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[BOOK SPOILERS] Does it seem plausible that Brienne...


teemo

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I think Brienne could have bested The Hound. She beat Loras who all, even the Kingslayer himself, admits is an amazingly skilled individual. And that was when they were merely 'playing at war'. I believe when put to a real life or death fight, Brienne's skills would have even kicked up a few levels. And whether or not they mentioned it in that episode, Arya had mentioned that The Hound was not his usual self, letting us know that he was weakening. I thought perhaps it was to set up Arya finally killing him, but I guess Brienne was to get that pleasure after all. IF The Hound truly is dead. I think it was an incredible fight scene. Loved Brienne's screams, it was as if she was trying to use every ounce of strength and courage she could muster. I will miss the "F*ck the King" team, but I love Arya and look forward to her adventures in Braavos.


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She beat Loras who all, even the Kingslayer himself, admits is an amazingly skilled individual. And that was when they were merely 'playing at war'.

Jaime says Loras is an incredibly good jouster, not an incredibly good sword. He's good, but even within the family his brother Garlan is better.

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Does it seem plausible? No, naye and never...



I like book Brienne, but show Brienne is just another ridiculous Hollywood cartoon character. In the bizarro world D&D have set up, she is Neo, she is The One, she's the toughest fighter from Westeros to the Shadowlands and beyond. Wouldn't be surprised if they have her go teach Sir Barristan a lesson in swordsmanship over brunch, and then jet back to the Iron Islanders to beat all of them singlehandedly.


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Does it seem plausible? No, naye and never...

I like book Brienne, but show Brienne is just another ridiculous Hollywood cartoon character. In the bizarro world D&D have set up, she is Neo, she is The One, she's the toughest fighter from Westeros to the Shadowlands and beyond. Wouldn't be surprised if they have her go teach Sir Barristan a lesson in swordsmanship over brunch, and then jet back to the Iron Islanders to beat all of them singlehandedly.

What in the show makes her "The One, . . . the toughest fighter from Westeros to the Shadowlands?" I must've missed that episode.

After answering that question, please tell me what's not plausible about Brienne defeating the Hound. Remember, Brienne won Renly's tourney melee of 116 knights, and before you go casting light on Renly's tourney, remember that Renly brought together by far the largest army that we've seen assembled in Westeros, rivaled only by Mance's and Khal Drogo's hordes. Winning Renly's melee makes her one of the top fighters around, no questions asked.

What are the facts we know that would make it seem implausible for her to have a fair chance against Sandor?

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After answering that question, please tell me what's not plausible about Brienne defeating the Hound. Remember, Brienne won Renly's tourney melee of 116 knights, and before you go casting light on Renly's tourney, remember that Renly brought together by far the largest army that we've seen assembled in Westeros, rivaled only by Mance's and Khal Drogo's hordes. Winning Renly's melee makes her one of the top fighters around, no questions asked.

Pretty much. The Tyrells have the most populous kingdom, then there is the Storm lands too. And Show Brienne beat all from that lot. That should at least make her worthy of top ten shitkickers in Westeros.

Emergency Awesome has a decent top ten of fighters from Westeros.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yes it's plausible. If they fight 100 times how likely is it? Doubt I'd give her even so much as 50/50 odds. But "any given Sunday" and all that. Brienne and Jaimie are my favorites so I'm not entirely unbiased but I love that the show is making her such a badass.


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Well at least La Cygne went to the trouble of compiling some reasons to believe The Hound to be a badass. Well done, I believe you. But you're less convincing on the reasons not to believe that Brienne is just as big a badass. I don't see any evidence for that at all, to tell the truth.

The Hound is a little bit bigger, most likely. Which means what exactly in a swordfight, other than very damn little? Is being a little bit bigger more important than having inferior equipment?

Between the two of them, she is the only one to have won a tourney. And how long was she in the ring fighting a bear with a wooden sword before Jaime showed up? OK, well, then would somebody remind me again who we've seen defeat her in a fair fight? Oh yeah, I remember. Nobody.

