Marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna Revisited

[Mal Malenkirk]

I think they could see all 7 and if any had started to move into such a position, the conversation would have abruptly ended. While outnumbered, I don't see them as necessarily surrounded. They had the tower to their backs and could keep their backs otherwise to each other. Again, I don't claim to know tactics, but you still have not suggested what they really could have done differently under the circumstances. I re-read post #345 where you seem to make some attempt to answer this question, and I think there are potentially good reasons that these alternative options were not really available. Remember, they needed to kill all 7--they could not risk any getting away for reinforcements. So the KG needed to draw all of them in close and assume the superior fighting skills of the KG would be enough to kill 7 ordinary fighters.

You are assuming that they needed to kill everyone. Why? You seriously think that if they all seven men, they could have just remained at the Tower? No, they'd still need to flee, no matter how many people survived the battle. They can't count on nobody else knowing they are there. They didn't need to kill everybody, you are making that condition up to shore up your position. They just needed to win. And then get the hell out of there (which arguably they should have done a while ago, really). They could leave Lyanna behind. With the Stark and Baratheon in power, what terrible fate awaited her if she remained behind?

Also, you need to take some martial arts classes of some sort. Karate, Medieval fencing, whatever. Then you'd know that being back to the wall is an awful place to be in a melee fight. To fight effectively, you need to be able to move freely and that includes taking a few quick step backward if necessary, which you can't do if you are back to the wall. You may be more familiar with boxing; is being against the rope a good thing? No. You need to get out of here ASAP. Similarly, three men fighting 'back to back' is crap. You can't pull it off. Again, you can't take steps backward but on top of it if you push for an attack, you leave exposed the back of a team mate so you end up trapping yourself in staying passive to protect each other. No, if you are down to fighting back to back, it's an admission you fucked up in the first place by letting yourself get surrounded because that's an awful, really shitty way to fight. Me an buddies tested it for shit and giggles in martial art classes (a good 15 years ago! Times fly, we were testing various cinematic cliché) and it's just no way to fight.

We don't know the topography so I can't detail a specific plan, but if all else failed, they could have tried to trick them into coming inside. Inside a building, you normally have the kind of battlefield where you can maneuver to prevent a numerically superior group to swarm you. If you stay on open ground and let them walk up to you, you're fucked. At 7 to 3 odds, anyway. You'll get swarmed and attacked from all side in a matter of seconds and there is little you can do to protect yourself against them. That they managed to kill 5 out of 7 is both a minor miracle and also rather bizarre.

[corbon]

You are assuming that they needed to kill everyone. Why?

Because if there are survivors, then it is 100% guaranteed that a) knowledge of the three of them being here will get out (which is a huge red flag to the rebels of what is going on), b.) reinforcements will come, more than they can possibly handle, and c) even if they flee from here the rebels will now have a solid starting point to track them from.

You seriously think that if they all seven men, they could have just remained at the Tower?

For a time, yes. Its blindingly obvious that Ned bringing such a tiny group, and still being willing to fight, means that Ned too is keeping secrets here. So if they are at a secret location, and the person who finds it is keeping it secret, and doesn't get away, then there is a chance that it may remain secret for a while longer yet. Quite a good chance, for a while, though not forever.

No, they'd still need to flee, no matter how many people survived the battle. They can't count on nobody else knowing they are there.

They can't count on it, but its very likely the best option they have. The small and select party Ned brings with him is a very strong indicator that no one else knows they are there. Indeed. as far as we know, know one else does know they are (were) there to this day!

They didn't need to kill everybody, you are making that condition up to shore up your position.

Bollocks. Its really really basic that if they don't kill everybody they are screwed. They've been found, and they cannot hold out forever. They can't run with a dying woman or a newborn baby King while there are enemies tailing them. There isn't anywhere to run to openly anyway. They can't wait or the enemy will bring up enough numbers to inevitably defeat them. Their only chance is to kill all the enemy and hope that no one else turns up for just a little while longer, long enough for them to be gone.

They just needed to win. And then get the hell out of there (which arguably they should have done a while ago, really).

How do they win without killing everybody? They just get tailed by the survivors and since the rebels have won, everyone in the kingdom is now bound to help their tails. Sooner or later they loose this way, guaranteed.

