A Feast for the Dead, a Snow in the Tombs, a Dream in Dust

[Parizad]

Could it be that Jon is a sort of King beyond the wall and him and his people, the freefolk, are dead while eating fowl (the NW)? I mean Jon and the freefolk try to fight NW brothers but get killed in the process. Jon is already probably dead or not so dead, specially if he can warg into Ghost and the freefolk will be dead sooner or later in his absence. He really needs some help, hence the mute appeal. Where does the lamb scepter and Iron crown fit into this, I can't tell.

Jon is surrounded by the dead (skulls) in Melissandre's vision as well.

[Kyoshi]

Yes the Direwolf could very well be the mother of the wolves, except Jaime doesn't really have a connection with that particular direwolf unless it is just a symbol for the Starks...maybe a manifestation of his guilt over Bran.

I do think you're on to something about the Starks deriving power from their direwolves. I think Jaime distancing himself from the Lannisters has more to do with Brienne and what he had learnt about himself through his travels with her.

I think Theon seeing Robb and Grey wind was more prophetic, in that it symbolised Robb and Grey wind were going to enter the feast of the dead soon. Another way for Theon to feel guilty about betraying Robb and the Starks. In Theon's dream Robb was about to enter the feast of the dead and in Jons dream he was there, which is why i think the direwolf was Grey Wind. Jon probably thinks of Summer because he believes Bran to be dead.

I agree that Theon's dream was prophetic while Jon's was informative. The reason Jon thinks the direwolf is Summer is because he "knows" Bran is dead, if Bran is dead then so is Summer. Robb also wondered how Theon could have succeeded in killing his brothers while the wolves were still with them. The Starks realsie there is power in the direwolves. The problem I have with Jon seeing the wolf as Summer is that he doesn't question why Shaggydog is not there. He simply accepts that it was Summer and that's where it ends.

It also makes sense that the wolf in Jon's dream is Grey Wind since Jon has the dream after the Red Wedding while Theon has it before. Like I posited, Grey Wind had already made his way down to the crypts by the time Jon had the dream. The dream transcends dreamers and time it would seem.

I'll try and find the quote where IIRC, Theon is somewhat jealous for not having been given a direwolf. I think that may be one of the reasons he had the prophetic dream. I think that without even realising it, Theon was becoming a Stark with every passing year. Additionally, Ned's bed was made of weirwood wood. That could have induced the dream. IIRC, Jaime had his dream while leaning on a weirwood tree. It seems to me that the old gods are the key factor in having these prophetic/informative dreams. Like Julia H. says, they have the same "source"

Really interesting thread guys, I don't have much to offer but I have enjoyed the posts I have read, nice & civilised with no derisive content, refreshing change. I believe you & Apple before you have the gist of a good theory here Kyoshi, it's tricky to determine which of these twists are going to be important. I'm getting the feeling that GRRM will actually leave a lot of these teasers unanswered & left to the readers interpretation of the dreams.

The only issue I have is why Theon would have a prophetic dream? perhaps the severe trauma he has endured triggered something (or maybe it's Weirwood induced) Barring that the other theory about him dreaming about himself (apologies to that poster, can't recall the name) also gives a different but totally credible insight for this too.

That's the trick isn't it, deciding which of these little "discoveries" will turn out to be important in the end. Hopefully, we're on to something. If not, this thread will still have been a worthy experience. I like these kinds of things, shared dreaming and prophetic dreams in fantasy :cool4: :laugh:

What I really like about Robb's appearance in Theon's dream is that it can be prophetic - Robb will die - but it can also be a manifestation of Theon's unacknowledged guilt: His failure to win the Ironborn over and his subsequent betrayal of Robb left Robb bereft and deeply wounded, both emotionally (Robb had trusted him and wanted to make him an ally instead of a hostage) and politically - Robb had lost his own castle, the centre of his power as a king, and had also lost his brothers as well as other people he had trusted and loved.

