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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Does it seem plausible that Brienne...

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I think so.


In the books Brienne always talks about men underestimating her etc which gives her an edge.


Physically they're about the same size/strength, and the Hound was basicly starving and suffering from infected wounds while Brienne just came fresh from King's Landing wielding a Valyrian steel sword and custommade mastercrafted armour.



I don't really understand why people find it so implausible that she won that fight.


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She won because she bashed his head repeatedly with a huge rock. Totally plausible. Podrick could've beat him that way.


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In the books, no way.

In the show, they've turned Brienne into a ruthless killing machine, she has a Valyrian steel sword and the Hound was in a weakened state, so yes.

That does not excuse the scene though, it never should've happened in the first place.

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Yes, easily. Both in the books and the programme.




I think so.


In the books Brienne always talks about men underestimating her etc which gives her an edge.


Physically they're about the same size/strength, and the Hound was basicly starving and suffering from infected wounds while Brienne just came fresh from King's Landing wielding a Valyrian steel sword and custommade mastercrafted armour.



I don't really understand why people find it so implausible that she won that fight.




Exactly. Brienne had been staying at inns, eating Hotpie's hot pie etc. She is huge, very muscular, and constantly underestimated by male opponents. Now I am not sure that the Hound would underestimate her, being an old soldier, but he was tired and injured. A comment from the first episode (too many to kill on an empty stomach) pops into mind.


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In the books, no way.

In the show, they've turned Brienne into a ruthless killing machine, she has a Valyrian steel sword and the Hound was in a weakened state, so yes.

That does not excuse the scene though, it never should've happened in the first place.

Not sure why so many people bring that up, she doesn't do anything with it that she couldn't have done with a normal sword.(Within the 'logic' of the show)

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Yes.



Does it seem plausible that they can randomly run into each other in the way they did in the show and not have it feel contrived and hackney.



Nope.


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Not sure why so many people bring that up, she doesn't do anything with it that she couldn't have done with a normal sword.(Within the 'logic' of the show)

Valyrian steal is lighter isn't it? Plus it'd give a "confidence" boost? I dunno.

I'm just sayin, having freshly forged top quality sword and armor would give her a slight advantage over rusty armor and a sword that probably hasn't been properly honed or cleaned in a while.

I'm certainly not defending the scene as it was, but in the show, all variables taken into account, it seems plausible that she'd defeat him. In the books, no way.

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Physically they are not the same size and strength. Not at all. Books and show. No, no, no. She does not match the Hound's brute strength, even weakened.



And they didn't call out that the bite was bothering him. And it just wasn't right all around. It undid a lot of what they'd built up before in the story. It's like Jaime killing Alton, all over again.



Like one review said, the fanfic fight nuked the characters in the process.


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Physically they are not the same size and strength. Not at all. Books and show. No, no, no. She does not match the Hound's brute strength, even weakened.

And they didn't call out that the bite was bothering him. And it just wasn't right all around. It undid a lot of what they'd built up before in the story. It's like Jaime killing Alton, all over again.

Like one review said, the fanfic fight nuked the characters in the process.

They did, Arya called out when they were at the Bloody Gate, the Hound was weak and slow. That being said, it didn't look like that in the fight, but...

In the books, no way.

In the show, they've turned Brienne into a ruthless killing machine, she has a Valyrian steel sword and the Hound was in a weakened state, so yes.

That does not excuse the scene though, it never should've happened in the first place.

...I agree with this, it should have never happened, and all it did was weakened both the Hound and Brienne as characters.

In my humble opinion the last 3 episodes of Arya/hound storyline was the worst part of the season (from the gift of mercy's "nothing is nothing" to his death), sadly since it was really good for the first half of the season

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Physically they are not the same size and strength. Not at all. Books and show. No, no, no. She does not match the Hound's brute strength, even weakened.

The Hound is possibly slightly larger. Briene is the same size as Robert.

From the words of the writer.

'Brienne is well over six feet tall, but not close to seven, no. Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series. Shorter than Hodor and the Greatjon, maybe a bit shorter than the Hound, maybe roughly the same height as Robert.'

Brienne's muscles are constantly referred to in the series. So it is not a question of 'not at all', but more a 'maybe.'

