Marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna Revisited

[Boarsbane]

I know suggesting such is bordering on heresy here, but is it perhaps possible that the mettle of Barristan Selmy is overrated?

Say what you will about him but at least he fought for his king unlike the other three. Really Selmy has done more for the Targaryens than all 3 of the others combined so I wouldn't question his devotion to Aerys compared to Dayne and Whent.

[The Bittersteel]

I know suggesting such is bordering on heresy here, but is it perhaps possible that the mettle of Barristan Selmy is overrated?

To this I would reply that isn't it perhaps possible that Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent's loyalty to the King rather than Rhaegar is overrated? We have no PoV's for these characters and they've all been long dead by the time of the series, how do we know where their true loyalties lie?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The fact that most of them don't guard Aerys during Robert's rebellion is enough to disprove that statement. He isn't king if he's not crowned, he's the rightful heir. I don't see them disregarding possible alternatives in case Viserys falls. Their loyalty seems to lie more with Rhaegar (or his memory) it seems to me.

Aerys had Darry, Martell, Selmy and Jaime at his disposal. By the time the men at the Tower would have known that Aerys might be unprotected, it would've been too late. We know from tPatQ that it's not unusual for the heir to have multiple Kingsguard with them; Rhaenyra had two with her on Dragonstone. So I don't see why Dayne and Whent being with Rhaegar is questionable. The latecomer would have been Hightower, and even that has a pretty easy solution: If Hightower's orders were to make sure Rhaegar came back, Rhaegar could have ordered Hightower to stay at the Tower without overriding Aerys's order, so long as Rhaegar did return (and we know he did).

If it were just Whent and Dayne at the Tower when Ned arrived, you might have a valid point about them staying solely out of loyalty to Rhaegar. But Hightower is the trump card: He's presented as being pretty by-the-book and it isn't suggested that he has a particular connection to Rhaegar. I don't think the "there for Rhaegar" excuse works for him, sorry.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

To this I would reply that isn't it perhaps possible that Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent's loyalty to the King rather than Rhaegar is overrated? We have no PoV's for these characters and they've all been long dead by the time of the series, how do we know where their true loyalties lie?

Say what you will about him but at least he fought for his king unlike the other three. Really Selmy has done more for the Targaryens than all 3 of the others combined so I wouldn't question his devotion to Aerys compared to Dayne and Whent.

Dayne, Hightower and Whent died upholding their vows. Barristan went from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany, and only then because he was sacked. I don't recall him giving a solitary fuck about Dany and Viserys when they were running around the Free Cities as street urchins. He grew a conscience when he got the boot. So please, spare me the Barristan lovefest.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The Targaryens were overthrown, even Barristan submits while Viserys and Dany are still alive. If a man like Barristan Selmy is willing to give up on Viserys so easy why is it so hard to believe the KG who abandoned their king for his son would?

Go back to the conversation at ToJ. The KG make it clear that they uphold their vow. Hightower makes it clear when talking to Jaime that KG guard the king and not judge the king. These statements only make sense if the KG at ToJ take their obligation to guard the king seriously. So while not 100% certain without any possibility that GRRM goes in a different direction, all the clues make the most sense if Jon is king (for example, why does Bloodraven, in the guise of Mormont's raven, call Jon king?). Look at all the evidence and if you still think it is unlikely that Jon is legitimate son of Rhaegar, then I guess we will just have to wait and see who is right in the end.

[The Bittersteel]

Aerys had Darry, Martell, Selmy and Jaime at his disposal. By the time the men at the Tower would have known that Aerys might be unprotected, it would've been too late. We know from tPatQ that it's not unusual for the heir to have multiple Kingsguard with them; Rhaenyra had two with her on Dragonstone. So I don't see why Dayne and Whent being with Rhaegar is questionable. The latecomer would have been Hightower, and even that has a pretty easy solution: If Hightower's orders were to make sure Rhaegar came back, Rhaegar could have ordered Hightower to stay at the Tower without overriding Aerys's order, so long as Rhaegar did return (and we know he did).