They could leave Lyanna behind. With the Stark and Baratheon in power, what terrible fate awaited her if she remained behind?

Hiding in a secret location. Secret newborn baby, mother deeply sick, maybe dying, fever ridden.

Option 1: Move, through enemy territory, where every hand is against them, and any 'sighting' could bring their enemies attention.

Option 2: Hold for now, let the mother get recover or die, let the newborn survive the first few days and grow a little stronger, hope their secret stays a secret.

Even leaving Lyanna behind, option one is more dangerous.

Just because events worked out one way, doesn't mean that it still wasn't the best choice to make when they made their choice. If a 70/30 option is given to you, you take the 70 every single time. Yet nearly 1/3rd of the time the 30 option would turn out to be better. You still take the 70.

Also, you need to take some martial arts classes of some sort. Karate, Medieval fencing, whatever. Then you'd know that being back to the wall is an awful place to be in a melee fight. To fight effectively, you need to be able to move freely and that includes taking a few quick step backward if necessary, which you can't do if you are back to the wall.

You need to take a moment to get over your own thinking and consider this:

1. You know almost nothing about the situation. Not the terrain, bar a single detail, not the strategic imperatives they were under, not the tactical considerations they faced, not eth restrictions they were working with.

2. The most experienced and elite warriors of their day, men accustomed to not just fight, but to lead, and to consider every detail of their surroundings and the situation, men admired and respected by the other foremost warriors of their time, made their choice.

And you think that the nothing you know qualifies you to ridicule their choice for stupidity?

We don't know the topography so I can't detail a specific plan, but if all else failed, they could have tried to trick them into coming inside. Inside a building, you normally have the kind of battlefield where you can maneuver to prevent a numerically superior group to swarm you. If you stay on open ground and let them walk up to you, you're fucked. At 7 to 3 odds, anyway. You'll get swarmed and attacked from all side in a matter of seconds and there is little you can do to protect yourself against them. That they managed to kill 5 out of 7 is both a minor miracle and also rather bizarre.

Inside the building they rely on the 7 coming to them. No 7 coming, no fight. Which would be nearly impossible for the 7 to win, so not likely to happen, as far as they know. So staying inside the building means a draw most likely. A draw is a loss in the strategic situation they are in, and unacceptable.

[Ygrain]

Just one point to add: if they want to keep Jon's existence secret, they CANNOT leave Lyanna behind, or else it would be found out that she had given birth. They either need to take her along, or wait till she dies and bury her.

[King of the West]

So Rhaegar was so smart he didn't think Dorne, another Prince, and people wouldn't trip off his actions???? To me he just seems so overrated. Like picking a qb just because he looks the part sheesh. In combat one on one he was overrated, and in life too!

[Ygrain]

So Rhaegar was so smart he didn't think Dorne, another Prince, and people wouldn't trip off his actions???? To me he just seems so overrated. Like picking a qb just because he looks the part sheesh. In combat one on one he was overrated, and in life too!

And can you point out the part where Dorne does trip off Rhaegar's actions? 'Cause I'm not aware of any.

[mambru]

Because if there are survivors, then it is 100% guaranteed that a) knowledge of the three of them being here will get out (which is a huge red flag to the rebels of what is going on), b.) reinforcements will come, more than they can possibly handle, and c) even if they flee from here the rebels will now have a solid starting point to track them from.

For a time, yes. Its blindingly obvious that Ned bringing such a tiny group, and still being willing to fight, means that Ned too is keeping secrets here. So if they are at a secret location, and the person who finds it is keeping it secret, and doesn't get away, then there is a chance that it may remain secret for a while longer yet. Quite a good chance, for a while, though not forever.

They can't count on it, but its very likely the best option they have. The small and select party Ned brings with him is a very strong indicator that no one else knows they are there. Indeed. as far as we know, know one else does know they are (were) there to this day!

Hi there, just randomly decided to stumble back in to the fray.

The fact that Ned has approached the tower with a small search party does NOT indicate that he has no larger army nearby. Ned and his men are deep in what is still nominally enemy territory - even though the Dornish pretty much stopped fighting after the sack of KL, no peace has been made. How likely is it that Ned would go this deep into hostile territory from the Stormlands WITHOUT an army...an army nearby that he may have left instructions to follow him if he does not soon return?

