A Feast for the Dead, a Snow in the Tombs, a Dream in Dust

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Jon's greatest fear is that he is not a Stark. While Theon is that he will never be one those are the dreams they were having . The image of the wolf headed king is the king in the north . At the Red Wedding when Catelyn threaten to kill Jinglebells if they didn't release Robb he rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal , Now the wolf king eyes follow Daenerys in mute appeal to win the north she must avenge the Red Wedding by killing the Freys and Boltons.

[Kyoshi]

Jon's greatest fear is that he is not a Stark. While Theon is that he will never be one those are the dreams they were having . The image of the wolf headed king is the king in the north . At the Red Wedding when Catelyn threaten to kill Jinglebells if they didn't release Robb he rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal , Now the wolf king eyes follow Daenerys in mute appeal to win the north she must avenge the Red Wedding by killing the Freys and Boltons.

Robb actually whispered Grey Wind's name in his final moments and Catelyn said "go to him". IMO he may have warged Grey Wind, once inside Grey Wind he howled in the rain, as described by the Ghost of High Heart's dream. So IMO there was no mute appeal in Robb's death. As other posters have already suggested, I think silence is more associated with Ghost.

[Kyoshi]

I think one of the meanings of Theon's dream is that the moment he took Winterfell, he doomed both the Starks and himself, and that's why he was included in the feast. The dream is perhaps the first glimpse of their future downfall. I don't think it's about him not being a Stark, but about a shared fate.

That's something to consider.

[Kyoshi]

never mind

[Ygritte]

Along those lines, weirwood seems to be prevalent in meaningful dreams, I am thinking of Jaime falling asleep on the weirwood stump.

I think Jaime may even be dreaming a connected dream. He dreams of crypts and then reflects that there's nowhere like that at the Rock.

[Kyoshi]

bump. I really want to discuss this

[igrewupinKL]

great job Kyoshi,

I always assumed that the wolf-man in Dany's vision was Robb at the red wedding. I still think it could be but i do like the idea of it being Bran or Jon.

I think Theon has that dream at the feast because of

1. how guilty he feels for killing people at winterfell. The dream shows firstly his joy/happiness then it turns to horror, which i think represents his betrayal

2. he is now the prince of winterfell, but knows he doesn't belong there. the dream may be brought on by a subconscious reason or a magical reason ('always must be a stark in winterfell')

I'm not sure what it says about where he is heading, i still think he will die. but possibly do something important before he does.

I think the difference between their dreams is that Jon would rather stay outside because he knows where his place should be but Theon assumes his place is in the great hall and that's what contributes to his downfall.

I also think somehow, this is Robb/Ned or other Stark spirits trying to communicate with the living. maybe through bloodraven/old gods? Especially for Jon.

[Kyoshi]

great job Kyoshi,

Thanks!

I think Theon has that dream at the feast because of

1. how guilty he feels for killing people at winterfell. The dream shows firstly his joy/happiness then it turns to horror, which i think represents his betrayal

2. he is now the prince of winterfell, but knows he doesn't belong there. the dream may be brought on by a subconscious reason or a magical reason ('always must be a stark in winterfell')

I'm not sure what it says about where he is heading, i still think he will die. but possibly do something important before he does.

I think the difference between their dreams is that Jon would rather stay outside because he knows where his place should be but Theon assumes his place is in the great hall and that's what contributes to his downfall.

I also think somehow, this is Robb/Ned or other Stark spirits trying to communicate with the living. maybe through bloodraven/old gods? Especially for Jon.

The bolded part always comes up when people wonder whether or not Jon would ever fully embrace his Stark blood, even going as far as changing his name from Snow to Stark, if he were ever given the opportunity. Surprisingly, I never thought of my own thread when thinking about that :lol:

With regard to the suggestion about Robb and Ned trying to communicate I completely agree with you. I've seen it suggested somewhere that Jon might find out about his mother through Ned telling him in a green dream. My theory further extends to posit that Ned is waiting for Jon in the crypts, the same way he told Bran in a green dream:

...it was something to do with Jon.

I think Ned is waiting. Jon knows it subconsciously.

Overall, I think there is a lot hidden in these dreams and the feast. I want to discuss it because I know some people are bound to come up with some really good theories.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This feast alludes death, imo. I think there is something about believing those dead gather together in a feast. Even in our world, there is thought in christian mythology that there is an eternal feast in Heaven (or something).

