[BOOK SPOILERS] Does it seem plausible that Brienne...

[Woman of War]

...

A fight was 100% inevitable once Brienne figured out who the weird little chick with the sword was. In fact, in the (beautifully done) scene, ominous music began playing in the background once Brienne said "You're . . . Arya Stark."

I don't think that the characters of Brienne or of Sandor are meant by Martin - nor by D&D - to be particularly competent in interpersonal relations. But I would have expected a little more from Brienne.

Only the moment that music began the inevitable had to happen...... No way out.

[Deadwood]

Indeed, if you had to choose two of the worst characters to handle a delicate situation with tact, then Brienne and Hound would be in the top five I reckon. :D

[RavenKing23]

The point is though that jousting counts for little in a fight, the melee would be a better determination of when you duel.

I think the Mountain is overrated. His skills (and anger) are good for smashing smallfolk, but not against an accomplished knight (or equal) who has the skill and courage. Strength too would come into it, somneone on the same skill level wouldn't fare so badly, or temperament.

There is a good thread somewhere about fights, I think it got locked due to the over excitement of some.

The Mountain is a poor match-up for anyone who relies on strength to win, I wouldn't think the Hound would rely on strength over much, or Brienne.

Um, the Mountain fought on the front lines through the whole war, hell without the poison he would have probably survived Oberyn's wounds. Funny enough Brienne only fought one person stronger than her, Biter, and he demolished her. Strength is a huge part of her offence

[Deadwood]

Um, the Mountain fought on the front lines through the whole war, hell without the poison he would have probably survived Oberyn's wounds. Funny enough Brienne only fought one person stronger than her, Biter, and he demolished her. Strength is a huge part of her offence

Chances are he would never meet a top level fighter. Not anyone like Oberyn, Jaime et al.

Strength is part of her offence, she is constantly underrated, not sure if that is strength or art, because everyone knows she looks very strong, her muscles are one of the most striking things about her.

It's the opposite for the Mountain, a lot of his game is in his aura.

[RavenKing23]

Chances are he would never meet a top level fighter. Not anyone like Oberyn, Jaime et al.

Strength is part of her offence, she is constantly underrated, not sure if that is strength or art, because everyone knows she looks very strong, her muscles are one of the most striking things about her.

It's the opposite for the Mountain, a lot of his game is in his aura.

He did fight Oberyn, he kinda squashed his head in. Never knew an aura could do that

[Deadwood]

The quote was referring to the battlefield, hence the proposition. Oberyn had the Mountain beat, unfortunately getting the confession was too important, and ultimately, that cost the Viper the win. Viper had no or very little fear of the Mountain, and handled him fairly easily in the book, and the show.

[RavenKing23]

The quote was referring to the battlefield, hence the proposition. Oberyn had the Mountain beat, unfortunately getting the confession was too important, and ultimately, that cost the Viper the win. Viper had no or very little fear of the Mountain, and handled him fairly easily in the book, and the show.

In the book he was about to deliver the killing blow, not struting around like a cock in a hen pen like the show. Yet no one ever seems to mention Gregor's astoundishing willpower to be able to crush Oberyn despite the wounds

[Deadwood]

In the book he was about to deliver the killing blow, not struting around like a cock in a hen pen like the show. Yet no one ever seems to mention Gregor's astoundishing willpower to be able to crush Oberyn despite the wounds

The Mountain was good to finish it, but Oberyn still prolonged it and wanted the confession, it was still Oberyn's to lose by standing over him. The confession was still too important. Oberyn could have won it by standing away, he still only lost through hubris/vengeance, same as the show.

[abouththeotherknight]

I see the hounds skill as more of a butcher than a sword fighter, he's fast and strong like his brother but never required finesse like Loras would due to his size. Brienne may not be as strong as the hound but she probably was trained to have finesse evident in her defeating Loras. I am not denying the hounds skill with the sword only his style is less excuse the pun "flowery", more utilitarian as a warrior and not form based like a tourney fighter.

[Annara Snow]

I see the hounds skill as more of a butcher than a sword fighter, he's fast and strong like his brother but never required finesse like Loras would due to his size. Brienne may not be as strong as the hound but she probably was trained to have finesse evident in her defeating Loras. I am not denying the hounds skill with the sword only his style is less excuse the pun "flowery", more utilitarian as a warrior and not form based like a tourney fighter.

Uh, she didn't use finesse to beat Loras. And she sure didn't use her finesse in her fight with Sandor.

And I have no idea why fighting in tournaments would make someone a better fighter in a all-out fight like the one we saw in The Children. But if it was, that doesn't make sense again, since Sandor no doubt participated in many more tournaments than Brienne did.

[Beric175]

Actually the Hound's neckwound was a red herring to throw us readers off. Anyone can technically anyone. If Bronn throws sand in the Hound's or Jaime's or the Mountain's eyes and then stabs them in the neck he wins. This is not DBZ.

[messem]

..., since Sandor no doubt participated in many more tournaments than Brienne did.

