Marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna Revisited

[Pengwin7]

OK... didn't know Vis was 4th. Thanks.

(Doesn't really matter... to me... in my crackpot world... Viserys, Rhaneys, Aegon VI are all bastards... so my lineage heir line goes straight from Rhaegar to Jon. And this is why I haven't spent too much time arguing these threads - cause it doesn't matter in my world. LOL)

[UnmaskedLurker]

OK... didn't know Vis was 4th. Thanks.

(Doesn't really matter... to me... in my crackpot world... Viserys, Rhaneys, Aegon VI are all bastards... so my lineage heir line goes straight from Rhaegar to Jon. And this is why I haven't spent too much time arguing these threads - cause it doesn't matter in my world. LOL)

That is fine as long as you don't confuse your world for the one that GRRM is creating.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Basically this. Not so much in the prophetic sense (Jon has both parents, ice and fire, no matter what) but in terms of the secrecy involved (Robert might kill Jon out of spite, but as a bastard he's politically toothless, whereas legitimate, he's a threat that warrants Ned's level of secrecy), the specific details of the Kingsguard being there (if Jon were a bastard, Ned could have easily found Lyanna in the same place, in the same condition, with a few random servants or even knights; there's a reason it's Kingsguard) and all of the various wordplay and clues in the stories ("bastards aren't allowed to hit princes" only makes sense as a joke if Jon is actually legitimate; that's the symmetry, that Joffrey is the bastard and Jon is the prince).

I think people get way too hung up on the polygamy thing, which, near as I can tell, is the only actual argument against this. Yet we have the author leave the polygamy issue quite open-ended. It could have happened again later. Straight up. He had the perfect chance to close the case and say, "No. Aegon and Maegor and no one else." But he didn't. Now, is this proof of polygamy, no. But it's proof that polygamy is possible, which, again, demolishes the primary point against the argument.

That, and the Rhaegar-Lyanna-Elia triangle resembles the Aegon-Lyanna-Visenya triangle. Aegon married Visenya out of duty. He married Rhaenys out of desire, because he wanted to.

Well this certainly sums up everything I was getting ready to say, and much better than I would have put it.

[IceFire125]

Jaime's ultimate redemption is to possibly be the person to protect, influence, and somehow or another, placing Jon on the Iron Throne. However, Jaime would die by doing this, he would be in circumstances and he would be led to believe that it's the necessary course he must take.

Jaime would be the person to reignite the Targaryen dynasty, once again, through Jon, the dynasty he ended when he killed Aerys. When he finds out about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's true legitimate child, it would be like an automatic switch within Jaime. His longing to fulfill his oath, his thirst to fulfill the promise he made to Rhaegar, but failed, will be the culminating factors that would lead him to vow his sword to Jon.

Now, instead of 'Kingslayer' he would be Ser Jaime the 'Kingmaker'.

[sj4iy]

Jaime's ultimate redemption is to possibly be the person to protect, influence, and somehow or another, placing Jon on the Iron Throne. However, Jaime would die by doing this, he would be in circumstances and he would be led to believe that it's the necessary course he must take.

Jaime would be the person to reignite the Targaryen dynasty, once again, through Jon, the dynasty he ended when he killed Aerys. When he finds out about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's true legitimate child, it would be like an automatic switch within Jaime. His longing to fulfill his oath, his thirst to fulfill the promise he made to Rhaegar, but failed, will be the culminating factors that would lead him to vow his sword to Jon.

Now, instead of 'Kingslayer' he would be Ser Jaime the 'Kingmaker'.

I love the idea of this. I really want Jaime to have some sort of redemptive arc like this.

[Lonin]

would he have been assigned a kingsguard regardless considering he was fourth in line to the throne behind Rhaeggar, his two children (without counting Jon)?

Viserys was behind Rhaegar and Aegon (excluding Jon) so third in line.

Assign a Kingsguard to Viserys? Barristan Selmy answers your question:

"The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to

obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent

when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor.

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others,

even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend

their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally

even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for

those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides."

Martin, George R.R. (2011-07-12). A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five

(Kindle Locations 14629-14635). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

[Pengwin7]

"The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to

obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent

when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor.

Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others,

even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend

their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally

even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for

those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides."

Thanks!!! That's an awesome info.

Does this forum have a REP system?