If it were just Whent and Dayne at the Tower when Ned arrived, you might have a valid point about them staying solely out of loyalty to Rhaegar. But Hightower is the trump card: He's presented as being pretty by-the-book and it isn't suggested that he has a particular connection to Rhaegar. I don't think the "there for Rhaegar" excuse works for him, sorry.

Did Aerys have those four? Weren't three with Rhaegar at the battle of the trident? Aerys had one, Jaime Lannister the newbie. I'm still convinced they were loyal to Rhaegar not Aerys. Saying that's how the Bull is presented isn't evidence by the way, that's like saying Jaime Lannister never told anyone about his real reason for killing Aerys so he must just have been an opportunistic turncloak.

Edit: I'd like to point out I don't disbelieve that Lyanna and Rhaegar could be married, simply the true loyalty of the Kingsguard that I call into dispute.

[Boarsbane]

Dayne, Hightower and Whent died upholding their vows. Barristan went from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany, and only then because he was sacked. I don't recall him giving a solitary fuck about Dany and Viserys when they were running around the Free Cities as street urchins. He grew a conscience when he got the boot. So please, spare me the Barristan lovefest.

No they died after failing their vows miserably, allowing their king to be cut down by one of their own brothers while they were completely useless in the war to overthrow their king. Barristan does not strike me as the type to fear death and no one can question is loyalty to the Targaryens any more than they can the three failures. Selmy slew the last known Blackfyre pretender and saved Aerys' life single handily, but in the end he realized Viserys wasn't worth fighting for, the Baratheons and company had won. I would guess the other three realized it too but preferred to go down in a blaze of glory.

[UnmaskedLurker]

To this I would reply that isn't it perhaps possible that Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent's loyalty to the King rather than Rhaegar is overrated? We have no PoV's for these characters and they've all been long dead by the time of the series, how do we know where their true loyalties lie?

We have them say that if they had been at KL, they would have killed Jaime and save Aerys. So right before either they will die or will kill Ned, they tell Ned their loyalty. And Ned had a POV and views them incredibly favorably. So Ned thinks they took their vows quite seriously. And as Apple Martini points out, Hightower's loyalty and seriousness of his vows really cannot be questioned. Everything that is said or thought about him is that he was completely by the book.

[The Bittersteel]

We have them say that if they had been at KL, they would have killed Jaime and save Aerys. So right before either they will die or will kill Ned, they tell Ned their loyalty. And Ned had a POV and views them incredibly favorably. So Ned thinks they took their vows quite seriously. And as Apple Martini points out, Hightower's loyalty and seriousness of his vows really cannot be questioned. Everything that is said or thought about him is that he was completely by the book.

I'm not saying their disloyal to Aerys just more loyal to Rhaegar personally, which wouldn't cause people to look upon them unfavourably in my opinion. Of course it can be called into question, how many times is he even mentioned in the books? fewer than ten? Not enough is known about him to say he would be more loyal to Aerys, his actions say Rhaegar.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not saying their disloyal to Aerys just more loyal to Rhaegar personally, which wouldn't cause people to look upon them unfavourably in my opinion. Of course it can be called into question, how many times is he even mentioned in the books? fewer than ten? Not enough is known about him to say he would be more loyal to Aerys, his actions say Rhaegar.

We get enough information about Hightower to know that he was not more loyal to Rhaegar than to Aerys. Whent and Dayne were posted with Rhaegar, but Hightower was the head KG. He only left Aerys on his order to find Rhaegar. Hightower is the one that says that KG keep their vows, that they guard the king not judge him. We also know that Rhaegar has been dead for a while by this point, but what is the reason to stay loyal to a dead man. But again,that is really a side point. Whatever might have been true about Whent and Dayne's loyalty, Hightower cannot be viewed as being anything other than loyal to Aerys, not for any personal reason, but because he was a by-the-book LC of the KG. Given that this reputation is clear, Ned would not have thought of Hightower as one of the most honorable men if Ned believed that Hightower decided to follow Rhaegar over Aerys--and Ned would not even know that was his reason for staying because Hightower merely refers to his vow generically. The only vow that Ned would know about--the vow all KG make--is the vow to guard the king.