"The small and select party Ned brings with him is a very strong indicator that no one else knows they are there..." indicates no such thing, IMO - quite the opposite, in fact. The presence of Ned there - coming precisely to THAT abandoned tower where his sister lies - shows that someone DID know she was there, AND that that someone spilled that information to Ned. And whoever tattled once can do it again. So the ToJ 3 KG must consider their cover blown.

And in that case, what serves Baby Jon's survival better? That the KG negotiate with Ned and see if he could be persuaded to allow his nephew to flee safely and avoid the taint of kinslayer for himself? Or that the KG try to kill Ned and ALL of his men, with several possible outcomes:

1) If they kill Ned but then are killed by Ned's men, then Jon is left at the mercy of Ned's men - whose loyalty is to Bob, and unlike Ned, have no blood kinship to weigh against handing Jon over to be killed - hence by killing Ned they actually INCREASE the chances of Jon getting killed. Not a good outcome.

2) They kill all Ned's men, huzza! Except, as I mentioned, Ned likely has an army nearby awaiting his return, and they will bloody well get antsy If he doesn't come back as scheduled - and the source of Ned's intelligence about the ToJ is still out there, loose and likely to tell Ned's army what they already told Ned. So whatever KG that survived the battle (possibly wounded) has the task of escaping an enraged army intent on avenging the death of its commander, while the KG is limited to moving with a wetnurse at the snail's pace required to safely transport a newborn.

IMO, that's not a very desirable outcome either, especially compared to the possibility of successfully negotiating with Ned to allow all three KG to escape unwounded with the baby to protect him in exile. The fact that the KG didn't even TRY for that outcome still tells me that Jon's protection and survival was the last thing on their minds.

[denny717]

I never really got the impression that the KG were already surrounded. Did it say that Ned and his men already had the KG flanked? And I had always assumed that Lyanna was in labor during the battle. That would explain why they may have been caught off guard, and why Lyanna was screaming in pain and died just after the battle. And that's why the KG couldn't just run away with a baby that hasn't been born yet.

Do we know exactly when they got the info that KL was taken? Maybe it had been 2 days before ned shows up, and Lyanna was to pregnant to walk through a desert.

Also I think part of ned remembering the ToJ, he mentions tearing down the tower to make 8 cairns for the dead. 5 for north men, 3 for kg, and Lyannas body was taken north.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I never really got the impression that the KG were already surrounded. Did it say that Ned and his men already had the KG flanked? And I had always assumed that Lyanna was in labor during the battle. That would explain why they may have been caught off guard, and why Lyanna was screaming in pain and died just after the battle. And that's why the KG couldn't just run away with a baby that hasn't been born yet.

Do we know exactly when they got the info that KL was taken? Maybe it had been 2 days before ned shows up, and Lyanna was to pregnant to walk through a desert.

Also I think part of ned remembering the ToJ, he mentions tearing down the tower to make 8 cairns for the dead. 5 for north men, 3 for kg, and Lyannas body was taken north.

I don't think the KG were "surrounded" and I am not sure what you are responding to that suggested as much. I do not think Lyanna was in labor. I think she gave birth 3-7 days prior to the battle and died of puerperal fever, a common infection in the Middle Ages from childbirth. The KG could not leave because they had an infant and dying mother in the tower.

We don't know exactly when the KG found out about the sack of KL. But probably not long before Ned showed up.

[denny717]

^^^Showing you where Mal Malenkirk said kg should have left ToJ and we're surrounded.

1 - What, you think it's a magical tower? You need supply, you can't live in autarcy. People talk, they were always going to get found out. Ned is not exactly Sherlock Holmes and he found them readily enough after he lifted the Dragonstone siege.

As soon as humanly possible, the Iron Thrones would get informations to all the ports concerning the three king's guard and Lyanna so the longer they stayed, the harder it was to leave. They should have ran as soon as the news of the defeat came in, everyday that passed added to the risk.

2 - Anywhere in Essos would have been safer, as demonstrated by Viserys and Daenerys. In fact, the logical thing to do would have been to join them along with baby Jon.