Did he? He is not even a knight. I think that's the prerequisite to fight in the (most?) tournaments.

[Annara Snow]

Did he? He is not even a knight. I think that's the prerequisite to fight in the (most?) tournaments.

You obviously forgot the Hand's tourney, which was a big part of several chapters in AGOT. He participated in the Hand's tourney and won (unhorsing among others Renly and Jaime in the semifinals, before Loras gave him the victory without the final, because he saved him from Gregor). He had also participated in the previous big royal tournament, the tourney for Joffrey's nameday (the one that was won by Loras over Jaime in the final), where he was unhorsed by Barristan. And if he participated in those two, he participated in all the biggest tournaments organized by the king.

[messem]

You obviously forgot the Hand's tourney,

Yes I did, show hound didn't participate.

[Annara Snow]

Yes I did, show hound didn't participate.

Yes, he did. How else would Loras announce him the winner? I don't think that's possible if you're not participating. Granted, the show did a piss poor job of covering the tourney, but surely that either wouldn't be possible to do, or someone would have said "hey, he is a winner even though he didn't even participate!"

We just didn't see him joust against Jaime or Renly or anyone, but that's because we didn't see anyone joust against anyone other than Gregor vs Hugh of the Vale and Loras vs Gregor. But I really don't understand how you jumped from that to "Sandor didn't participate in the tourney", by that logic nobody participated in the tourney except for Gregor, Loras and Hugh.

[Bridgeburners]

Okay, I'd like to point out that Brienne wiped the floor with three Bloody Mummers (with help from Pod on the last one, to be fair to Sandor) while Sandor struggled immensely with two of the Mountain's Men, almost lost (except for an awesome move he pulled with a bench), and anyway had Arya finish the second guy off for him (though to be fair to him he probably won the fight before she stabbed the Tickler). The fights seemed very similar, and nothing really indicated to us that the Mountain's Men were master combatants compared to the Mummers that Brienne encountered.

So what's the point of this? To remind everyone that Brienne and Sandor are both human, completely subject to circumstances, have good and bad days, and neither are the gods that they are portrayed as in others' story (especially the latter). As much as smallfolk, and even though who saw Sandor fight, like to claim that he's a godlike fighter, he still struggled immensely and almost died against two not even noteworthy fighters. (Actually he did die, or certainly would have died if the Elder Brother didn't find him, whilst Brienne walked out virtually unscathed from her encounter.) It's just like how, after Ser Hyle witnessed Brienne's encounter with the Mumers, he went around bragging about how Brienne could take on ten outlaws with a hand tied behind her back... doesn't actually portray the human that she really is, who would struggle immensely against three guys of barely noteworthy notoriety.

And it's worth mentioning that, on Brienne's travel with Nimble Dick, she recalled her instructor telling her that she's as strong as any man he ever trained (whilst telling her that it may not matter if she ever hesitates before killing someone).

But the most important point, that everyone keeps on seeming to ignore, is this:

Actually the Hound's neckwound was a red herring to throw us readers off. Anyone can technically anyone. If Bronn throws sand in the Hound's or Jaime's or the Mountain's eyes and then stabs them in the neck he wins. This is not DBZ.

As Beric says, this is not DBZ, where we can use statements such as "A > B and B > C therefore A > C" when it comes to who would win in combat. If the world worked like that then there would never be a war in Westeros, there would just be two mathematicians calculating who will win in the following battle, and then the loser of the calculation conceding the battle before it even began. Everything is circumstantial. If Loras Tyrell was set against Strong Belwas in a fight on horseback with lances, Tyrell would wreck Belwas. If they were set to fight each other on foot with an Arakh in an arena, Belwas would probably rip Tyrell apart. But if they were set in that scenario the day after Belwas had a bad meal and wasn't feeling particularly energetic that day, while Loras has been on an awesome diet and exercise regiment, Loras might actually win. If you ever watch a fighting sport, like professional MMA, you see crazy upsets all the time, where nobody would have believed, based on their earlier records, that the fight could have ended that way.

And if Brienne encounters Sandor a few days after he receives a bite that's infected, and for which it has been explicitly stated is slowing him down, I am absolutely befuddled that people are arguing that there is no way she can beat him, and using ridiculous arguments such as their past records.

[Annara Snow]

Okay, I'd like to point out that Brienne wiped the floor with three Bloody Mummers (with help from Pod on the last one, to be fair to Sandor) while Sandor struggled immensely with two of the Mountain's Men, almost lost (except for an awesome move he pulled with a bench), and anyway had Arya finish the second guy off for him (though to be fair to him he probably won the fight before she stabbed the Tickler). The fights seemed very similar, and nothing really indicated to us that the Mountain's Men were master combatants compared to the Mummers that Brienne encountered.

And I'd like to point out that this happened when he was extremely drunk; that Polliver and Tickler notably didn't want to provoke Sandor, and kept making their squire shut up so he wouldn't provoke Sandor, until they witnessed him gulping an entire flagon of wine at once and getting extremely drunk, at which point they felt secure they could try to beat him; and that Polliver (or Tickler, I don't remember which one) laughingly pointed out to Sandor that he was drunk, implying that this was why he thought they could beat Sandor.