In addition, it is not just one piece of evidence. Go back to my OP. It is the weight of evidence after considering all of the clues.

[The Bittersteel]

We get enough information about Hightower to know that he was not more loyal to Rhaegar than to Aerys. Whent and Dayne were posted with Rhaegar, but Hightower was the head KG. He only left Aerys on his order to find Rhaegar. Hightower is the one that says that KG keep their vows, that they guard the king not judge him. We also know that Rhaegar has been dead for a while by this point, but what is the reason to stay loyal to a dead man. But again,that is really a side point. Whatever might have been true about Whent and Dayne's loyalty, Hightower cannot be viewed as being anything other than loyal to Aerys, not for any personal reason, but because he was a by-the-book LC of the KG. Given that this reputation is clear, Ned would not have thought of Hightower as one of the most honorable men if Ned believed that Hightower decided to follow Rhaegar over Aerys--and Ned would not even know that was his reason for staying because Hightower merely refers to his vow generically. The only vow that Ned would know about--the vow all KG make--is the vow to guard the king.

In addition, it is not just one piece of evidence. Go back to my OP. It is the weight of evidence after considering all of the clues.

Alright, your argument boils down to the Kingsguard being loyal to the king above all, fine. You can be loyal to someone's memory by the way to say you can't is ridiculous. An example from the series would be the Brotherhood without banners.

Hightower was sent to recover Rhaegar, mission success great. If Hightower was loyal to the king why didn't he return with Rhaegar and guard Aerys as would be the place of the LC? Instead he and three others spent their time not guarding the king, or even his heir but a possible third in line to the throne, Jon hadn't been born at this stage most likely so he might have been a girl making Viserys the rightful king. Why then would they do this? out of personal loyalty to Rhaegar I say, not to Aerys.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Alright, your argument boils down to the Kingsguard being loyal to the king above all, fine. You can be loyal to someone's memory by the way to say you can't is ridiculous. An example from the series would be the Brotherhood without banners.

Hightower was sent to recover Rhaegar, mission success great. If Hightower was loyal to the king why didn't he return with Rhaegar and guard Aerys as would be the place of the LC? Instead he and three others spent their time not guarding the king, or even his heir but a possible second in line to the throne, Jon hadn't been born at this stage most likely so he might have been a girl making Viserys the rightful king. Why then would they do this? out of personal loyalty to Rhaegar I say, not to Aerys.

Ok, I'll do this again. Prior to the death of Aerys, it was being loyal to Aerys to stay at ToJ because Aerys appeared to be safe and Jaime was with Aerys. Only one KG needs to be with king for the vow to be met. Obviously Rhaegar said something to Hightower to convince him to stay at ToJ while Rhaegar went to trident--probably that he would return with Hightower to KL once the battle was won. They stay at ToJ at that point because they can stay at ToJ and keep all of their vows.

Yes, they can be loyal to Rhaegar's memory, but that loyalty cannot supersede their first duty--to fulfill their vow to make sure the king is guarded (or at least has one KG with him to protect him). Once the 3 KG find out that Viserys is without any KG, at least one (maybe all three, but at least one) needed to go to him if he is the king. Why do ALL THREE stay at ToJ if Jon is not king and Viserys is king and unguarded.

I also re-ask you to look at OP. What about the other evidence, such as Bloodraven calling Jon king, and all the other evidence presented. Yes, this ToJ evidence is the strongest, but put together with the other evidence, it is a fairly solid theory. It seems that only a personal desire for it not to be true motivates people to try to come up with arguments to undermine it.

[The Bittersteel]

Ok, I'll do this again. Prior to the death of Aerys, it was being loyal to Aerys to stay at ToJ because Aerys appeared to be safe and Jaime was with Aerys. Only one KG needs to be with king for the vow to be met. Obviously Rhaegar said something to Hightower to convince him to stay at ToJ while Rhaegar went to trident--probably that he would return with Hightower to KL once the battle was won. They stay at ToJ at that point because they can stay at ToJ and keep all of their vows.