3 - How were they going to arrange passage on a ship from the 'super secret' Tower of Joy? If at least one of the guard was away doing just that when Ned came knocking, I'd give credence to this theory, but as they were all in the Tower polishing their armours and looking knightly, they obviously were not very concerned about the issue. At best it would mean they were letting such vital arrangements in teh hands of subordinate. At worst (and more likely), they expected to just wing it when Lyanna could travel. Or, of course, maybe Mambru's right.

4 - The evidence show they stood in the open and waited to be surrounded. No commander in history would recommend that 'tactic'. If they had been concerned with winning above everything else, that's not how they'd have behaved.

Their main concern should have been to not let the lesser but more numerous warriors gang up on them. Smart warriors would have shot at Ned's men from cover as they approached. It would have forced them to scatter for cover. As soon as you see a few men isolated, the best fighters (likely Dayne and Hightower) can make a sortie and quickly kill the stragglers before the whole group has a chance to regroup and gang up on them while the last guard keeps shooting at anyone in the open.

Yes, it's not as honorable as letting your enemy take position while you chat amiably and then start the fight on their terms. But neither is letting the king beat and rape his wife. Isn't protecting the king the supreme duty? If they accepted a few notches on their precious honor then, they should have accepted one more now. They were the last line of defense.

---

You know, one thing that strikes me is how for some people NO ONE did anything wrong on the Rahegar + Lyanna side of the equation. Not morally, not tactically, not politically, not at the start and not as things develepped. Nothing at all. Yet they're all dead. It's all a great tragedy.

Yeah. We'll see what new facts come to light in the next books, but personnally I believe there was not a whole lot of brain power at the Tower of Joy during the rebellion...

check 2 he's said several times that the kg were dumb because they didn't escape ahead of time, but who knows when they got the dead aegon info, or dead reagar info. There job was to stand still till reagar gets back or baby is born. Not travel through the desert with a sick women and a newly born baby. Sounds dangerous.

Check 4 he has also said several times that the kg were surrounded. I don't think the book ever mentions the tactics in which were used by the KG to fight ned, so I don't know why he keeps saying it.

[denny717]

I don't think the KG were "surrounded" and I am not sure what you are responding to that suggested as much. I do not think Lyanna was in labor. I think she gave birth 3-7 days prior to the battle and died of puerperal fever, a common infection in the Middle Ages from childbirth. The KG could not leave because they had an infant and dying mother in the tower.

We don't know exactly when the KG found out about the sack of KL. But probably not long before Ned showed up.

How do you know that jon was born already? Is R+L=J proven now? Where does it say he was already born? I thought it made perfect sense that she was currently in labor, and died after. Other than that though, I agree unmasked lurker.

[UnmaskedLurker]

How do you know that jon was born already? Is R+L=J proven now? Where does it say he was already born? I thought it made perfect sense that she was currently in labor, and died after. Other than that though, I agree unmasked lurker.

That issue has been debated for a long time -- mostly in the RLJ pinned thread (although I don't think it has been discussed in a while). Basically, the little evidence we have suggests that Lyanna died of puerperal fever -- which typically takes 3-7 days to kill a woman. The symptoms Ned seems to describe is consistent with such a death. So if she is in labor during the battle, she would not have died that day, but at least 3 days later. So it seems likely she had already given birth before the battle.

Of course much of this analysis is conjecture, but fairly well considered conjecture.

The other reason it seems to make sense for Jon to be born already is that it seems plausible that by the time the KG found out about the sack of KL, Jon was already born so that they would consider him to be king and have no reason to go to Viserys on DS. If Jon is not yet born when they learn of the death of Aerys and Aegon, it is less clear why they would not have sent at least one KG to DS. And when Ned tells them of the sack -- they seem to already know about it (although not 100% certain).

So none of these conclusion are iron clad -- the a lot of people sifting through the evidence for quite a while have concluded that it seems most likely to have happened this way.

[denny717]

That issue has been debated for a long time -- mostly in the RLJ pinned thread (although I don't think it has been discussed in a while). Basically, the little evidence we have suggests that Lyanna died of puerperal fever -- which typically takes 3-7 days to kill a woman. The symptoms Ned seems to describe is consistent with such a death. So if she is in labor during the battle, she would not have died that day, but at least 3 days later. So it seems likely she had already given birth before the battle.