Anyways - is the popular theory that Aerys assigned the Kingsguard around the time of Trident/Sack of KL... or was Aerys considered delusional enough where Rhaegar was assigning Kingsguard?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Anyways - is the popular theory that Aerys assigned the Kingsguard around the time of Trident/Sack of KL... or was Aerys considered delusional enough where Rhaegar was assigning Kingsguard?

My understanding is that the following is the time line of events. First, Rhaegar has two KG assigned to him, Whent and Dayne, who were more or less a permanent assignment. The other 5 are at KL with Aerys and the rest of the royal family. Rhaeger and his 2 KG take off with Lyanna. At some point, probably about a year later (but at least nine months later, I get the time line a little confused in my mind, but it has to be enough time for Jon to be born or almost born), Aerys sends Hightower, LC of KG, to bring Rhaegar back to KL. The other 4 KG stay behind at KL. Hightower finds Rhaegar, presumably at ToJ, and Rhaegar travels back to KL, presumbably with Whent and Dayne. Rhaegar apparently sends Whent and Dayne back to ToJ to help Hightower protect Lyanna and Jon. Aerys gets Rhaegar to agree to be the general at the Trident and Rhaegar leaves with 3 of the KG--who are sent by Aerys to help Rhaegar in the battle. Only Jaime is left behind at KL to be the sole KG guarding Aerys. So Aerys may be mad, but he is still basically lucid and able to make more or less rationale strategic decisions. And the assignments of KG are technically done by Aerys, but obviously Rhaegar manipulated the situation to keep 3 KG at ToJ. Then Rhaegar and 2 of the 3 KG at Trident die (Selmy is gravely injured but ultimately survives). The 3 KG at ToJ die at the hands of Ned and his group. And Jaime kills Aerys to prevent him from destroying KL. So only 2 of 7 KG survive the war.

I think I have that basically right (going from memory). I hope that helps.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Jaime's ultimate redemption is to possibly be the person to protect, influence, and somehow or another, placing Jon on the Iron Throne. However, Jaime would die by doing this, he would be in circumstances and he would be led to believe that it's the necessary course he must take.

Jaime would be the person to reignite the Targaryen dynasty, once again, through Jon, the dynasty he ended when he killed Aerys. When he finds out about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's true legitimate child, it would be like an automatic switch within Jaime. His longing to fulfill his oath, his thirst to fulfill the promise he made to Rhaegar, but failed, will be the culminating factors that would lead him to vow his sword to Jon.

Now, instead of 'Kingslayer' he would be Ser Jaime the 'Kingmaker'.

Wow, I think this is a great idea. I've given a lot of thought to Jaime's redemption arc, and this would be something worthy of going in the "White Book", or the Book of Brothers.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

OP,

You are very selective in your quotations in order to support your arguments. I am going to provide some counter quotations, but first let me make my argument:

The three Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy because Rhaegar ordered them to be there. When the King, the crown prince, and the crown prince's son died they had to face the fact that they had fundamentally failed in their duty. Also, with Viserys going into exile, the Targaeryans were no longer the kings of Westeros. The new king, Robert Baratheon, was accepted by every lord of Westeros and this legitimately made him the new king. The three KG did not believe their honor would allow them to serve the new king. However, they could not go into exile, because as they say in the passage you mention, the Kingsguard do not flee. So they elected to follow the last order given, and fight to the death. That is why Ned thinks of them as being of the highest honor. Because they knowingly died in a hopeless fight for it.

Now let me provide some counter quotations:

Mtn Lion has an excellent line-by-line analysis that has been reproduced in a number of threads, and I will not try to go through each point here. The most important lines that are relevant to this question is the discussion of the queen and Viserys going to Dragonstone. Ser Gerold points out that the man protecting them (Willem Darry) is not KG and that the KG do not flee. Ser Arthur agrees, and Ser Gerold clarifies “We swore a vow.” This line is probably the most important line in understanding that R & L were married. Unless all 3 KG believed that Jon and not Viserys was the rightful heir to the throne, at least one, if not all three, of the KG would have tried to get to Viserys. Ned seems to be giving them an out—leave my sister alone and leave to guard the person you consider to be your king. But the KG do not accept Ned’s apparent offer, notwithstanding that the first duty of the KG is to guard the king. The only logical explanation is that the KG are already guarding the person they consider to be their king—Jon.