I've thought of that, too, but the only connection is that some of the characters present in the two dreams are the same, which is a sort of connection, but not the kind of connection that we have been exploring here, i.e. the dreams being different parts of the same shared dream. Also, Ned's ToJ-dream recalls past events, while Jaime's has relevance to Jaime's present and, I believe, future. Ned is focused on Lyanna, while the three other dreams - Jon's, Theon's and Jaime's - focus on similar issues, as mentioned above, like father-son relationship, guilt and betrayal, and they all reflect on important changes in the characters' present life, all of them have direwolves etc. Besides, Jaime's dream has clear parallels with Jon's - both of them are going downwards, to an underground place, both of them are afraid of what they would find there, both of them think of Ned Stark (who is actually present in Theon's dream), both of them feel abandoned by their family members, and so on. It is also important that Jame's dream is a weirwood dream, while Ned's is not, Theon and Jon are also in places where the weirwood connection (the power of the Old Gods) is strong, so the dreams are likely to come from the "same source", while Ned's dream is based primarily on his memories.

That's very interesting. I wonder if Theon subconsciously thought his betrayal would lead to Robb's death since it's after he realises that everyone at the feast is dead when he is joined by Robb and Grey Wind.

It hit me hard last night that Jaime's direwolf is Lady. Besides hit time with Brienne, it seems that the major factor driving Jaime's change of persona is the search for Sansa. The fact that he is surrounded by ghosts with Brienne as his protector seems to be a measure of how much his life hinges upon her...which in turn depends on her ability to uphold her oath to Cat.

Theon swore to serve with Robb as a brother, a choice that Cat took from Jon. So it only seems fitting that Grey Wind stare daggers through Theon as he walks through the doors. The RW was bad, but seems pretty cut & dry politics compared to what Theon reportedly did at awful to Bran &Rickon.

Jon has never had the chance to "prove his worth", at least to family/the Starks. He was sent to the wall, essentially by Cat, rather than stay with Robb. Ultimately, I doubt it would have made any difference if Jon were with Robb, but the fact that he wasn't & is essentially rudderless sets the stage for the crypts of WF. The wolves of Wf are calling to each of them. For Theon, I think it does foreshadow doom, for Jon, identity, & for Jaime, a second chance at judgment in the eyes of the Old Gods.

Also add that Lannisters (Cersei and Joffrey--his lover and his son) were responsible for the death of Lady and by extension, Sansa's "downfall"...for lack of a better word. I would say Sansa is the Stark furthest from Northern values and the old gods. Jaime deciding to keep his oath and help the lost (in every sense of the word) Stark is either a result or a cause of his drift from the Lannisters. I'm in favour of it being a cause. If it's a cause then the old gods interfered. At least that's what I think you're saying :dunno: But why Jaime?

Another layer for Jon's dream in the crypts may be coming... We know he's been stabbed and lost consciousness. Few actually believe his storyline is ended, but assume he'll warg into Ghost while his body is in a coma. In that coma though he might revisit the crypt dream, believing himself to be dead, but is told by the dead that his place isn't with them... because he isn't dead.

My own personal crackpot (I think it's a common theory though) is that Jon's first chapter in TWOW will be the completion of the dream.

EDIT: kindly forgive spelling and grammatical errors and incoherence, heavily medicated.

[Winter'sFallen]

That's the trick isn't it, deciding which of these little "discoveries" will turn out to be important in the end. Hopefully, we're on to something. If not, this thread will still have been a worthy experience. I like these kinds of things, shared dreaming and prophetic dreams in fantasy :cool4: :laugh:

:dunno: But why Jaime?

Since I'm not quite finished with my 1st full reread of AffC & have only spot reread DwD, I'll apologize ahead of what may be a disjointed reply to why Jaime?

GoT Jaime...vain, cocky, the equivalent of a star, jock HS football player (no offense intended)... all brawn no brains, ONLY concerned with pleasing & doing other things with Cersei, period. Little backstory other than the name "Kingslayer", no depth of thought, only action

CoK Jaime...captured by northmen, after killing a number of them who fulfilled their vows to protect Robb with their lives, sent to the dungeons & starts his meeting with Cat, exactly like GoT Jaime, vain, arrogant, & vengeful, just like Cersei. But where I think he starts to break from his twin is the fact that he backs down & actually begins a dialog with Cat. iirc, This is where we get initial backstory of life in the KG under Aerys, the atrocities he observed, & the fact that he questioned what he was doing, not because of how it affected Cersei, but in terms of his own persona.