Of course much of this analysis is conjecture, but fairly well considered conjecture.

The other reason it seems to make sense for Jon to be born already is that it seems plausible that by the time the KG found out about the sack of KL, Jon was already born so that they would consider him to be king and have no reason to go to Viserys on DS. If Jon is not yet born when they learn of the death of Aerys and Aegon, it is less clear why they would not have sent at least one KG to DS. And when Ned tells them of the sack -- they seem to already know about it (although not 100% certain).

So none of these conclusion are iron clad -- the a lot of people sifting through the evidence for quite a while have concluded that it seems most likely to have happened this way.

Sounds legit. I'm no doctor so I'll take your word for it. My real point of saying it though, is I was defending the KG actions. It's hard to travel with a 9 month prego woman through a desert.

And another thought is the eyes who are watching in port cities. I'm sure people at the end of the war are looking for all 4 of them, so the ToJ was the most down low place to be. Moving to essos is a tricky manuever. Obviously there was someone bringing them supplies, and someone who rat them out to ned. Probably both the same person.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I never really got the impression that the KG were already surrounded. Did it say that Ned and his men already had the KG flanked?

Check 4 he has also said several times that the kg were surrounded. I don't think the book ever mentions the tactics in which were used by the KG to fight ned, so I don't know why he keeps saying it.

I don't get what you don't get. If 7 people are allowed to walk up to 3, then the 3 are surrounded or will be as soon as the fight starts.

Try playing football 7 against 3 without a referee. Even if the 7 are nice and respect the line of scrimmage, how long after the snap before the 3 get swarmed from both side if they are playing back to a wall and can't pedal back? Literally half a second.

These aren't armies maneuvering, these are a few men.

It's ridiculously hard to win 2 against 1 in hand-to-hand-combat on open ground so knowing that you try anything in your power to even the odds, you don't stand in the open and wait passively for your enemies to cover the ground. You try to draw the fight inside the tower, you try to set up an ambush, you charge hoping the initial shock will even the odds, whatever. Odds are still slim but anything is better than standing in front of a wall and letting your enemies take position. If you do that your're fucked.

I think it's earlier in that thread that I suggested that maybe the king's guard did in fact behave sensibly instead of "lawful stupid' and that Eddard remembers that scene in an idealized fashion that allows him to make peace with the incident. The dream sequence does have a surreal quality to it that makes you think that while most of the info in it is legit, it possibly did not happen like that.

[Modesty Lannister]

I believe the forum is running around in circles each time a possibility of a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar is mentioned. Personally, I am currently focused on Rhaegar's motives for such an action. From what we know about his character, he was very studious in everything he did. He was an insatiable learner whether it was written knowledge, lore or fighting skills. But, we also know that he did things rationally. He decided to learn to be a warrior, because of something he read. That is not a boy who rushes to the armoury every morning just to use up his energy fighting. That is a studious boy who does things, because he has a purpose. He is also described as able, which means when he wants to learn or do something, he will find the way. Finally, he was a person who liked solitude and contemplation. His trips to Summerhall are a testimony to that. However, one must not see him as a melancholic who is just mourning his dead. Each time he was there, he was actually talking to the Ghost of High Heart. That is a time well spent for someone who devoted a lot of his life to deciphering prophesies.

We can argue that Rhaegar Targaryen organised Harrehal tourney (because it is obvious he was the silent organiser) in order to stabilise the realm, to ensure people were on board with him despite of his father being mad. I am not going to analyse this tourney here, because the topic is marriage. But, I will say that the tourney ending with crowning of Lyanna Stark is something that begs to be analysed in depth. The realm was in a state of dissatisfaction with Targaryens. Aerys II was getting more and more unstable, but at the time Harrenhal was organised, Aerys II had not attacked anyone. On the contrary, he had been attacked, kidnapped and held in dungeons by his vassals. Duskindale was a clear message to the realm that Targaryens were far from untouchable. The authority of the king was profoundly shaken. Tywin, who ruled over a very prosperous period of the kingdom, resigned as Hand, Lords Paramount of the Westerlands, Riverlands, Stormlands and the North were planning marriages that could and should be read as military alliances. Harrenhal stopped one such marriage since Jaime was admitted to the Kingsguard. That was elegantly done. No one could have blamed the Targeryens for that. However, the main message of the tourney was disturbing. The Crown Prince passed over his own wife and crowned Lyanna the queen of love and beauty. Was he suicidal? Did he want to provoke a war? A mutiny? And crush it there and then? That is certainly a possibility. But, that would be a highly risky move for the crown prince of a shaken dynasty. The accounts said everyone fell silent when the crowning happened. But, Elia did not burst into tears, Dornishmen did not jump to their weapons, Robert Baratheon did not cry out that his beloved had been offended, Brandon Stark did nothing. And these were very hot blooded people. Instead, they fell silent. How uncharacteristic. Which leads me to believe that the message Rhaegar sent was one that led them to contemplation rather than rage. He gave them food for thought.