The impression I get from the books, and the show doesn't contradict it, is that she is one of the baddest badasses in the land . . . just like the Hound. I really don't get the basis for this thread.

Um, Sandor won the Hand's tournament.

Yeah, Loras decided not to fight in the final, but he had already come to the final by beating Jaime in the semis*, and Loras gave it to him after Sandor fought his brother to save Loras.

Not that I can blame you for not realizing that in case you're not a book reader (I don't know), considering what a poor job the show did with the Hand's tournament overall.

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Well . . . maybe I'm the wrong person to be answering your question, because I thought it was one of the best scenes of the entire season.

The point was that it made good TV. Do they need another point?

The Brienne and Sandor characters have both been transferred to the small screen with great success. Both those characters are vibrant, popular with the viewership, and totally faithful to the spirit of the characters in the book. Why not throw them together, if you can do it without harming the story, which was easy enough to do?

I think they pulled it off. The overall story was unaffected. As for the scene itself, the dialogue, acting, cinematography and music were all fantastic and melded into a highly-entertaining whole. I'm not much of a fan of TV/movie fighting, because there's always something silly and unbelievable in TV/movie fights, plus they drag on with non-believable action, but as fights go this one was about as good as it gets; I'd have to say it's the best one-on-one fight they've had in the show (yes, including Viper v Mt.)

Please tell me what was ridiculous about it. It's not at all a stretch that they might run into each other - we've got a bunch of characters beating back and forth over a limited number of roads. Each character's reaction and dialogue was, in my view, 100% faithful to that character's spirit.

I thought it was a wonderful scene.

Agree

Except that both of them, Sandor and Brienne, were presented as socially incompetent when they were not able to talk first and kill then. At least from Brienne I would have expected more.

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Um, Sandor won the Hand's tournament.

Yeah, Loras decided not to fight in the final, but he had already come to the final by beating Jaime in the semis*, and Loras gave it to him after Sandor fought his brother to save Loras.

Not that I can blame you for not realizing that in case you're not a book reader (I don't know), considering what a poor job the show did with the Hand's tournament overall.

No, you're right, I had forgotten that, probably because there was never a tournament finale with the Hound in it.

But even assuming the best for the Hound, all he could do by defeating Loras in the finals was put himself on the same level as Brienne, who did defeat Loras in a finale. So that still leaves us with no textual reason at all to expect the Hound to defeat Brienne, especially since we know that he was weakened when he fought her and she had superior equipment.

Given that, I would have put her as the favorite, and I thought the Hound did well to almost beat her.

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Agree

Except that both of them, Sandor and Brienne, were presented as socially incompetent when they were not able to talk first and kill then. At least from Brienne I would have expected more.

They talked long enough to get to the heart of the matter.

And the heart of the matter was that (1) Brienne was never going to walk away without Arya; and (2) the Hound was never going to give Arya to some chick with a Lannister sword just because she demanded it of him.

A fight was 100% inevitable once Brienne figured out who the weird little chick with the sword was. In fact, in the (beautifully done) scene, ominous music began playing in the background once Brienne said "You're . . . Arya Stark."

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No, you're right, I had forgotten that, probably because there was never a tournament finale with the Hound in it.

But even assuming the best for the Hound, all he could do by defeating Loras in the finals was put himself on the same level as Brienne, who did defeat Loras in a finale. So that still leaves us with no textual reason at all to expect the Hound to defeat Brienne, especially since we know that he was weakened when he fought her and she had superior equipment.

The Hound won the jousting, yeah? But Brienne beat Loras at fighting. The fight at Renly's camp was a melee wasn't it?

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The Hound won the jousting, yeah? But Brienne beat Loras at fighting. The fight at Renly's camp was a melee wasn't it?

I'm not sure that beating Loras in a melee is nearly as impressive as beating him in jousting. Did he ever have a chance to win a melee at a major tournament other than that one? Especially since Brienne used strength to beat him - Loras is 16 and slender, not particularly tall and really not very physically strong, book or show.