SoS Jaime...where we see him really begin evolution through/with Brienne. 1st consumed with escape & revenge on his captors...until Brienne fights him to a standstill/defeat. Ultimately I think it's this grudgingly earned respect that really is a turning point for Jaime. He realizes that his life in golden armor means that he has more invested in his physical armor & sword, until he loses the hand, than any identity that he holds in any positive esteem. That reflection really shines through when he discussed the KG as it exists in SoS, compared to when he took the White. His memories of those that came before him are in stark contrasts with the thugs & yes men that seem to be his "brothers" in white. He is genuinely moved that an ungainly woman in a man's world can have more honor than any of his sworn brothers.

AffC/DWD Jaime...so here my timeline gets fuzzy as to why Jaime. He cannot wait to leave KL because for the 1st time he sees Cersei as the reader sees her...vain, arrogant, vengeful & more concerned with how her father sees her than any self validation. They were twins & exactly the same, living to impress someone else until he lost his hand & identity (which Kyoshi & Ellfoy have discussed as the beginning of his break from Lannisters). Such a big deal has been made of the twins being so similar no one could tell them apart. Now that Jaime is not "whole", he seems to realize that who he was & who Cersei is are people that are not song worthy like SoM, Whitebull, Barristan...

He alone of the "powers that be" representing the King in Westeros seems to be taking the oncoming winter seriously as he mentions it repeatedly on his travels though the Riverlands. Another interesting observation that with all of his time spent in the Riverlands, I don't remember Jaime actually coming in contact with the 4legged wolfpack that seems to haunt all of the other travelers. I don't know, maybe Bran or BR has seen something that requires Jaime & Jon to meet. There has certainly been enough discussed in Jaime's POV to suggest that the KG has had a hand in elevating kings in the past, not that Jaime has any interest in Jon at this point.

So, the arc seems enough to me to be validation for the Old Gods interest in Jaime, esp when Brienne's stated quest & initial vow is to find the lost wolves, Sansa & Arya. Jaime has the chance to truly break free from his "kingslayer" persona & all of it's baggage by finding Sansa, but will need Brienne & the Old Gods to get him past LS, who, much like Cersei, has become Aerys, mad & vengeful.

The ultimate answer as to why Jaime...who else within the current ruling powers of Westeros deserves redemption & is making an attempt to set things right going forward, regardless of the past? Honor is it's own quest for Jaime & that seems to align him way closer to the Old Gods than the Boltons or Freys, or even LS at this point. He seems to be putting aside the past & looking to the future, better for everyone, not just the nobility...after all Winter IS Coming.

[igrewupinKL]

I agree that Theon's dream was prophetic while Jon's was informative. The reason Jon thinks the direwolf is Summer is because he "knows" Bran is dead, if Bran is dead then so is Summer. Robb also wondered how Theon could have succeeded in killing his brothers while the wolves were still with them. The Starks realsie there is power in the direwolves. The problem I have with Jon seeing the wolf as Summer is that he doesn't question why Shaggydog is not there. He simply accepts that it was Summer and that's where it ends.

It also makes sense that the wolf in Jon's dream is Grey Wind since Jon has the dream after the Red Wedding while Theon has it before. Like I posited, Grey Wind had already made his way down to the crypts by the time Jon had the dream. The dream transcends dreamers and time it would seem.

Yes you have put it here really well! i wonder why Jon doesn't recognise grey wind or question as to where shaggy dog is because shaggy dog is very distinguishable.

[Julia H.]

"Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband' eyes."

Another Stark with this "mute appeal". They are talking about Jon, and the "mute appeal" may suggest there is something, a secret, that Ned cannot tell her. I don't know if it's relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.