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Adding this, Rory confirms the reality of it was very different, he's much bigger, stronger, and had to hold back so he wouldn't hurt her, which is what I was saying, too:

Remember, I'm fighting a girl, I'm a big 6'6" ex-lumberjack, and she's a lady, and she looks great in armor, but I'm a big strong guy, so I've got to look strong but not knock out a leading actress, so it was pretty challenging.

http://www.accesshollywood.com/george-rr-martins-theory-on-why-the-queen-didnt-sit-on-the-game-of-thrones-iron-throne_article_97106

There are pictures of Gwendoline Christie, she's just a very tall woman. Men and women, even the same height, are built very differently, in tems of strength. She's 3" shorter in real life, but there's a world of difference in their physiques. You can't change the laws of physics, Jim.

In the books, Elio estimated the Hound at 6'10" on a recent podcast, and Brienne is shorter than Robert at 6'6" so most estimate her at 6'5". She only beat Jaime extremely weakened (this was repeatedly called out, he was malnourished) and handcuffed. The Hound was described as muscled like a bull. And it's not just about strength but experience in a fight.

Let's look at what the show established.

Brienne -

Nobody knew who she was. Renly was holding open a spot for Barriston Selmy, finally settled on her largely based on her loyalty to him.

Beat Loras in a tourney setting. On the show, he's not a big man at all. Look at the scene when the Hound saves his ass, for comparison.

Killed two of her fellow Kingsguard (yet another fanfic scene).

Beat Jaime. Also very much weakened (over a long period of time, while imprisoned) and handcuffed. Even so, he managed to disarm her and put up a fight.

Beat three cowardly stragglers (again, not big men) who were picking on women (the implication was, they raped them) by taking them unaware.

The Hound -

Renowned as one of the top warriors in the land.

Bodyguard to the prince, then named to the Kingsguard.

Season 1, fought off the Mountain, who was trying to kill him. The Hound was not trying to kill him, but matched him.

Survived skirmishes vs. experienced warriors in season 1.

Same for season 2, this time full scale battle, commander of men, complete with signature cutting men in half moves as a highlight. Accomplished this even while at a disadvantage (fire all around, he has severe trauma issues with fire).

Beat the guy at the name day fight without even trying.

Rescued Sansa from the mob, everyone else was too chicken to go back out.

Season 3, defeated Beric Dondarrion, even though he had an unfair advantage (using a burning weapon against a man with severe fire trauma issues)

Took on multiple Frey men and won.

Season 4, took on multiple men at the inn and won.

Had a price on his head set extra high because no one wanted to take him on.

Books, it's even better for him, worse for her...

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No, there are pictures of GC, she's just a very tall woman. Men and women, even the same height, are built very differently, in tems of strength. She's 3" shorter in real life, but there's a world of difference in their physiques. You can't change the laws of physics, Jim.

In the books, Elio estimated the Hound at 6'10" on a recent podcast, and Brienne is shorter than Robert at 6'6" so most estimate her at 6'5". She only beat Jaime extremely weakened (this was repeatedly called out, he was malnourished) and handcuffed. The Hound was described as muscled like a bull. And it's not just about strength but experience in a fight.

Pictures of Gregor?

Martin writes the books, Martin gets to decide how big people are, what Brienne is like is established by his writing, not pictures. So Brienne is same as Rob, and close to Hound, and has muscles. Everyone who fights her underestimates just how good/strong she is.

In the show, both are good fighters.

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No, like I said, it's even worse for her in the books. I was taking the show as the best case example for her, and it still doesn't stand up.

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No, like I said, it's even worse for her in the books. I was taking the show as the best case example for her, and it still doesn't stand up.

Martin states they are close, so it's obviously not automatically worse for her in the books, sizewise anyway. The author has more authority here.

Strength, Hound is most likely still stronger. But my guesstimate is by not enough to guarantee a win everytime.

Skillwise it's up in the air.

If there is stuff from the books, I'd be happy to read it.

I plan to reread the books soon.

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She won Renly's melee by beating Loras, the guy who defeated the Mountain in jousting. I think that establishes her as one of the top fighters in the land. And going against that, there's . . . nothing. We haven't seen anyone defeat her, all we know is that she's a tournament champion.



Add in that she has superior equipment and the Hound is weakened by his infection (Arya told him he's walking slower now) and I've got her as the odds-on favorite in that fight.


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Nope, it's even a worse case for her in the books. And Loras "defeated" the Mountain by cheating, show and books. That's why Sandor had to save his ass. And they only pointed out he was weakened two episodes ago and never mentioned it here, when it mattered

We went through all this on the nitpicking thread anyway. They messed up.

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No, there are pictures of Gwendoline Christie, she's just a very tall woman. Men and women, even the same height, are built very differently, in tems of strength. She's 3" shorter in real life, but there's a world of difference in their physiques. You can't change the laws of physics, Jim.