Ned later thinks of these men as men of the highest honor. Given the primary vow of a KG is to protect the king, this view by Ned makes most sense if Ned believes that they died defending their king, Jon. Ned would have no other knowledge of any other oath or vow that might have kept the 3 KG at ToJ. Once Ned talks to Lyanna and finds out the entire story, Ned comes to understand that the KG were guarding ToJ because Jon was their rightful king. Otherwise, Ned likely would have considered them to be something other than having the highest honor (not necessarily dishonorable, just not such high honor) because they made no attempt to try to guard Viserys. That behavior is only consistent with the highest honor if Jon is really the king in the eyes of the KG, and the KG can only consider Jon to be king if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. In addition, Ned buried Lyanna with the Stark kings, which makes sense if Lyanna really was a Queen (as mother of the king).

It is folly to put a lot of stock on line by line analysis of what is said and done of the ToJ dream. As Martin himself says, it was a fever dream and not reliable.

"I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal."

Moving on, as you'll see below, Martin specifically answered the question as to why they were there, and the answer was that Rhaegar ordered them to be there. There is nothing in canon that suggests that if the king dies, all KG have to immediately go running to the new king. When Joffrey died, did Arys Oakheart abandon his post? No, he followed the last order he was given, which was to protect Myrcella. The timing is very tricky to suggest that the KG stayed there to protect the new king. By this I mean, how did they know they were protecting the future king at all? Lyanna could have been pregnant with a girl. In fact, given the way Rhaegar named his children, he probably expected that Lyanna would have a girl. When Aerys and Aegon died at King's Landing, according to your logic they should have fled at once to Dragonstone to guard Viserys. Instead, they hung around the ToJ to see what kind of baby Lyanna was going to have. Heck, they could have sent at least one of them, just in case. But they didn't. They followed the last order they were given.

"The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

Speaking of Arys Oakheart, he acknowledges the point Arianne makes that he never swore any vows to King Tommen, which is why he could justifiably support Myrcella's claim over Tommen's. This would imply that vows aren't inherited, but rather they need to be renewed or resworn for a new king. Now sure, in most cases it goes without saying that the Kingsguard will continue their duties during the transition of power. But the end of Robert's Rebellion are hardly normal, and with the king, his heir, and his heir's heir dead, it is certainly reasonable to think that the normal transfer of kingsguard oaths have been disrupted.

Moving on, you suggest that the character of both Lyanna and Rhaegar would demand marriage. But would it? Lyanna is a wild and free spirit. It's equally plausible that she wouldn't care for convention. Indeed, she certainly enjoyed horseback riding and sword fighting, neither of which are very conventional for a woman. Further, we know that Lyanna did not want to marry Robert because he wouldn't be faithful. And yet you think it is logical that she would then run off with a married man and be his second wife?

You also state that Ned thinks of them as being honorable men, which means they must have been guarding the king. This is nonsense. He also thinks of Barristan Selmy as being an honorable man, and Barristan Selmy declined to go protect Viserys, or Jon, but rather decided that his vow meant that he could serve the King of the Realm, even if he wasn't a Targaeryan. In Barristan's, and apparently Ned's mind, it is honorable to recognize that a dynasty had fallen and transfer your loyalty to the new dynasty. The three kingsguard, who did not see Robert's chivalry and generosity after the battle the way Barristan had, were unable to bring themselves to serve the new king.

On Polygamy:

Let me finish the quote, and provide the part you left out:

Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

Yes, there is precedent, but with the death of the dragons, it becomes much more dangerous. Even when the Targaeryans had dragons, from what we've seen in The Princess and the Queen, and the Rogue Prince, polygamous marriages after Maegor are almost unheard of, if not entirely unheard of. I forget which one, but one of them makes it clear that even Aegon's polygamous marriage was considered very unusual. As we saw in the Rogue Prince, it is within the King's power to set aside a marriage. Any second marriage, made without either party's father's consent, and made without the king's consent would be on very ahaky ground, and would be subject to being annulled as soon as the King found out about it. As we know, Aerys was already suspicious of Rhaegar, so I doubt he would permit Rhaegar to bind both Dorne and the North to him through marriage.

In Dany’s vision at the House of the Undying, Rhaegar refers to Aegon as “the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” It appears to be fairly clear that Rhaegar was wrong about Aegon being the prince that was promised because he is likely dead (or will be dead) and was not the song of ice and fire. Jon must be the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). If he is the song of ice and fire, then he presumably is the “prince that was promised” and not the “bastard that was promised.” A prince is the legitimate son of a king or prince, not the bastard son of a king or prince (unless later legitimized). So the be the prince that was promised, Jon’s parents must have been married.