Yes, they can be loyal to Rhaegar's memory, but that loyalty cannot supersede their first duty--to fulfill their vow to make sure the king is guarded (or at least has one KG with him to protect him). Once the 3 KG find out that Viserys is without any KG, at least one (maybe all three, but at least one) needed to go to him if he is the king. Why do ALL THREE stay at ToJ if Jon is not king and Viserys is king and unguarded.

I also re-ask you to look at OP. What about the other evidence, such as Bloodraven calling Jon king, and all the other evidence presented. Yes, this ToJ evidence is the strongest, but put together with the other evidence, it is a fairly solid theory. It seems that only a personal desire for it not to be true motivates people to try to come up with arguments to undermine it.

I ask you to re-read my other posts, I'm not disagreeing with the idea that they married, not at all and I've stated that. I'm questioning the loyalty of the Kingsguard which I believe was to Rhaegar not Aerys. The fact that they are finding excuses and loopholes to fufill their vows by posting only the newest member with Aerys rather than guarding the king with more men supports my theory not yours. The question you should be asking is not why they stay once Aerys and Rhaegar are dead but why they are there when both are still alive? Why isn't the LC with the King? Why isn't one with Aegon who is second in line? Why isn't one with Viserys, who if Jon had been born a girl would be third in line? The answer is that they followed Rhaegar's orders out of loyalty for him and the belief that his child would be the Prince that was promised in my opinion.

[corbon]

The fact that most of them don't guard Aerys during Robert's rebellion is enough to disprove that statement. He isn't king if he's not crowned, he's the rightful heir. I don't see them disregarding possible alternatives in case Viserys falls. Their loyalty seems to lie more with Rhaegar (or his memory) it seems to me.

No.

The KG first priority is to guard the king. But as long as there is a KG guarding the king, they can and do regularly have other missions away from the King. We see this numerous times and the importance of having one KG with the king (which we always see) is amply demonstrated by the formalities and ceremonial rituals surround the KG meeting that Jaime presides over as LC and also when Jaime begs to swap with Darry before Rhaegars' army leaves KL for the Trident.

Dayne and Whent are clearly in that position from the start - their job appears to be with Rhaegar, not with Aerys, but thats fine because there is always someone else from the KG with Aerys. Slightly different, but similar in the end, is Hightower. Aerys sends him to get Rhaegar back to KL. Aerys probably expected Hightower to return, but unless he explicitly commanded him to, Rhaegar can legitimately reassign Hightower to guard Lyanna while he returns - Aerys still has Jaime guarding him, just as he did when he sent Hightower away.

Rhaegar either leaves Dayne/Whent behind with Hightower or more likely travels with one or both of them back to KL then sends them back to JoJ so that Aerys can't question them. Thats still fine because Jaime is guarding Aerys, and possibly Selmy, Martell and Darry are back as well.

So the three KG are at ToJ guarding Lyanna, while 4 KG are at KL with Aerys and Rhaegar. Thats all good and everyone is doing their duty, no one is breaking their vows.

Rhaegar takes Darry, Selmy and Martell off with the army and leaves Jaime with Aerys. Still all good, no one is breaking their vows.

After the sack, with Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar all dead, Viserys should be king. The 3KG are still guarding Lyanna at this stage, but they don't know immediately of course, so they are still following their duty exactly as they were before the Trident happened.

But by the time Ned gets to ToJ 3-4 weeks or so later, they clearly have gotten an update somehow. The conversation and responses show they know Aerys is dead, they know Rhaegar is dead, they know Aegon is dead, they know Viserys is on Dragonstone with no KG.

Unless there is another ahead of Viserys in the line of succession, they are all breaking their vows unless at least one of them goes to Viserys. Yet all three are still at ToJ when Ned arrives.

And they reaffirm their vows, their status as KG and their loyalty to Aerys during the conversation with Ned.

Clearly they do not consider Viserys as their king.

=> clearly there is someone else ahead of Viserys in the succession. And that someone is at ToJ or they would have sent one of their number at least to go to that person

Loyalty to Rhaegar is irrelevent really (and quite a ridiculous supposition in Hightower's case given his characterisation). They reaffirm their vows, and their KG status, and regardless of what they thought about Rhaegar, once Aerys/Aegon/Rhaegar are dead they must send a KG to protect 'king' Viserys or they are all failing their vows.