[Ellfoy]

Great catch Julia.H ! Is it the only ones time that there is the expression "mute appeal" in the books ?

[igrewupinKL]

Another Stark with this "mute appeal". They are talking about Jon, and the "mute appeal" may suggest there is something, a secret, that Ned cannot tell her. I don't know if it's relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.

WOW Julia, really great find, which book is that from, aGOT? Mute appeal may refer to the Northern way of ruling. Quite stern, law abiding, traditional, don't take sides...

[Julia H.]

The book is AGoT, and it is Catelyn's second chapter. They are discussing what to do with Jon when Ned goes to King's Landing. Yes, I can imagine that "mute appeal" is a Stark thing. I don't know if the phrase occurs elsewhere in the series, I caught this one by chance.

[Kyoshi]

@ Kyoshi, Harwin still lives, he is not in the Feast but he is on Bran's list of assumed dead.

I don't think Harwin was with the party that went to execute the deserter though. I think he was at the feast thrown to honour King Robert but I don't think he was with the party that found the direwolves.

Another Stark with this "mute appeal". They are talking about Jon, and the "mute appeal" may suggest there is something, a secret, that Ned cannot tell her. I don't know if it's relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.

That's a very good catch, Julia H.! I know it's definitely not in Dance, I just did a quick search. It only appears once in Game. Catelyn also thinks about Ned returning Arthur Dayne's sword to Starfall in that chapter.

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

I don't think Harwin was with the party that went to execute the deserter though. I think he was at the feast thrown to honour King Robert but I don't think he was with the party that found the direwolves.

That's a very good catch, Julia H.! I know it's definitely not in Dance, I just did a quick search. It only appears once in Game. Catelyn also thinks about Ned returning Arthur Dayne's sword to Starfall in that chapter.

Harwin was there.

“Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lord he would someday be. “We will keep these pups.”

“You cannot do that, boy,” said Harwin, who was Hullen’s son."

Bran Chapter 1 AGOT

I didn't mean to just jump in like that but I just started a reread on iBooks and it fresh on my mind. Hope it helps. This is a great thread!!!

[Kyoshi]

Harwin was there.

“Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lord he would someday be. “We will keep these pups.”

“You cannot do that, boy,” said Harwin, who was Hullen’s son."

Bran Chapter 1 AGOT

Thanks. I just remember the Hullen part. Thanks again.

[Ellfoy]

After a research it seems that the expression "mute appeal" was employed a third time by GRRM... at the Red Wedding:

"Mother", he said, "Grey Wind..."

"Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here."

Lord Walder snorted. "And why would I let him do that ?"

She pressed the blade deeper into Jinglebell's throat. The lackwit rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal. A foul stench assailed her nose, but she paid it no more mind than she did the sullen ceaseless pounding of that drum, boom doom boom doom boom doom.

So, hey, Dany's vision is sure about the Red Wedding.

Edit : Jinglebell real name is Aegon. Any suggestions ?

[Winter'sFallen]

WOW Julia, really great find, which book is that from, aGOT? Mute appeal may refer to the Northern way of ruling. Quite stern, law abiding, traditional, don't take sides...

Harwin was there.

“Put away your sword, Greyjoy,” Robb said. For a moment he sounded as commanding as their father, like the lord he would someday be. “We will keep these pups.”

“You cannot do that, boy,” said Harwin, who was Hullen’s son."

Bran Chapter 1 AGOT

Cat steels herself against mute appeal...& guess who one of LS' staunchest supporters in the BwB...Harwin. He begs Thoros to give her the kiss of life, which Dondarrion does, & thus LS. Harwin speaks for LS in AffC when questioning Brienne. The antipathy he seems to have for the direwolf pups & his loyalty to LS is a little strange to me, but I don't know why.

It seems like silence is power for the Starks & Jon more than the rest of the realm. Godswood, Ghost, the Crypts of WF. iirc correctly Ned has uneasy feelings simply because of the noise in KL. The North values silent restraint & honor way more than bombastic or soothing words, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Cat has to make an effort to withstand a simple look from Ned. Sometimes what is unsaid has more meaning than flowery language & persistent appeal; which opens up another angle for Dany's Wolf King watching with mute appeal.