I wouldn't be so sure that the vision isn't the RW. Visions aren't always literal. Didn't Dany also saw a mummer's dragon? Can't remember. But, I would say that the King with the wolf's head is Jon. Jon is a dragon, a Targaryen, who is being passed as a Stark, hence, wearing a wolf's head. His whole appearance is a disguise, a "wolf skin" so to speak as his father is actually a dragon. So, combining this with my paragraph above, I suppose both Dany and Jon might meet each other in death. We know Jon is "dead" after he's been stabbed and Dany is probably going through another "mystical" trip if she's taken to Vaes Dothraki to be proclaimed the Stallion. If there is a "beyond" to go after or during "time out", then they will go and see each other for the first time. After all, the Wolf King's eyes "followed Dany with mute appeal".

I think Apple Martini also started a thread about that Feast from the vision not being the RW but i can't remember what was about.

[Kyoshi]

This feast alludes death, imo. I think there is something about believing those dead gather together in a feast. Even in our world, there is thought in christian mythology that there is an eternal feast in Heaven (or something).

I wouldn't be so sure that the vision isn't the RW. Visions aren't always literal. Didn't Dany also saw a mummer's dragon? Can't remember. But, I would say that the King with the wolf's head is Jon. Jon is a dragon, a Targaryen, who is being passed as a Stark, hence, wearing a wolf's head. His whole appearance is a disguise, a "wolf skin" so to speak as his father is actually a dragon. So, combining this with my paragraph above, I suppose both Dany and Jon might meet each other in death. We know Jon is "dead" after he's been stabbed and Dany is probably going through another "mystical" trip if she's taken to Vaes Dothraki to be proclaimed the Stallion. If there is a "beyond" to go after or during "time out", then they will go and see each other for the first time. After all, the Wolf King's eyes "followed Dany with mute appeal".

I think Apple Martini also started a thread about that Feast from the vision not being the RW but i can't remember what was about.

There's a lot of Christian and Norse Mythology hidden here, I only know the basic things. I'm not so well-read on either subject so I'm hoping people more knowledgeable than I find this thread and contribute their opinions.

Someone else made a point that the wolf-headed "king" in Dany's vision doesn't have his head sewn on as was done with Robb and Grey Wind's head. This guy is a man with a wolf head, that might prove highly important.

I don't disagree that Dany's vision evokes very strong Red Wedding imagery, I simply doubt that it was all about the Red Wedding. Like I've said, Robb wasn't anymore important than Stannis, Renly, Balon and Joffrey. It would make more thematic sense for her to also see the visions of the deaths of the other "kings."

[Mithras]

I hope you read Ran's post in that thread. It is discouraging.

[Kyoshi]

I hope you read Ran's post in that thread. It is discouraging.

I agree with the post to a degree. I agree that referencing foreign material either to assign our desires to certain characters or confirm these desires we already hold, can be unwise and presumptuous. However, when a certain theme, a certain specific image, presents itself in several manners, it starts to look deliberate on the author's part.

Again, I am not arguing that the vision in the HOTU has absolutely nothing to do with RW. Sure, that was a pretty big thing. People might have the ammunition in their hands but just aren't using it. One way to dispute my non-RW HOTU vision is to state that it does make sense for the vision to be that of the wedding since one of the most sacred codes of etiquette was violated that day: that of guest right. This makes Robb's death that much more special than that of the other kings.

By that logic, it would follow that the kinslaying (direct or otherwise) of Stannis/Renly and Euron/Balon is insignificant compared to guest right violation. Additionally, Joffrey's death is ruled out as guest right violation. Guest right I believe, is something GRRM borrowed from the Bible (I'm happy to be corrected on this if I am mistaken). But even this is not sufficient as an explanation to me. It is said often in the books that "no man is so accursed as the kinslayer." So even this argument might fall apart. And however we want to look at it, Joffrey's death was a form of guest right violation.

I am not under any illusions about the crackpottery of my theory, it's very out there, I admit it. But the given interpretation does not make sense. If anyone can explain to me why Robb is so important to Dany then I might actually rest my case.

[Mithras]

I am not under any illusions about the crackpottery of my theory, it's very out there, I admit it. But the given interpretation does not make sense. If anyone can explain to me why Robb is so important to Dany then I might actually rest my case.