There are no excuses or loopholes. Their primary job as an organisation is to guard the king, and if their organisation is not doing this then they all are failing. But as long as their organisation is doing this, they must follow orders on other tasks. Until they get the update, they are following orders and Aerys has 4 other KG at his disposal so they are not in any way negligent.

Jon hadn't been born at this stage most likely so he might have been a girl making Viserys the rightful king. Why then would they do this? out of personal loyalty to Rhaegar I say, not to Aerys.

Viserys does not become King is Lyanna was married and pregnant, until a girl is actually born. Its called interregnum and happened several times in european history. If he's not king, they don't have to go to him.

But thats actually probably irrelevant. Its likely that their information source arrived not very much before Ned did (the information would have to disseminate from KL to their support locale first, then a messenger be sent by rider from their support. Assuming their support is from the most likely source, Starfall, it probably took a week or so for KL to settle down after the sack, organise the ravens and for a raven to get to Starfall, and then another week or so to get a messager from Starfall to ToJ, leaving only a week or two before Ned arrives, and Jon is probably born 5-10 days before Ned arrives. Jon may even have been born already when they got the news, or certainly close enough to birth that they might as well wait.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I ask you to re-read my other posts, I'm not disagreeing with the idea that they married, not at all and I've stated that. I'm questioning the loyalty of the Kingsguard which I believe was to Rhaegar not Aerys. The fact that they are finding excuses and loopholes to fufill their vows by posting only the newest member with Aerys rather than guarding the king with more men supports my theory not yours. The question you should be asking is not why they stay once Aerys and Rhaegar are dead but why they are there when both are still alive? Why isn't the LC with the King? Why isn't one with Aegon who is second in line? Why isn't one with Viserys, who if Jon had been born a girl would be third in line? The answer is that they followed Rhaegar's orders out of loyalty for him and the belief that his child would be the Prince that was promised in my opinion.

I get your point better now, but I still disagree. I will try to answer your questions.

The newest member is guarding Aerys because Aerys sent the other 4 away (3 to Trident and Hightower to find Rhaegar).

They are at ToJ while Rhaegar is alive because two of them are permanently stationed with Rhaegar and he told them to stay when he went to Trident. Hightower is there because after he found Rhaegar, Rhaegar somehow convinced him to stay at ToJ, not because he is more loyal to R than A, but because in order to fulfill his obligation to A, he had to get R to come with him to KL. Apparently the only way to do that was to stay at ToJ and wait for R to get back (which R never did because he died). This analysis also answer why LC (Hightower) is not with king at the time.

Aegon and Viserys were apparently safe at KL. They did not need any KG based on what the ToJ KG would have known. Jon is in danger, but Aegon and Viserys appeared to be safe. By the time they find out that they were not safe, it is too late--but NOT too late to try to get to Dragonstone (which they do not do).

[The Bittersteel]

I get your point better now, but I still disagree. I will try to answer your questions.

The newest member is guarding Aerys because Aerys sent the other 4 away (3 to Trident and Hightower to find Rhaegar).

They are at ToJ while Rhaegar is alive because two of them are permanently stationed with Rhaegar and he told them to stay when he went to Trident. Hightower is there because after he found Rhaegar, Rhaegar somehow convinced him to stay at ToJ, not because he is more loyal to R than A, but because in order to fulfill his obligation to A, he had to get R to come with him to KL. Apparently the only way to do that was to stay at ToJ and wait for R to get back (which R never did because he died). This analysis also answer why LC (Hightower) is not with king at the time.

Aegon and Viserys were apparently safe at KL. They did not need any KG based on what the ToJ KG would have known. Jon is in danger, but Aegon and Viserys appeared to be safe. By the time they find out that they were not safe, it is too late--but NOT too late to try to get to Dragonstone (which they do not do).

I in turn understand your point better now. So you think Rhaegar said to Hightower "either you stay or I'm staying to protect Lyanna" so Hightower stayed with no choice to protect the king if he wished Rhaegar to return. So your saying the reason the three of them stayed before Jon was born was out of force from Rhaegar's commands instead of personal loyalty to him? I have to disagree with Jon being in more danger though, I think at this stage everyone in the Targaryen royal family was in serious danger, at least Lyanna was hidden.