[Winter'sFallen]

So, hey, Dany's vision is sure about the Red Wedding.

Edit : Jinglebell real name is Aegon. Any suggestions ?

The witch at high Heart said the saddest sound through all of the clangor was tiny bells (iirc). For some reason Cat killing the most insignificant person at the RW seemed really pathetic to me. & in hindsight seems to lay the foundation that defines LS & the never ending quest for vengeance. I still think Dany's dream should be associated with the RW, but it seems like we've come up with enough other reasons to believe that it has a greater purpose as well. At this moment, I think it is meant to pull Dany North to the Wall rather than to KL if she ever goes to Westeros, much like Stannis to earn the right to rule by creating unity, instead of conquering by dividing, but I might change my mind in 10 minutes.

I'm not sure how much to read into Jinglebell as Aegon, seems weird that he's not Walder the Smart, compared to much of the rest of the family. It could be a simple coincidence seeing the Freys seem to want to impress everyone by naming the kids powerfully. It could be a red herring. Or it could be a huge hint that the RW enabled/helped new Aegon & JC to land in the Stormlands unopposed...which then sets the stage for Southern regions to fragment & burn crops, etc...which is tragic on the edge of winter. (super crackpot I know, but I see all of the alliances & loyalties that have held the 1st 5 books together unraveling in a big way & this supports that idea).

[Julia H.]

After a research it seems that the expression "mute appeal" was employed a third time by GRRM... at the Red Wedding:

"Mother", he said, "Grey Wind..."

"Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here."

Lord Walder snorted. "And why would I let him do that ?"

She pressed the blade deeper into Jinglebell's throat. The lackwit rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal. A foul stench assailed her nose, but she paid it no more mind than she did the sullen ceaseless pounding of that drum, boom doom boom doom boom doom.

So, hey, Dany's vision is sure about the Red Wedding.

Edit : Jinglebell real name is Aegon. Any suggestions ?

So there is a mute appeal at the Red Wedding! Thanks for the research, Ellfoy!

Now we have a mute appeal from Ned to Catelyn with reference to Jon, in Winterfell, another one from Jinglebell to Catelyn at the Red Wedding (just before dying) and one more by the dead wolf-king towards Dany in the vision that looks like the Red Wedding (but may have a broader meaning).

The name Aegon is interesting... In each of the other two scenes there is a Targaryen connection (Jon and Dany)

Cat steels herself against mute appeal...& guess who one of LS' staunchest supporters in the BwB...Harwin. He begs Thoros to give her the kiss of life, which Dondarrion does, & thus LS. Harwin speaks for LS in AffC when questioning Brienne. The antipathy he seems to have for the direwolf pups & his loyalty to LS is a little strange to me, but I don't know why.

It seems like silence is power for the Starks & Jon more than the rest of the realm. Godswood, Ghost, the Crypts of WF. iirc correctly Ned has uneasy feelings simply because of the noise in KL. The North values silent restraint & honor way more than bombastic or soothing words, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Cat has to make an effort to withstand a simple look from Ned. Sometimes what is unsaid has more meaning than flowery language & persistent appeal; which opens up another angle for Dany's Wolf King watching with mute appeal.

I really like this.

[Budraven]

First off, i'd like to just say FANTASTIC THREAD. this stuff is incredible. great reading.

I think the wolf looking on w/ mute appeal is Jon for a few reasons. ghost doesn't make a sound, that one's basic. i think the mute appeal is showing Jon's commitment to the night's watch and the wall. he's looking at Dany (or westeros as a whole) with little interest. i think it's showing him seeing 'the queen' and not really caring because he has bigger issues to take care of: keeping the wall up, keeping the others out, negotiating peace. it's similar to his disinterest in stannis' offer of winterfell.

