[BOOK SPOILERS] Does it seem plausible that Brienne...

[Bridgeburners]

I was with you until you said the above. There's a reason Martin included in that scene the observation by Ned Stark that Sandor never went for Gregor's unprotected head (he had discarded his helmet, remember?) If Sandor had really wanted to kill Gregor then he would have taken the obvious course of attacking his head. Sandor was described as simply blocking all of Gregor's blows while the enraged Gregor was trying to kill him.

You're right, I just looked at that passage.

[Deadwood]

There's not even a single example of Sandor beating someone that beat Brienne in a fight. Even then, unless either of the fights were completely one-sided or there was proof that it wasn't too circumstantial, that wouldn't be enough. I can name you a ton of examples in MMA of three matches that had rock-paper-scissors results. Of course, anybody knows that fighting prowess is not a linear hierarchy because there are too many personal circumstantial variations (psychology, physical handicaps, environmental factors, people using weapons they're not most comfortable with, their blood sugar and other metabolic states, etc).

Excellent points. I've fought with longsword. It's tough. Not to the death obviously, but sparred. And it can be anyone's game.

[ambi76]

Gods people are really obsessed with this "who is the better one", aren't they?

The teenaged Brienne from the books probably wouldn't be able to beat the Hound (maybe if he was very sick already like Jaime), the older more experienced Brienne from the show obviously could (with some dirty fighting from both sides). Not sure what's so outragous about that.

[Ice_Specter]

Will have to agree with Le Cygne. I just can't see it happening. The fight should have been over when he got on top of her and started punching her. Regardless, that scene itself was contrived because of them meeting in the first place.

[Tolsimir]

If they would fight with a sword? Sure, anyhing can happen. Especially since Brienne had the better sword and was supposedly in better conditions,

Fist to fist? Never.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Well at least La Cygne went to the trouble of compiling some reasons to believe The Hound to be a badass. Well done, I believe you. But you're less convincing on the reasons not to believe that Brienne is just as big a badass. I don't see any evidence for that at all, to tell the truth.

The Hound is a little bit bigger, most likely. Which means what exactly in a swordfight, other than very damn little? Is being a little bit bigger more important than having inferior equipment?

Between the two of them, she is the only one to have won a tourney. And how long was she in the ring fighting a bear with a wooden sword before Jaime showed up? OK, well, then would somebody remind me again who we've seen defeat her in a fair fight? Oh yeah, I remember. Nobody.

The impression I get from the books, and the show doesn't contradict it, is that she is one of the baddest badasses in the land . . . just like the Hound. I really don't get the basis for this thread.

[CersiGoesCrazy]

Slightly off topic....if Brienne survives her recent capture and if Hound is the gravedigger....maybe they'd meet on the Quiet Isle and eventually be a couple? Too crackpot?

[theriveryeti]

I had more trouble with the fact that she bit his ear off than her beating him altogether. Still, if not for the situation of setting up the mercy scene, I wouldn't have though the Hound would've lost in a hundred years.

[theriveryeti]

Slightly off topic....if Brienne survives her recent capture and if Hound is the gravedigger....maybe they'd meet on the Quiet Isle and eventually be a couple? Too crackpot?

A girl who is the only "true knight" falling for someone who wants no part of being a knight? I think it's too crackpot, but it is interesting in the books that Brienne is the one who runs across the gravedigger.

[LadySoftheart]

Ok, so I hated the fight between Brienne and Sandor because it had the sticky handprints of ridiculous plot contrivance all over it. With that said, I don't find it that implausible that Brienne would narrowly defeat a weakened Hound in a fight, particularly not Show Brienne. (And yes, Jaime was weakened and out of shape in his fight with her but he also was trying to kill her and she was NOT trying to kill him because she needed to bring him to KL alive - so she too, like Jaime, was handicapped by having to defeat Jaime Lannister without fatally wounding him.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the books Brienne won the melee at Bitterbridge, not just a single combat with Loras Tyrell, which suggests that she defeated several of Renly's knights before she even got to Loras, and Loras is apparently one of the best swordsmen Jaime has ever seen.