I think to persuade the Vale Lords and the Riverlords to join her, she will promise justice for the RW and that will include making a new Harrenhal from the Twins.

In addition to that, the Red Wedding is one of the key events in concluding the first phase of the giant story (AGoT, ACoK, ASoS arcs). George wanted to foreshadow RW several times including an out-of-context one from Patchface. So, the Red Wedding itself has an importance and there may not necessarily be something related to Dany in the HotU vision of the RW.

[Kyoshi]

I think to persuade the Vale Lords and the Riverlords to join her, she will promise justice for the RW and that will include making a new Harrenhal from the Twins.

In addition to that, the Red Wedding is one of the key events in concluding the first phase of the giant story (AGoT, ACoK, ASoS arcs). George wanted to foreshadow RW several times including an out-of-context one from Patchface. So, the Red Wedding itself has an importance and there may not necessarily be something related to Dany in the HotU vision of the RW.

That's a good argument. I'd never looked at it from that angle.

Now I'm left with the two dreams. Like I said, I'm not fully equipped to interpret them as accurately as might b needed for them to actually mean anything. You are one of the big supporters of foreshadwoing, do you see anything in these dreams that brings about interesting views on the fates of the concerned characters?

[Mithras]

That's a good argument. I'd never looked at it from that angle.

Now I'm left with the two dreams. Like I said, I'm not fully equipped to interpret them as accurately as might b needed for them to actually mean anything. You are one of the big supporters of foreshadwoing, do you see anything in these dreams that brings about interesting views on the fates of the concerned characters?

For Jon it is simple. He is never able to complete that dream because he always wakes up from terror. I think he will be in a coma after the stabbing so he will not be able to wake up. That means he will complete the dream. In the crypts, I think he will meet Lyanna and talk with Ned about his parentage.

There is another dream of Jon which is often missed.

Sleep came at last, and with it nightmares. He dreamed of burning castles and dead men rising unquiet from their graves. It was still dark when Qhorin woke him.

At that time, Winterfell was being sacked. I think this dream refers to that event and it means that the old Stark ghosts are awakening from their rest.

About Theon's dream;

I think he has a redemption arc to pay for his sins and after he completes that, his soul will be allowed to enter the Great Hall of the dead Starks. He will reject his Greyjoy heritage and fully embrace Ned as his true father.

[igrewupinKL]

It would make more sense for the wolf head to be Jon if he is indeed a targaryen. Maybe the 'mute appeal' part refers to Jon's non-desire to be king. And the dead bodies represent everything lost to the North after the Wot5K.

^ i also think Jon will complete that dream in TWOW after his stabbing.

[Kyoshi]

For Jon it is simple. He is never able to complete that dream because he always wakes up from terror. I think he will be in a coma after the stabbing so he will not be able to wake up. That means he will complete the dream. In the crypts, I think he will meet Lyanna and talk with Ned about his parentage.

There is another dream of Jon which is often missed.

At that time, Winterfell was being sacked. I think this dream refers to that event and it means that the old Stark ghosts are awakening from their rest.

[...]^ i also think Jon will complete that dream in TWOW after his stabbing.

That's what I meant in an earlier post when I said Jon will learn his parentage in the crypts, it seems obvious that he should finally complete that dream.

The second dream you mention, Paper Waver, is one I also overlooked. This is exactly why I need people to find this thread, new people bring new ideas.

About Theon's dream;

I think he has a redemption arc to pay for his sins and after he completes that, his soul will be allowed to enter the Great Hall of the dead Starks. He will reject his Greyjoy heritage and fully embrace Ned as his true father.

Over my time on the forum I've come to be one of those who subscribe to the theory that Theon will be the blood sacrifice needed to resurrect Jon. This, based on Bran's first chapter in GoT and Theon's sample chapter in WoW. It seems far-fetched sometimes but it's one of those things that once you read them it's hard to shake them

Everyone seems to agree that Theon is headed on a redemption path...but what? Although I don't subscribe to blood sacrifices in any kind of life, real or fictional, for any reason, it seems that in the context of the book it makes sense for the blood sacrifice to be the perfect end to Theon's redemption arc. Of course the question of "what makes Jon more special than Theon to the point of Theon having to die for him?" is born from this but that's a whole other debate.