On a normal day, Sandor would have probably wiped the floor with multiple Bloody Mummers and Mountain's men (none of the Bloody Mummers are known to be great fighters, sure they're good enough to make a living, but nothing special; the most important prerequisite for the membership in one of those two groups is being the scum of the Earth - or should that be, the scum of the Planetos - who's willing and happy to do all kinds of terrible atrocities that an average soldier would not). Which is, BTW, exactly what he does on the show when he meets Polliver and co. while he is not extremely drunk. (We don't see Brienne fighting the BM on the show, since they don't exist on the show.)

And if Brienne encounters Sandor a few days after he receives a bite that's infected, and for which it has been explicitly stated is slowing him down, I am absolutely befuddled that people are arguing that there is no way she can beat him, and using ridiculous arguments such as their past records.

I agree, it is perfectly plausible that Brienne could beat him the way she did when he's in a weakened state due to an infected wound, just as it's plausible that he could be badly wounded by and barely manage to beat two of the Mountain's men while he's almost too drunk to stand.

The problem begins when people argue that the wound had nothing to do with it and was just a "red herring" (?) or when they conclude that the outcome of the fight means that Brienne is overall a better fighter, like one completely ridiculous list of 'best fighters in GoT' at a website, which didn't put Sandor on the list at all and put Brienne at #7, explaining it as "I would have put the Hound at #7, but since Brienne beat him she gets the spot instead". :bang: (I don't even remember who the first 6 were, I just remember it was a bizarre mix that included Syrio Forel, the Mountain and Drogo.)

(And I don't know, maybe the show is trying to make Brienne look like the best fighter in Westeros, maybe she is supposed to have much more experience than book Brienne since she's older, but in that case I'd appreciate if the show explained where exactly she gained her experience and training and what she had been doing previously to the Renly-organized tournament we saw in season 2.)

[messem]

Yes, he did. How else would Loras announce him the winner? I don't think that's possible if you're not participating. Granted, the show did a piss poor job of covering the tourney, but surely that either wouldn't be possible to do, or someone would have said "hey, he is a winner even though he didn't even participate!"

We just didn't see him joust against Jaime or Renly or anyone, but that's because we didn't see anyone joust against anyone other than Gregor vs Hugh of the Vale and Loras vs Gregor. But I really don't understand how you jumped from that to "Sandor didn't participate in the tourney", by that logic nobody participated in the tourney except for Gregor, Loras and Hugh.

Hellooooo, Sandor saved Loras' life! Might have something to do with it. Declaring a loser or a non-contestant the winner is basically the same. I know for sure that Dunk wasn't allowed to join a tourney because his status as a knight was doubted. But that was a different tourney. But obviously Ser Hugh did never fight a tourney before and he was knighted shortly before the tournament. Conclusion: I don't know.

[Annara Snow]

Hellooooo, Sandor saved Loras' life! Might have something to do with it. Declaring a loser or a non-contestant the winner is basically the same.

How is that relevant, when Sandor was not a loser in the tournament? Sandor was supposed to fight Loras in the final. Loras/Gregor and Sandor/Jaime were the semifinals. Loras simply decided to not fight the final against Sandor, but to immediately give him the victory.

As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that this is the only way you can give someone a victory in a tournament - if they are supposed to fight against them, and you decide to withdraw. A tennis player can "give" the victory to another if they're supposed to play the final and he or she decides to let the other be the winner by default. You can't go up there and say: "Hi, I'd like to give my dad/best friend the victory in the tournament!" Did you really think that Loras could have gone up there and said something like: "Hey, I'd like to make my father Mace the victor in this tournament"?!

The show may have been unclear on what was going on, but your conclusion makes no sense whatsoever. Why are you insisting on it?

I know for sure that Dunk wasn't allowed to join a tourney because his status as a knight was doubted. But that was a different tourney. But obviously Ser Hugh did never fight a tourney before and he was knighted shortly before the tournament. Conclusion: I don't know.

Um, hello, it's 100% clear in the books that Sandor was fighting in the tournament, we see him fighting in the tournament and beating Renly, we see him fighting and beating Jaime in the semifinals, and Ned says "No, there is one more joust" after Sandor saved Loras, because they were supposed to play the final (Loras having won the other semi against Gregor). We also know in the book that he lost to Selmy in a previous tournament.

Why are you insisting on your wrong conclusion about what was going on in the show, even though 1) it makes no sense in itself, 2) we know exactly what happened in the book, and there's absolutely no reason to think that something else happened in the show, they just didn't go into details? Also, why would you bring up something from Dunk & Egg to support the idea that the show couldn't have had Sandor fight in the tournament - when he fought in tournaments in the books?

[FreeParking]

There was a thought in one of Barristan's POVs where he is thinking about fighting and how even something like some wet grass could make a swordsman slip and lose a fight. I always think of that when I see the X can't beat Y in a fight arguments.