So my issues with the scene had nothing to do with the outcome of the fight and everything to do with the setup for it to happen in the first place.

ETA: And no I don't think Brienne and the Gravedigger are destined to have a thing for each other because Sandor and Brienne are both half of a Beauty and the Beast narrative with other people: Sandor with Sansa (for good or ill, in the sense that I think he has some future role in her fate though I hope they are never physically intimate!) and Brienne with Jaime (didn't Gwendoline Christie even say that Martin had told her that Brienne and Jaime are a genderswapped Beauty and the Beast?) So it would be a bit odd to have the "Beasts" together!

[Hodor's Dragon]

* * *

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the books Brienne won the melee at Bitterbridge, not just a single combat with Loras Tyrell, which suggests that she defeated several of Renly's knights before she even got to Loras, and Loras is apparently one of the best swordsmen Jaime has ever seen.

So my issues with the scene had nothing to do with the outcome of the fight and everything to do with the setup for it to happen in the first place.

* * *

You're not wrong. There were 116 knights in the melee, and Brienne won it. To repeat myself, she is a renowned badass, and I've not a problem in the world with her defeating a weakened Hound when she had superior equipment.

As to your other point, any qualms I have over the contrivance of their meeting were utterly destroyed by the scene. IMO, that scene was fantastic, one of the best scenes of the entire wonderful season. Brienne, the Hound and Arya were all utterly true to form,* and the dialogue and acting were superb.

And while Brienne won the fight, the Hound kicked her ass in the pre-fight yakkin'! ("SAFETY! Where the fuck's that?!?" or "Tell me that's not Lannister gold, Brienne of fucking Tarth.")

*Although I don't think Pod would've allowed Arya to escape without his seeing where she went - that's my only quibble with the scene. (Pod may be a shitty cook, but he always steps up when it counts.)

[The BlackBear]

She won Renly's melee by beating Loras, the guy who defeated the Mountain in jousting. I think that establishes her as one of the top fighters in the land. And going against that, there's . . . nothing. We haven't seen anyone defeat her, all we know is that she's a tournament champion.

Add in that she has superior equipment and the Hound is weakened by his infection (Arya told him he's walking slower now) and I've got her as the odds-on favorite in that fight.

Jousting doesn't equal fighting ability, it's mostly about horsemanship. Then Loras used clever tactics to win.

I personally feel Brienne is underestimated in the books, but the show seems to have gone too far the other way. In the books she's bigger than GC, but it still takes her a good long while to beat Rorge (a man with no real training at arms) and the fight with a weakened Jaime is much much closer than in the show. So Brienne is undoubtedly better in the show.

The fight is silly, but Brienne as we see her in the show could have won the sword bout. I'm a lot less convinced she'd have won the fist fight. But fine she smacked him with a stone. And his falling down the hill was the worst for him.

The argument against saying he was injured from the previous fight is that he doesn't seem injured.

I also find it hard to believe Brienne would just wander off, she knows where the Hound is, and when she hears him yelling at someone, surely she'd go and find Arya?

[Bridgeburners]

You're not wrong. There were 116 knights in the melee, and Brienne won it. To repeat myself, she is a renowned badass, and I've not a problem in the world with her defeating a weakened Hound when she had superior equipment.

As to your other point, any qualms I have over the contrivance of their meeting were utterly destroyed by the scene. IMO, that scene was fantastic, one of the best scenes of the entire wonderful season. Brienne, the Hound and Arya were all utterly true to form,* and the dialogue and acting were superb.

And while Brienne won the fight, the Hound kicked her ass in the pre-fight yakkin'! ("SAFETY! Where the fuck's that?!?" or "Tell me that's not Lannister gold, Brienne of fucking Tarth.")

*Although I don't think Pod would've allowed Arya to escape without his seeing where she went - that's my only quibble with the scene. (Pod may be a shitty cook, but he always steps up when it counts.)