Edit: Thanks for explaining your point of view rather than just repeating the same arguements over and over, too many people do that on these boards. I have to say I think you've probably convinced me, I don't find it hard to believe that when Hightower arrived Rhaegar explained his belief about Jon and came up with the solution that would allow Hightower to stay protecting Lyanna without breaking his vows. I do still believe however that it is because the kingsguard trusted his judgement and were loyal to him to some extent that they went along with it.

[corbon]

I have to disagree with Jon being in more danger though, I think at this stage everyone in the Targaryen royal family was in serious danger, at least Lyanna was hidden.

The rest of the family are in an invincible Keep, never yet taken by force, with thousands of soldiers and gold cloaks. And an army larger than the rebels between them and the rebellion.

An extra KG or two make no real difference to their safety (for all the posturing these three make about how it all would have been different were they there).

Lyanna is in a broken down old watchtower. Her sole protection is secrecy, but secrecy is not protection against random chance.

2-3 KG make all the difference in the world if some brigands, wild animals or whatever turn up. They were very nearly enough against 7 well equipped veterans.

[The Bittersteel]

The rest of the family are in an invincible Keep, never yet taken by force, with thousands of soldiers and gold cloaks. And an army larger than the rebels between them and the rebellion.

An extra KG or two make no real difference to their safety (for all the posturing these three make about how it all would have been different were they there).

Lyanna is in a broken down old watchtower. Her sole protection is secrecy, but secrecy is not protection against random chance.

2-3 KG make all the difference in the world if some brigands, wild animals or whatever turn up. They were very nearly enough against 7 well equipped veterans.

It actually fell during the first Dance with Dragons and once the city fell two or three incredibly loyal men could have made all the difference for getting them out alive. The difference in size between the armies is negligible, didn't necessarily need all three I'm sure Rhaegar had loyal friends who could have protected them with Arthur Dayne as an alternative for example. Wild animals... really haha

[Lonin]

I believe that R + L = J, I also believe that Jon is legitimate. I am 99.9 percent sure that R and L were married.

However, I am not as certain about the theory of "there must always be one KG with the king." We don't actually know what the wording is for the KG vows, it certainly includes guarding and obeying the king.. what else, I don't know.

We now have had at least three examples of the King not being physically guarded by a member of the KG.

1.

Jaime was the only KG protecting Aerys, we know from the text that he had other duties that required him to be apart from Aerys. A specific example is when in charge of the defense of the Red Keep.

“It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. ‘Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor.’ Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant."

2.

We have also learned from Jaimes POV that the Kingsguard holds "All Hands" meetings and that the King is being protected by others.

3.

"The Princess and the Queen" also had an example of Aegon II not being protected by a member of the KG.

All three of these examples have extenuating circumstances, however three examples was enough for me to stop using the "there must be one KG with the king" argument.

I also believe that the three KG at the ToJ were loyal to Aerys, I think the Aerys vs Rhaegar tension is overstated by most.

[lareine]

I'm not saying their disloyal to Aerys just more loyal to Rhaegar personally, which wouldn't cause people to look upon them unfavourably in my opinion. Of course it can be called into question, how many times is he even mentioned in the books? fewer than ten? Not enough is known about him to say he would be more loyal to Aerys, his actions say Rhaegar.

I've never voiced this opinion on the forums before (and I'm sure I'll get tomatoes thrown my way), but I completely agree with you about Hightower. There's very little mention of him in the text at all and the strongest quote we're given about Hightower being a 'by-the-book' KG and not judging the king comes from Jaime whose opinion of his former LC may not be the most objective.

I'm not saying that I don't think he couldn't have been forced by Rhaegar to stand guard at the tower in exchange for Rhaegar's returning to the capital or that any of the other theories that have been put forth aren't possible. I think they're all very possible. But since the series isn't finished, I don't think its unreasonable to question what we've been told about Hightower and the other KG's so far or to assume we know with absolute certainty what they were or were not capable of.