In the books, Elio estimated the Hound at 6'10" on a recent podcast, and Brienne is shorter than Robert at 6'6" so most estimate her at 6'5". She only beat Jaime extremely weakened (this was repeatedly called out, he was malnourished) and handcuffed. The Hound was described as muscled like a bull. And it's not just about strength but experience in a fight.

Let's look at what the show established.

Brienne -

Nobody knew who she was. Renly was holding open a spot for Barriston Selmy, finally settled on her largely based on her loyalty to him.

Beat Loras in a tourney setting. On the show, he's not a big man at all. Look at the scene when the Hound saves his ass, for comparison.

Killed two of her fellow Kingsguard (yet another fanfic scene).

Beat Jaime. Also very much weakened (over a long period of time, while imprisoned) and handcuffed. Even so, he managed to disarm her and put up a fight.

Beat three cowardly stragglers (again, not big men) who were picking on women (the implication was, they raped them) by taking them unaware.

The Hound -

Renowned as one of the top warriors in the land.

Bodyguard to the prince, then named to the Kingsguard.

Season 1, fought off the Mountain, who was trying to kill him. The Hound was not trying to kill him, but matched him.

Survived skirmishes vs. experienced warriors in season 1.

Same for season 2, this time full scale battle, commander of men, complete with signature cutting men in half moves as a highlight. Accomplished this even while at a disadvantage (fire all around, he has severe trauma issues with fire).

Beat the guy at the name day fight without even trying.

Rescued Sansa from the mob, everyone else was too chicken to go back out.

Season 3, defeated Beric Dondarrion, even though he had an unfair advantage (using a burning weapon against a man with severe fire trauma issues)

Took on multiple Frey men and won.

Season 4, took on multiple men at the inn and won.

Had a price on his head set extra high because no one wanted to take him on.

Books, it's even better for him, worse for her...

Half your points address fame and notoriety. If you followed fighting sports like MMA you'd realize that that means much less than what people give credit for. Massive upsets happen all the time. Can you imagine how people reacted when Matt Serra knocked out Georges St. Pierre? Nobody thought it was possible.

The rest of your points hinge on the argument that we have seen Sandor fight more and better people than Brienne, i.e. the show showcased Sandor's skills more often than it did Brienne's. That means absolutely nothing. By that logic, from reading aSoIaF we would have to conclude that Tyrion could beat Arthur Dayne in a fight because we've seen some massively impressive displays from Tyrion on Green Fork and Blackwater, and we never really saw anything from Dayne except for one fight that he lost.

There's not even a single example of Sandor beating someone that beat Brienne in a fight. Even then, unless either of the fights were completely one-sided or there was proof that it wasn't too circumstantial, that wouldn't be enough. I can name you a ton of examples in MMA of three matches that had rock-paper-scissors results. Of course, anybody knows that fighting prowess is not a linear hierarchy because there are too many personal circumstantial variations (psychology, physical handicaps, environmental factors, people using weapons they're not most comfortable with, their blood sugar and other metabolic states, etc).

Finally, Sandor was clearly weakened by the bite. Arya mentioned an episode later (at the Vale entrance) that it was slowing him down.

Also... you think Sandor wasn't trying to kill Gregor? Now that's a massive assumption. We all know how badly he wants Gregor dead and he rarely ever gets the opportunity.

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Nope, it's even a worse case for her in the books. And Loras "defeated" the Mountain by cheating, show and books. That's why Sandor had to save his ass. And they only pointed out he was weakened two episodes ago and never mentioned it here, when it mattered

We went through all this on the nitpicking thread anyway. They messed up.

I think in the show he is more of just a gay guy who flounces around, but in the books Loras is undeniably one of the most renowned warriors in the realm. And Brienne defeated him. Plus two Kingsguards at a time. And nobody has defeated her.

Even if you do choose to forget about the Hound's wasting infection which hasn't been cured since it was discussed twice in separate scenes, I don't see any evidence that Brienne is not fully up to the challenge of taking him on, even if he's healthy. I'd say it's a pick 'em fight, at best, if he's healthy, and he's not so my money would definitely be on her.

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Also... you think Sandor wasn't trying to kill Gregor? Now that's a massive assumption. We all know how badly he wants Gregor dead and he rarely ever gets the opportunity.

I was with you until you said the above. There's a reason Martin included in that scene the observation by Ned Stark that Sandor never went for Gregor's unprotected head (he had discarded his helmet, remember?) If Sandor had really wanted to kill Gregor then he would have taken the obvious course of attacking his head. Sandor was described as simply blocking all of Gregor's blows while the enraged Gregor was trying to kill him.

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