So, what did the crowning mean? Let's examine Westerosi lore since Rhaegar was an expert in the field. The crowning of Lyanna evoked the following associations:

1. Beal the Bard - the story about a king beyond the wall who came to Winterfell disguised as a singer, only to sleep with lord Stark's daughter. Later, the bastard, born out of that liaison would be the only surviving Stark heir making the current Starks descendants of a bastard Stark who was a son of a wildling.

2. Jenny of Oldstones - a story about Duncan Targaryen who was, like Rhaegar, the Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the IT and abandoned it all to marry Jenny, a girl he found near Harrenhal who claimed to be descending from a king Tristifer IV. So, essentially, Duncal abandoned the throne to marry a descendent of the last king of the First Men who stood up to the Andals south of the Neck. That king was using a warhammer and wild roses grow around his tomb. Warhammer is a clear association to Robert Baratheon while Jenny of Oldstones is pretty clear association to Lyanna Stark. This message can be read in many ways. One can read that Rhaegar was ready to leave the throne for a girl he fell in live with. How romantic and how out of character! A studious boy who grew up to abandon the throne for love. A very powerful message. But, such a message would surely cause un uproar in Harrenhal. Yet, there was silence. Another reading of this message may be that a king (or a wannabe king in Robert's case who was fourth in line of Targaryen succession at that moment) who used a war hammer would end up like Tristifer if he married Lyanna. This looks more consistent with what Targaryens were doing. Jaime was already out of the marriage picture and a warning to Robert was issued - "drop this folly of allying yourself with the North or else you will end up like Tristifer". Point 1. in that case could be read as a message to the Starks: "Do not do anything, which will lead me to steal your daughter and leave her with a bastard who would inherit Winterfell while you all rot". So, one can argue that Rhaegar used Westerosi lore to send a couple of very powerful political messages to his vassals who were cooking very unusual marriages = political and military alliances.

3. However, Rhaegar would not be a studious boy without an even deeper message. What can blue roses also signify?

They can be interpreted as northern lights of Aurora.

Aurora is a natural light display in the sky based around the polar regions.

Wikipedia

Aurora is Roman goddess of dawn. On Earth, we have Aurora Borealis (northern hemisphere), and Aurora Australis (southern hemisphere).

The lights are usually green, but they can also be red or blue. Greek version of goddess Aurora is Titaness and goddess Eos. Both Eos and Aurora are derived from a proto-IndoEuropean goddess Hausos, who can be seen as a goddess of spring. Note that Harrenhal was organised in the year of false spring.

The Italic goddess Mater Matuta "Mother Morning" has been connected to Aurora by Roman authors (Lucretius, Priscianus). Her festival, the Matralia, fell on 11 June, beginning at dawn.^[5]

The abduction and imprisonment of the dawn goddess, and her liberation by a heroic god slaying the dragon who imprisons her, is a central myth of Indo-European religion, reflected in numerous traditions.

Of course, you can say that Rhaegar is not living on Earth, but on Planetos an you would be right. But, let's examine a custom in Planetos.

In TWOIAF we learn that Pentos has been founded as Valyrian merchant colony and in time spread its territory to what was the original land of the Andals. So, the city of today is inhabited by descendants of both Valyrians and Andals. Pentos is also the closest to King's Landing of all Essos cities.