Rhaegar then says, “There must be one more… The dragon has three heads.” This quote suggests that Rhaegar believed he needed to have another child. While it might be possible that Rhaegar would consider any child, legitimate or not, to be the third head of the dragon, I don’t think so. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy and believed at that time that he needed to have three children to save the world—presumably Aegon and his two sisters (like the original Aegon). Rhaegar would have wanted a legitimate third child to serve this purpose to maximize the power of the three heads. Obviously his view was wrong (at a minimum, his daughter is already dead and his son probably is dead or will be), but all that is relevant is Rhaegar’s belief at that time. Elia could not have a third child, so marrying another woman became Rhaegar’s only option. In addition, it seems likely that once he realized that Lyanna is ice to his fire, the marriage seemed inevitable to him. Polygamy might not have been his first choice, but under the circumstances, it became his only choice.

There are a few problems here. One, it presumes that Jon is the Prince that Was Promised, and not Dany. Rhaegar is clearly wrong about this a lot, since he first thought it was himself, and then thought it was his son Aegon. There is no reason to suspect that Jon, if he is Rhaegar's son, has to be the Prince that was Promised. Further, from Rhaegar's perpsective, he thought that it would be Aegon, so there was no need for him to marry to have a legitimate son to fulfill the prophecy. Even still, there is no reason that the Prince who was Promised has to be legitimate. But say that you're right, it is far easier for Rhaegar to simply legitimize Jon when he is king than to try and force a polygamous marriage on Westeros. King's legitimize their bastard children all the time. They almost never take second wives.

The books include allusions to Jon being a king. I will not try to find all of them, but they have been cited in other threads. Two of the more popular that I can recall are when Mormont’s raven (well, actually likely Bloodraven skinchanging into the raven) appears to refer to Jon Snow as king. Robert also joked to Ned about kings in the north hiding in the snow. These allusions make sense only if Jon is the rightful Targaryen heir, which requires a marriage between R & L.

This is more selective quotations on your part. For every time the raven calls out "king" I can show a time the raven called out "snow", meaning he's a bastard.

This factor is the most subjective. Some people view this factor the other way, primarily that Jon’s central identity is as a bastard, and GRRM would ruin this identity by making him true born. Similarly they argue that the trope is fully undermined if a non-true born is the hero rather than a hidden king. These views notwithstanding, the story arc I see is one in which Jon Snow’s entire identity has been a lie. He is not the son of Ned, and he is not a bastard. Joffrey was a bastard, raised as a true-born king, while Jon is a true-born king, raised as a bastard. The symmetry makes sense. If the point of the “reveal” is to turn Jon’s world upside down and prepare him for the final battle, the knowledge of the identity of his parents might be enough, but the knowledge that his parents actually were married and wanted him would be even more poignant. We have been told by GRRM that the ending is “bittersweet” and by D&D (who were told the ending by GRRM) that it is “satisfying.” While those statements can mean almost anything other than a “happily ever after” ending, Jon being the legitimate Targ heir seems to be quite consistent with those ideas.

One could also state that Jon is really the son of Ned and Ashara, while (F)Aegon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, and the symmetry is that Ned made the hard decision to take a child (Jon), from his mother (Ashara), and gave Ashara a king's son (FAegon) to be sent away for his protection. This is the exact decision Jon later makes with Gilly and Mance's son. We even have the symmetry of the death in child birth.

At the end of your post, you talk about the timing again, which I mentioned earlier. I will speak a little more about that now. If we assume the dream is literal, despite what Martin says, than Ned found her in her "bed of blood". As we know, in Westeros this means it was in her birthing bed. I would contend though that it is used literally at the birthing. Unless you think they left her in bloody sheets for 7-10 days after the birth? I mean, when does the bed of blood become just a regular bed again? I would argue that using the term 'bed of blood' suggests an immediacy of the birth.

Again, if we consider the dream to be literal, even when Martin says it is not, then it is a very illogical conversation. The three KG make no attempt to negotiate with Ned, nor do they sound him out on what he feels about the child, his sister, and their disposition. They supposedly risk the king's life on a 3vs7 combat, when they best way to keep him safe is for there to not be any fight at all. In the dream, we see that all three KG are waiting for Ned, so they apparently saw them riding in from a distance. They thought it was better to fight 3vs7 rather than send one away with the baby? They thought it was better to fight out in the open rather than taking a defensive position inside the tower? They decided to confront mounted men on foot?