Regarding the sheer fighting, Sandor going to toe to toe with his brother (who was trying to kill him, from Ned's description of the fight) is more impressive. And nobody in Westeros would be able to use brute strength against the Mountain, you need to use other skills, obviously (and not make a fatal mistake like Oberyn did).

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I'm not sure that beating Loras in a melee is nearly as impressive as beating him in jousting. Did he ever have a chance to win a melee at a major tournament other than that one? Especially since Brienne used strength to beat him - Loras is 16 and slender, not particularly tall and really not very physically strong, book or show.

Regarding the sheer fighting, Sandor going to toe to toe with his brother (who was trying to kill him, from Ned's description of the fight) is more impressive. And nobody in Westeros would be able to use brute strength against the Mountain, you need to use other skills, obviously (and not make a fatal mistake like Oberyn did).

The point is though that jousting counts for little in a fight, the melee would be a better determination of when you duel.

I think the Mountain is overrated. His skills (and anger) are good for smashing smallfolk, but not against an accomplished knight (or equal) who has the skill and courage. Strength too would come into it, somneone on the same skill level wouldn't fare so badly, or temperament.

There is a good thread somewhere about fights, I think it got locked due to the over excitement of some.

The Mountain is a poor match-up for anyone who relies on strength to win, I wouldn't think the Hound would rely on strength over much, or Brienne.

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The point is though that jousting counts for little in a fight, the melee would be a better determination of when you duel.

I think the Mountain is overrated. His skills (and anger) are good for smashing smallfolk, but not against an accomplished knight (or equal) who has the skill and courage. Strength too would come into it, somneone on the same skill level wouldn't fare so badly, or temperament.

There is a good thread somewhere about fights, I think it got locked due to the over excitement of some.

That's a pretty big exaggeration. Cersei wouldn't have gotten him to be her champion if he was only good for killing unskilled smallfolk, and people wouldn't be so terrified of him. Oberyn beat him before making that fatal mistake and allowing the Mountain to use his sheer strength, but few people are as skilled as Oberyn. And in this case especially, the fight between Brienne and Sandor was a "dirty" fight where you're allowed to do anything, not a knightly swordplay. Duncan the Tall had no almost no knightly skills in The Hedge Knight, but he was able to easily defeat Aerion once they were fighting on the ground, because he was 7', strong and fought a lot in Flea Bottom in a decidedly non-knightly way, Since we're speaking about Loras, Loras had no way to defend himself when Gregor wanted to kill him, did he?

ETA: Also, Jaime, who was certainly confident of his skills before he lost his hand, thought that both Clegane brothers were among the few who could have a chance to defeat him.

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That's a pretty big exaggeration. Cersei wouldn't have gotten him to be her champion if he was only good for killing unskilled smallfolk, and people wouldn't be so terrified of him. Oberyn beat him before making that fatal mistake and allowing the Mountain to use his sheer strength, but few people are as skilled as Oberyn. And in this case especially, the fight between Brienne and Sandor was a "dirty" fight where you're allowed to do anything, not a knightly swordplay. Since we're speaking about Loras, Loras had no way to defend himself when Gregor wanted to kill him, did he?

It's not an exaggeration, it's an appraisal. Who would bet on Oberyn beating the Mountain? A lot of it is in the prestige and valuation of certain fighters. That's why a lot of people won't fight the Mountain. Bronn as an example, he knows it is possible for him to beat the Mountain, he just doesn't wish to take the odds, it's too much for him. Oberyn though has confidence in his skills and resolve, also the ability to keep a level head, he has probably faced worse.

A fighter's aura is great, until it's gone. A melee isn't about swordplay either, it's a dirty fight, and Brienne has won two now, so she is clearly in a higher echelon as fighters go.

From the scene between Loras and Gregor, he takes a sword and scares Loras's horse so he falls from it? He would have died if not for Sandor.

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