Pentos of Valyrian time used to be ruled by a prince, chosen from 40 noble families (which is a direct homage to 40 Valyrian dragonlord families). Once chosen, a prince rules for life:

Each new year, the prince use deflower two maidens, the maid of the sea and the maid of the fields. The ancient ritual - perhaps arising from mysterious origins of pre-Valyrian Pentos - is meant to insure a continuous prosperity of Pentos on land and at sea. Yet, if there is a famine or a war is lost, the prince becomes not a ruler, but a sacrifice; his throat is slit so that the Gods may be up eased. And then a new prince is chosen who might bring more fortune to the city.

Rhaegar deflowered two maidens:

Elia was the maiden of the sea. She was born and bred in the port of Sunspear and is a descendent of the Andals (Martells) and Rhoynish (Nymeria).

Lyanna was the maiden of the field, described as half-horse. Rhaegar crowned her with blue roses and named her the queen of love and beauty. She is a descendent of the First Men, because we do not see Starks ever marrying into a family of Andal blood.

So, deflowering of these two maids can be seen as a parallel ritual that would ensure prosperity of Westeros (First Men, Andals and the Rhoynish) on both land and sea.

TWOIAF tells us that the custom of choosing a Pentoshi prince predates Valyrian arrival. So, it is highly probable it was Andal. And the roots of the custom are most likely magical since most customs start as magical rituals and end up being just pale ceremonial copies of its origins. We see the reverse custom on the island of Leng where the princess takes two husbands - one from Yi Ti and the other from Leng to ensure prosperity. One commands her armies and the other her navy.

And that is what apparently Rhaegar did in life. He deflowered both his maidens. And it stands to reason that he "married" both. Since Lyanna is of the north, the mere abduction could equal marriage in a ritualistic sense. But, it is more likely they would be married in front of a weirwood.

And how does this tale of attempted balance and prosperity of the realm end? The Pentoshi custom dictates that in the case of war or famine, the prince must be sacrificed. And there was a war. The prince, who was supposed to rule for life, was sacrificed. Rhaegar was nowhere to be seen before the Trident where he lost to Robert. Did Rhaegar go willingly to the Trident to fulfil a part of a ritual he enacted in Harrenhal?

[denny717]

I don't get what you don't get. If 7 people are allowed to walk up to 3, then the 3 are surrounded or will be as soon as the fight starts.

Try playing football 7 against 3 without a referee. Even if the 7 are nice and respect the line of scrimmage, how long after the snap before the 3 get swarmed from both side if they are playing back to a wall and can't pedal back? Literally half a second.

These aren't armies maneuvering, these are a few men.

It's ridiculously hard to win 2 against 1 in hand-to-hand-combat on open ground so knowing that you try anything in your power to even the odds, you don't stand in the open and wait passively for your enemies to cover the ground. You try to draw the fight inside the tower, you try to set up an ambush, you charge hoping the initial shock will even the odds, whatever. Odds are still slim but anything is better than standing in front of a wall and letting your enemies take position. If you do that your're fucked.

I think it's earlier in that thread that I suggested that maybe the king's guard did in fact behave sensibly instead of "lawful stupid' and that Eddard remembers that scene in an idealized fashion that allows him to make peace with the incident. The dream sequence does have a surreal quality to it that makes you think that while most of the info in it is legit, it possibly did not happen like that.

Ya I don't think they had bows and arrows to pick off the enemy from a distance. They had long swords, and in close quarters the walls are to close to swing a long sword correctly. Another thought is they didn't want to bring the fight closer to the baby and dieing woman. Lyanna having to watch them possibly kill her brother, she would probably die of grief in her weak condition. And these are knights of the KG. They don't just sucker shot people while they walk around corners. And closing the doors and making ned siege the tower would cost time, that Lyanna and a hungry babe don't have. And what would they do about being out numbered. Phone a friend? No there number was 3 and they're stuck with the odds they have. More men mean more mouths to blabber, and Rhaegar only trusted very few.

The fact is, once they saw riders in the distance they knew they were fucked. They saw 7 men with stark banners, and probably thought oh good it's her brother. He won't kill the baby." If they had killed Ned's group, the next group would have been larger and led by someone who might kill jon. So the suicide by cop thing makes a bit of sense.