These are not the actions of men who will do anything to protect their king. They are the actions of men seeking to die in honorable combat.

Lyanna would have been left behind, and as the presumed Regent, it is not clear they could leave without her. But even assuming they could leave without her, there is no evidence that the 3 KG had reason to believe that Jon would be safer if they left. Robert won the war, and his men would be searching for them. Traveling with an infant is not necessarily an easier way to stay hidden. The location of ToJ had stayed a secret for some time. Laying low until they could arrange for safe transport likely was their best option. Ned showed up before they could leave.

The king's mother isn't as important at the king himself. Nor is there any reason to think that she would be the presumed regent. In fact, there probably wouldn't be any regent at all, since there is no kingdom to be a regent of. Their only choice is to go into exile. How long did you think they were going to hide at the ToJ for? Their location couldn't have been all that secret, since Hightower was able to find them. Clearly someone in the capital knew to send him there to find Rhaegar. Once the capital fell, it should be assumed that the secrecy of the ToJ was compromised, as it clearly was.

Also, your argument that Robert would have people looking for them, so they shouldn't leave, does not ring true. Every delay gives Robert more time to consolidate, and every day they wait means the usurper's army can get that much closer to Dorne. Their best bet is to get on a ship before Robert can consolidate control of the seven kingdoms, not wait around until they are found. Again, how long did you expect them to wait for? How long do you think it would take Robert to stop looking for his beloved Lyanna if he had no word about her fate?

Even if Rhaegar ordered the KG to stay at the ToJ, once Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead, and Viserys is presumably the next in line, the primary duty to have at least one KG with the king would take precedence. As Hightower stated, the KG “swore an oath to guard the king.” If another KG is guarding the king or if there is a direct order from the king to be somewhere else or if the king slips away, then there might be temporary exceptions. But under these circumstances, the need to send at least one KG to Viserys to protect him would take precedence over obeying the last order from Rhaegar, who is dead and was never the king. GRRM gives us the clue when Hightower says to Ned “We swore a vow.” GRRM is giving the reader a big clue that in Hightower’s mind, he is indicating that he cannot leave for Dragonstone because he is obligated to guard Jon, the heir to the Targaryen dynasty and rightful king.

I am going to end by reiterating my main point. There is no need to send a KG after Viserys, because he is not the king. He is in exile. They never swore an oath to defend him, and he was never coronated. He never sat on the Iron Throne. None of the lords of Westeros have sworn fealty to him. He is not the king so there is no need for the KG to go running to protect him. The KG swore an oath to obey, and they are going to follow the last order given to them to the death rather than serve a usurper.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

One last quote, in A Game of Thrones, Ned thinks about Jon Snow as being a bastard.

She smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart right out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

[Anath]

The King's mother or not, Lyanna couldn't be regent to anyone. She was 15, under the age of majority for boys even. If a minor Targaryen king needed a royal regent, it would not be his mother who was never queen since Rhaegar was never king, who has not reached majority and whose marriage was dubious even if there was a septon or a heart tree to sanction Rhaegar's polygamous wedding. Rickard never gave his consent for the match. Interesting that Viserys didn't give his consent for Rhaenyra to become second wife to the married Daemon and she didn't try the very thing she did once Daemon's wife Laena died. Presumably, even she realized that she could not pull it off with both a polygamous marriage and her father's lack of consent.

Rhaella makes much more sense as regent given the circumstances.

[Ygrain]

One last quote, in A Game of Thrones, Ned thinks about Jon Snow as being a bastard.

Let me provide the full quote:

“I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

The situation mirrors the one with Lyanna - a young mother worried about the wellbeing of her child, and he promises to take care of it.

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him.

Barra's mother's response to the promise mirrors that of Lyanna.

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.

He had just been reminded of Lyanna and his promise, and by claiming Jon as his bastard, he sentenced him to the life with the stain of bastardy.

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

He had just seen another of Robert's bastards, had just spoken to the mother, had been deeply touched by her youth and naive trust in Robert. He is thinking here about Robert's lusts and their fruit, not his own, also because

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

[MooseHB]

If Rhaegar was their friend like we've been led to believe, they would follow his orders. The current KG does a ton of things outside of actually guarding the king.

Honoring the order of their dead friend, over keeping their sworn vow to guard their king?

Not likely for three guys the Ned considers of the highest honor.

By that time, there was no Targ king. Baratheon was on the throne, which is why they didn't bend. Carrying out the last wish of their king is enough reason to be there. Go to Dragonstone with Viserys when he was a boy soon to be captured next?