It would make more sense for the wolf head to be Jon if he is indeed a targaryen. Maybe the 'mute appeal' part refers to Jon's non-desire to be king. And the dead bodies represent everything lost to the North after the Wot5K.

That's something to consider.

[Mithras]

Over my time on the forum I've come to be one of those who subscribe to the theory that Theon will be the blood sacrifice needed to resurrect Jon. This, based on Bran's first chapter in GoT and Theon's sample chapter in WoW. It seems far-fetched sometimes but it's one of those things that once you read them it's hard to shake them

Everyone seems to agree that Theon is headed on a redemption path...but what? Although I don't subscribe to blood sacrifices in any kind of life, real or fictional, for any reason, it seems that in the context of the book it makes sense for the blood sacrifice to be the perfect end to Theon's redemption arc. Of course the question of "what makes Jon more special than Theon to the point of Theon having to die for him?" is born from this but that's a whole other debate.

GRRM likes to build up false impressions. Classic example is the poisoning of Arryn. Most of the people believed that it was the Lannisters.

I think Theon's death is a similar case. Even Theon himself wants to die. Therefore, I think he will survive the series.

Just read what happened to Tyland Lannister here and tell me yo do not have any hope for Theon.

As for the blood sacrifice to dump Jon's soul back into his body (similar to Bran's awakening), Asha, Ghost, even Gerrick Kingsblood are more likely candidates IMO.

BTW, here is yet another dream of Jon which is overlooked most of the time.

Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood.

Compare the meaning of drowning with Jojen's dream before Theon took Winterfell.

[Kyoshi]

GRRM likes to build up false impressions. Classic example is the poisoning of Arryn. Most of the people believed that it was the Lannisters.

I think Theon's death is a similar case. Even Theon himself wants to die. Therefore, I think he will survive the series.

Just read what happened to Tyland Lannister here and tell me yo do not have any hope for Theon.

As for the blood sacrifice to dump Jon's soul back into his body (similar to Bran's awakening), Asha, Ghost, even Gerrick Kingsblood are more likely candidates IMO.

I read the link. Maybe that's the way it will go for Theon :dunno:.

I don't agree on Asha being a viable candidate simply because there has been no link between Jon and Asha. One of the reasons I believe the Jon-Theon theory is because of the dreams I referenced in my OP. To me it makes sense that Theon should be the sacrifice because of that link. They are both at that feast, they each have a role to play, they must each play it out. Add to that the theory we both share: Ned is waiting for Jon in the crypts to inform him of his parentage. There is no point for Jon to find out if he's going to die anyway.

That means Jon lives but only death can pay for life. So who dies? The answer is pretty simple to me: the only other living person at the feast of the dead--Theon.

The business of king's blood still doesn't make sense to me. Add to that the fact that Mel is the biggest believer in its supposed power, it falls apart. Just with the mention of Mel. Also, where do we draw the line with king's blood? It's been pointed out that many people in the series have declared themselves kings. Some never even sat thrones yet they were kings. Mance Rayder comes to mind. Doesn't that then mean I can simply declare myself king and then suddenly have king's blood?

Ghost makes more sense because in a way he is Jon and Jon is Ghost.

BTW, here is yet another dream of Jon which is overlooked most of the time. [...] Compare the meaning of drowning with Jojen's dream before Theon took Winterfell.

That's rather scary. Completely missed it.

[Winter'sFallen]

What if the allusions to the Red Wedding & and as an yet fulfilled future (HUD vision)? One does not need to be wrong for the other to be true. I had never noticed the small details that are different until this thread, so I accepted at face value that Dany was shown the Red Wedding as another reason to go heal Westeros. But, if the Wolf-Head King is Jon, then he is mutely asking for help as his kingdom of lambs (the freefolk) have been abandoned, feasting on fowl which I submit are ravens. With the exception of Stannis the rest of the realm has been decidedly silent on the events of the Wall, except the Lannisters trying to expand their inept influence. Jon is almost the only one worried about the treat of the Others, & he is most certainly alone, with more lambs than swords to guard against the Others. I agree that he will finally find what he has been seeking in his dream in the crypts beneath WF while recovering from stab wounds, & when recovered will have reason to actively contact Day, but I doubt it will be in the most public way possible.