As for ned remembering things that didn't happen, I would love for this problem to be solved in a less violent manner. But ned did think it, so I assume it's real. Also, if they all survived, what happened to Ned's men. In the beginning of GoT, all these men's sons help run winterfell. None of those characters are alive as far as we know. I hope your right about it, but I think Ned's thoughts are real until proven fake, because it seems like a bit of a stretch to assume.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Ya I don't think they had bows and arrows to pick off the enemy from a distance... If you have the wrong tools for the job, it's your own damn fault. It's not like they didn't have several months to prepare an hypothetical defense. Balon Swann is known as a great archer and an expert with the morningstar, for example, so we know the King's guards are not bound to use just the long sword. Using the wrong tools for the job would add to the stupidity of the situation. That being said, a greatsword is used a lot like a spear so Arthur Dayne would have done great if the fight had been drawn inside with Dawn.

As for ned remembering things that didn't happen, I would love for this problem to be solved in a less violent manner... I'm not suggesting the real encounter was less violent, I'm sugesting it might have been MORE violent, with the King's guard fighting in a more brutal, ruthless and sensible fashion to give themselve a fighting chance to win and therefore do their duties instead of what looks like an honorable suicide if Ned's dream is literal. And maybe Ned reconstituted something more civilized in his dreams where there is a prolonged pre-fight exchange of civilities that had not occured in reality as a way to make peace with what happened. Most of the info in that dream sequence might have been gleaned by Ned in a different way. I'm not saying he's deluded and would not be able to tell the differeence betweem the dreams and what really happened, mind you. But I know that in the (rare) instance of where I dreamt about something that really happened to me, it's never been a faithful reconstitution of what happened and there was usually an element of wish fulfilment. YMMV.

[Black Dragons]

Why the HELL it took so long? It only takes a 1 hour to find Septa (whatever you called them) get marry, have sex and be at King Landing before dinner time. Why did they had disappear for months? this does NOT sense. Now Robert would piss off but it only his house will in rebellion and Brandon and his father would alive but they would be piss at first, but then my is daughter is Queen of Westeros.

[#GreatOther]

What does it matter, Jon is Dead.... (Though, I don't wanna beleive it...)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Why the HELL it took so long? It only takes a 1 hour to find Septa (whatever you called them) get marry, have sex and be at King Landing before dinner time. Why did they had disappear for months? this does NOT sense. Now Robert would piss off but it only his house will in rebellion and Brandon and his father would alive but they would be piss at first, but then my is daughter is Queen of Westeros.

It makes sense if you think that they need a baby in hand to increase the likelihood that Aerys will accept the marriage.

What does it matter, Jon is Dead.... (Though, I don't wanna beleive it...)

In the words of GRRM: "So, you think Jon is dead?"

[Crimsonsmile]

So people love the idea of R+L=J because it almost sounds like a fairy tale but as we all know there are a lot of theories. One's that are vague and others that seem very close to what might actually have happened. Suffice it to any possibilities that aren't to far off the mark are true contenders for what really occurred. Now bear in mind that even if it isn't true the fact that it seems possible means its just as likely. So here's my theory, Brandon stark is Jon's father. Now here's why. Whenever Lyanna is mentioned most of the time Rhaegar is too but so is Brandon. We know that Brandon was a born leader and great swordsmen just like Jon. Though Rhaegar is handsome its also mentioned that Brandon is to, and since blood tells it adds to the fact that Jon looks like a true northern. Therefore he inherited his looks either from his father Brandon or his mother Lyanna. Now Eddard never refers to Jon as a son but as his blood, and knowing just how honorable a man he is. Allows me to think that he would never betray someones trust. Take into account Brandon's enjoyment in taking maidenheads and the close relationship he had with his sister. One might think that Brandon began a secret relationship with Lyanna at the tourney out of jealousy. Which continued up into the point in which she was abducted. Rhaegar probably knowing what it means to be born of incest sympathized and agree's to help her child. Here is something to remember Brandon left his fiance to go after his sister, which tells us that he loves her. Knowing that nothing is as it appears and GRRM penchant for family drama, tells me it's possible. Also other than the Targaryens being born of incest I don't see any body being all right with incest which is why I believe she confided in Rhaegar and made Ned promise. Seeing how mad Brandon was at Rhaegar tells us that he would have done anything for his sister thus his reason for wanting his sister back. I mean his love for her is not without question but Rhaegar's can be open to interpretation.