of a memory (he also says she will remember him kissing her in future volumes plural, so I suspect there was a reference in the ADWD chapter that was moved to TWOW).

Her last chapter, she thought of him kissing her twice, the first time, she seemed bitter that he left her, and the second, she placed him in the marriage bed (after the dream of him getting in bed with her on her wedding night). Also in the last chapter is the Sweetrobin/Sandor parallel, where she pretends he is her protector, she's afraid they will fall off the saddle, and GRRM uses the same language as in the scene where Sandor protected her and helped her back on her saddle...

I really liked the 'one happy memory' line, I felt it epitomised the hound perfectly in just one sentence; longing, desire, sadness, regret, hope, at the end of it all, he just wanted acceptance and love.

I have wondered if the show will attempt to weave in the unkiss as this is all internal to Sansa. A way around it could be for Sansa to confide in a friend. I have often wondered if the 'unkiss' will slowly develop into 'unsexytimes' the more and more she fanstises about it as she seems to increasingly add bits on everytime she thinks about it.

Brienne and Pod will run into Sansa and Littlefinger in the Vale. I don’t think they’ll recognize her, in her guise as Alayne. They will probably reveal they are looking for Arya and Sansa. But being associated with the Lannisters has already proven to be against them. It’s possible Brienne will say she killed the Hound, who was with Arya. That the Hound is dead also seems news Sansa is likely to learn in TWoW.

This could be a good catalyst for the show to demonstrate Sansa's feelings for Sandor in reaction to hearing about the hounds 'death'.

I feel sorry for Sansa already and she hasn't even heard the news yet.It would be even more interesting to know her reaction to Saltpans and whether she believes the hound is behind it all.

There was “you like fucking, and drinking, and singing, but killing, killing’s the thing you love, you’re just like me, only smaller” in the scene with Bronn. I laughed to see that. Ah, he likes those things! Gee, he’s more than just a dog. And the show having him say his happy memory would be Sansa, that finally references his interest as a man. Sure, it’s delivered to get Arya to kill him. But show-wise, we can look back and know he didn’t consider fucking her bloody. He couldn’t get her consent to go with him. So he left. The Hound wanted Sansa to agree to go with him. His methods and manners are sometimes beastly, but in the final analysis, he has acted honorably in regard to both Stark sisters. A case of “Do the right thing.”

In the books there are several other mentions that Sandor has manly urges. His appreciation of Sansa's 'teats' which I think was his attempt at a compliment/(very bad) flirting. Varys also mentions this:

“The dog is never far from his master’s heels,” he’d observed to Varys, “but all men sleep. And some gamble and whore and visit winesinks as well.”

“The Hound does all these things, if that is your question.”

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I really liked the 'one happy memory' line, I felt it epitomised the hound perfectly in just one sentence; longing, desire, sadness, regret, hope, at the end of it all, he just wanted acceptance and love.

I have wondered if the show will attempt to weave in the unkiss as this is all internal to Sansa. A way around it could be for Sansa to confide in a friend. I have often wondered if the 'unkiss' will slowly develop into 'unsexytimes' the more and more she fanstises about it as she seems to increasingly add bits on everytime she thinks about it.

It was a good line, said a lot in a few words. Unsexytimes! :lol: No signs of casting Myranda, and they've already used her name for another character. I suspect we will see more of their version of things next season, which is never as good.

This could be a good catalyst for the show to demonstrate Sansa's feelings for Sandor in reaction to hearing about the hounds 'death'.

I feel sorry for Sansa already and she hasn't even heard the news yet.It would be even more interesting to know her reaction to Saltpans and whether she believes the hound is behind it all.

She won't believe it, Jaime even questioned it, are you sure it was him. GRRM has been following not only Beauty and the Beast, but La Belle et la Bete specifically, and there's a part where Belle defends the Beast, she says the Beast is good.

I also liked this part, "Sometimes his bearing is regal, but sometimes he almost limps, as though he were the victim of some terrible affliction." I bet they will make him limp, Rory did a limping thing coming in to Comic Con, hmmm...

In the books there are several other mentions that Sandor has manly urges. His appreciation of Sansa's 'teats' which I think was his attempt at a compliment/(very bad) flirting. Varys also mentions this:

I thought it was hilarious when you said how could a lady resist! That would be so funny if she turned it around, and he was speechless.

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There was “you like fucking, and drinking, and singing, but killing, killing’s the thing you love, you’re just like me, only smaller” in the scene with Bronn. I laughed to see that. Ah, he likes those things! Gee, he’s more than just a dog.

There's also:

"It's warm in here. We've got beautiful women. And good brown ale. Plenty for everyone. And all you want is to put one of us in the cold ground."

And we saw the beautiful woman part, "your pretty sister," and the good brown ale part, "How can a man not keep ale in his home?" So what's left, putting bodies in the cold ground.

History and Lore of Westeros - House Clegane:

I suspect this is loaded with irony.

Ha ha ha! That's perfect.

Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOcQ_hD44gs

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