It made no sense to Brienne's character, it simply dumbed her down to a Hollywood badass who shoots first and asks questions later. There were a million reasons that fight shouldn't have happened. She could have shown Arya Hot Pie's biscuit, Pod could have said "hey that's the guy who saved Sansa" instead of "hey that's the Hound", etc. Brienne basically drew her sword because he called her a "dumb bitch" and was being antagonizing. She even could have asked Arya why she's with him, or tried to make sense of the situation before drawing her sword and starting a random fight to the death.

They honestly had no reason to fight whatsoever, it just reeked of D&D needing to find some cheap way to get Sandor killed while at the same time appeasing the fans with an awesome fight scene. And yes, the fight itself was really good and well choreographed, and yes it's very feasible that Brienne could beat Sandor in those circumstances. But the fight was completely contrived and silly.

In the books she's bigger than GC

And which books would those be? Certainly not a Song of Ice and Fire, where Eddard describes Gregor as "well over seven feet tall, closer to eight".

[Hodor's Dragon]

They didn't fight over him calling her a dumb bitch, they fought over Arya. You really think Brienne would walk away from Arya? You really think the Hound would give Arya over to a stranger from King's Landing with a Lannister sword? I'd say that's a big hell no to both those questions. With those two in that situation, Arya can only be claimed by steel.

The dialogue leading up to the fight is fantastic, and in my opinion it is dead perfect true to all the characters involved. I don't see dumbing Brienne down in the slightest. That was Brienne to a T. Brienne went as far with Arya as she could through talking, but Arya was done with her and told her to leave ("It's 10 miles to the Bloody Gate.") once Clegane got her to admit where the sword came from. Brienne wasn't leaving without Arya, and there was no more talking to be done.

That's when they both pulled, not before.

[Adhara]

Dehydrated, .green fizzing rot bubbling out his neck,

yeah, he was not feeling it.

So, if I close one eye, I keep the golden haze of innocence I want to maintain.

I know he fought hard at first, wearing out quickly, until he hit bottom.

had he been healthy, Brienne would have unfortunately become just a Song.

Toss in the fun variable of Brain versus Brawn.

Idealistic versus savage pragmatism..

I could ponder all night.

[Young Nan]

It's possible that she could beat him narrowly while he was in a weakened state, but it's a stretch. Is she a very competent fighter? Yes. Could she best most men hands down? Yes. But The Hound isn't most guys- he is widely regarded to be an extremely strong, fearsome warrior, even Jaime, who is basically a sword-fighting prodigy, considers the Hound to be in his league. Speaking of Jaime- he was giving Brienne a run for her money while starved and shackled.

I can't help but feel like D&D put this fanfic fight in the show so they could say "look how progressive we are! A Strong Female Character". Instead of patting them on the back for their feminism, I feel sort of patronized by the trope of the female warrior who beats everyone because girl power.

Yes, Brienne is a fuckin badass and regularly owns men in fights, but I just can't see her beating Sandor.

[Deadwood]

After having adrenaline run your system, and then realising you've lost contact with the goal of your months long journey, I can see Brienne panicking like mad and running all over the hills looking for Arya. Like when you've lost a £50 on a night out. :D

peaking of Jaime- he was giving Brienne a run for her money while starved and shackled.

And Brienne was trying not to hurt him. Even then, Jaime was surprised by her strength.

[The BlackBear]

And which books would those be? Certainly not a Song of Ice and Fire, where Eddard describes Gregor as "well over seven feet tall, closer to eight".

My bad GC in this case stands for Gwendoline Christie. Didn't think of the other GC connotation :P

[Brian Appleton]

The hound is good but he's not a knight or received the training a knight will have. His fighting technique is self taught, this puts him in the same category as Brienne although they have very different morals and fighting style. Brienne is described as very big, she knows how to use a sword and has won many battles before, against men. She also has an agenda, an obligation that drives her to fight and she is prepared to die for it. She also has a valaryian steel sword and very good armour. As I see it she could well be a suitable match for the hound

[The BlackBear]

He's received exactly the same training any knight would have had. He grew up at Cleganes Keep where he would have had a master at arms, then moved to Casterley Rock, where he would have been training every day with very good knights. When he was in the capital he'd have been sparring with the best swordsmen around.

He could have been a knight, he just refused to say the vows.