[Winter'sFallen]

So I found another one that may tie a lot of the loose ends up. If you have not read the books & are still on this thread I presume you don't care about spoilers, because I'm pretty sure I'm going to hit some...

from CoK Jon (p765-766)...after capturing Ygritte & hearing the story of Bael the Bard, then letting her go. He lays down to sleep on the Skirling Pass. Ghost refuses to go to him when called...

"When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others..." He calls to the others & hears only the "sigh of blowing snow."

"Jon? The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only... A weirwood." He then describes the weirwood growing before his eyes.

"Wary , he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?"...

..."He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and he bared his fangs.

"Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him." Jon then sees through Ghost's eyes & observes the wildling camp for the 1st time.

Ok, so now we have what appears to be Bran actually talking to Jon, through Ghost & a weirwood, while in the crypts of WF & presumed dead to everyone. But Ghost knows only one of his siblings is gone, not just out of reach, Lady. We have the silence is strength theme again. We get a glimpse of time irrelevance as the tree grows from a sapling to big & having a face. So then the question is...is this a true time thing where Bran is actually in the crypts, or is he trying to open Jon's eye from the future, while in the weirwood net with BR? & if that is the case, why does Bran not try harder to open Jon's eye when he's on the Wall, surrounded by "daggers in the dark"? Or has Jon just shut out magic altogether? Which would touch on Budraven's post of Jon not caring about what else is going on.

The weirwood seems incredibly important to the history & ongoing storyline, & I think that the fact that we are seeing saplings pop up in various places throughout Westeros could allow Bran & BR to influence lots of events. & iirc, GRRM has mentioned that this can be an incredible source for finding out things when there appears to be no POV character in the vicinity. I think that the emergence of so many new weirwoods reinforces the idea of the Old Gods making a renewed influence below the Wall. Even Cersei remarks that in one of the Septs, the Seven seemed to be seeing & judging her in a way that make me think something has changed...(of course there are a number of long threads discussing HR as the new HS which could reinforce that the Old Gods are coopting the Seven but that's a whole other discussion)

otoh, it could just be another stand alone dream to further the story...without any connection to anything.

[Ellfoy]

Hi ! Just to warn you that I brought all this awesome stuff to the R+L=J v100 thread to discuss the R+L=J. I gave you all the credits for the ties between Jon's and Theon's dreams and borrowed some of the OP (the part between Theon's and Jon's dream) to explain it and because it was easier than rewritting all the dreams.

[Ser Not Appearing]

It's Theon! He's much a Stark, but isn't, and was allowed at the feast. His crown would be iron. He looks at her with mute appeal because he doesn't crave her womanly sexiness, having no man bits and all.

Riddle solved! You're welcome.

[PrettyPig]

IMO Theon's half of the dream was a result of the dead Starks letting him know that there is no place for him in Winterfell. The dream did not necessarily have to do with near death for him. Like Sam says, the living have no place at the feast of the dead. Three books later, Theon is still one of the living. Not to say that he won't die but that his dream didn't have all that much to do with his death.

Weird literary aside here: Knowing GRRM's background, *think* I see hints of his pacifism coming through in ASOIAF. I would really love to ask him if he has taken any influence for the series from Dalton Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun, a very seminal anti-war novel from 1938 that was blacklisted in the US until well after the Vietnam war (during which GRRM was a conscientious objector).

I've said in another thread that Septon Meribald's monologue on war is very reminiscent of the novel's last chapter, and I am seeing hints of a different chapter with Theon's dream. In chapter 16 of the novel, the main character has a dream vision that he is in a train station playing cards with Christ and a bunch of other men. The men are all talking about the different ways they will die/did die during the war. They then take umbrage with Joe's presence because he is not dead, and he will not die during the war. However, when Joe explains what will happen to him during the war (he takes mortar fire and loses all his limbs, and also becomes deaf, blind, and mute for those who don't know the story), the men leave him alone and allow him to stay because ultimately, his fate is worse than death.

Theon's dream rings very similar to that, IMO - even though alive, he can participate in the feast because what waits for him is worse than being killed in the war.

Anyway, just a random connection that is literary in nature but not in a mythical or biblical way. I am convinced that GRRM has read this book. :)