Let's assume for a second that there is no heir to guard in the ToJ. Then the three KG should be on their way to either Viserys, or Robert, if they are upholding their KG vows. It's not for them to decide Viserys' chances, it's for them to seek to protect him, should there be no KG to do so, which they clearly state Darry is not, in the ToJ convo with the Ned. By not one leaving the ToJ, then they are terrible oathkeepers, and unfit for the KG.

But that runs contrary to the Ned's informed opinion of the 3KG that they are the most upstanding gents he's ever had the chance to encounter, and his subsequent actions regarding Dawn, and the eight cairns.

So we have a contradiction. Logically, the only option left is to reject the assumption. That is in bold, above. Which means, there must be an heir (or at minimum someone the 3KG consider an heir) in the ToJ.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Let me provide the full quote:

“I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

The situation mirrors the one with Lyanna - a young mother worried about the wellbeing of her child, and he promises to take care of it.

This is assuming that Lyanna's promise has to do with the well being of her child. When Robert is dying and makes Ned promise to eat the boar that killed him, he also thinks of Lyanna's promise. Perhaps she made him promise to eat the child that killed her?

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him.

Barra's mother's response to the promise mirrors that of Lyanna.

What, that they both smiled? Hardly an ironclad conclusion. Lyanna's smile at the promise was neither tremulous or sweet.

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.

He had just been reminded of Lyanna and his promise, and by claiming Jon as his bastard, he sentenced him to the life with the stain of bastardy.

Again, this is assuming that Lyanna's promise had to do with children, and assuming that it is related exactly to what is going on around him, which we've seen is not true. One could just as easily see that fact that he thinks of him as Jon SNOW further reinforces that he's a bastard in truth.

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? “Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert’s bastards?”

He had just seen another of Robert's bastards, had just spoken to the mother, had been deeply touched by her youth and naive trust in Robert. He is thinking here about Robert's lusts and their fruit, not his own, also because

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

Let me fix that for you by removing the part that's not actually in this passage. Plus, in context it is referring to Robert being overweight, not lustful. As I mentioned above, he thinks of him as Jon SNOW. A bastard.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Let's assume for a second that there is no heir to guard in the ToJ. Then the three KG should be on their way to either Viserys, or Robert, if they are upholding their KG vows. It's not for them to decide Viserys' chances, it's for them to seek to protect him, should there be no KG to do so, which they clearly state Darry is not, in the ToJ convo with the Ned. By not one leaving the ToJ, then they are terrible oathkeepers, and unfit for the KG.

But that runs contrary to the Ned's informed opinion of the 3KG that they are the most upstanding gents he's ever had the chance to encounter, and his subsequent actions regarding Dawn, and the eight cairns.

If this were a true representation of Ned's thoughts, then he would also have to consider Barristan Selmy to be dishonorable for abandoning Viserys. He does not. There is no reason for the 3KG to go to Viserys when Viserys is an exiled prince who is not the King of Westeros.

[Anath]

If this were a true representation of Ned's thoughts, then he would also have to consider Barristan Selmy to be dishonorable for abandoning Viserys. He does not. There is no reason for the 3KG to go to Viserys when Viserys is an exiled prince who is not the King of Westeros.

Even Ned, who doesn't know that there might be a Targaryen child in this tower, doesn't call Viserys "your king", although he has all the reasons in the world to believe that Viserys is the king those three acknowledge. He just claims that their queen and Prince Viserys have fled.

[Ygrain]

"I might be serving in King’s Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he’d ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service -”

Funny that Viserys was never crowned, yet Barry thinks him a king.

As for Ned's assessment of Barristan, he thinks him honourable, but when asked about the best KG evarr, he names Dayne, not Selmy.

[Ygrain]

I never claimed that the last quote belonged to the same passage, please forgive me the terrible sin of thinking the posters to be able to recodnize that this came from Ned's first PoV chapter.

The rest... horses and water, indeed.

[sj4iy]

Uh, no. That last sentence was not JUST about Robert being overweight. It was about how he enjoyed all the pleasures in life, food, drink and women included.

And really, the above quote about bastards just shows that Ned feels sorry for anyone who leads a bastard's life...not necessarily that Jon IS a bastard, but that that is the type of life that Jon has. He probably feels even worse because we know that he doesn't think that Jon deserves it, yet that is the life that lies in store for Jon, and by Ned's own doing.