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A Feast for the Dead, a Snow in the Tombs, a Dream in Dust


Kyoshi

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After a research it seems that the expression "mute appeal" was employed a third time by GRRM... at the Red Wedding:

"Mother", he said, "Grey Wind..."

"Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here."

Lord Walder snorted. "And why would I let him do that ?"

She pressed the blade deeper into Jinglebell's throat. The lackwit rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal. A foul stench assailed her nose, but she paid it no more mind than she did the sullen ceaseless pounding of that drum, boom doom boom doom boom doom.

So, hey, Dany's vision is sure about the Red Wedding.

Edit : Jinglebell real name is Aegon. Any suggestions ?

This is a beautiful discovery! Thanks for bringing it here. I hope to read all the posts I haven't read yet and hopefully we can all crackpot something that is both crazy and awesome. Thanks for taking it to the R+L=J thread. The brilliant minds in that thread will likely posit something that can benefit this thread.

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Cat steels herself against mute appeal...& guess who one of LS' staunchest supporters in the BwB...Harwin. He begs Thoros to give her the kiss of life, which Dondarrion does, & thus LS. Harwin speaks for LS in AffC when questioning Brienne. The antipathy he seems to have for the direwolf pups & his loyalty to LS is a little strange to me, but I don't know why.



It seems like silence is power for the Starks & Jon more than the rest of the realm. Godswood, Ghost, the Crypts of WF. iirc correctly Ned has uneasy feelings simply because of the noise in KL. The North values silent restraint & honor way more than bombastic or soothing words, so it shouldn't be a surprise that Cat has to make an effort to withstand a simple look from Ned. Sometimes what is unsaid has more meaning than flowery language & persistent appeal; which opens up another angle for Dany's Wolf King watching with mute appeal.





Like Julia H., I also like this. I tried linking Harwin's apparent antipathy to the direwolves with horse mythology since he worked in the stables but I couldn't find anything. It also seemed a bit far-fetched but hey, you never know.






[snip]





Here is the quote from the Ghost of High Heart prophecy:


I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow”



I also find it interesting that the Ghost of High Heart says the saddest sound was that of the little bells. Making it more interesting is the name Aegon. There is another Frey named Rhaegar (I think he ended up as a Frey pie). I think there's definitely something here. But what?



I think you're on to something: all these events have an effect on the future. It seems to me that the future (possibly Young Griff's quest, Dany's return and the fight against the Others) are very sensitive to the initial/prior conditions of the "experiment". It's like a chaos theory--too many people are stepping on too many butterflies. Of course some people are stepping on the "more important" butterflies.








So there is a mute appeal at the Red Wedding! Thanks for the research, Ellfoy!



Now we have a mute appeal from Ned to Catelyn with reference to Jon, in Winterfell, another one from Jinglebell to Catelyn at the Red Wedding (just before dying) and one more by the dead wolf-king towards Dany in the vision that looks like the Red Wedding (but may have a broader meaning).



The name Aegon is interesting... In each of the other two scenes there is a Targaryen connection (Jon and Dany) [...]





Catelyn witnesses it twice (in real-time) while Dany witnesses it once (in a vision). I wonder if this is also significant.






First off, i'd like to just say FANTASTIC THREAD. this stuff is incredible. great reading.



I think the wolf looking on w/ mute appeal is Jon for a few reasons. ghost doesn't make a sound, that one's basic. i think the mute appeal is showing Jon's commitment to the night's watch and the wall. he's looking at Dany (or westeros as a whole) with little interest. i think it's showing him seeing 'the queen' and not really caring because he has bigger issues to take care of: keeping the wall up, keeping the others out, negotiating peace. it's similar to his disinterest in stannis' offer of winterfell.





I also think that while the mute appeal is definitely connected to the Red Wedding (big thanks to Elfoy for finding the connection) it is also connected to Jon. That's why I included the quote from the chapter in which the wolves were found. Jon hears Ghost--the character most associated with silence in the entire series, IIRC. It's been posited in the Wow, I Never Noticed That thread that Jon is perhaps the first Stark child to have a telepathic/warg connection with his direwolf since he clearly hears Ghost while no one else does.



In the chapter where Tyrion comes to Winterfell to give Robb the designs of Bran's special saddle, Rickon shows signs of warging Shaggy. [sorry I don't have the quote; I can't access my books at the moment but I'll quote it as soon as I can]. I think this may be significant in the future. As I said in the previous page, Ghost and Shaggy seem to be opposites, they're the only "unique" direwolves and they seem to have formed the earliest telepathic connections with their humans. I'm not sure how it's all connected at the moment but hopefully with more contributions (and the next book coming out soon) it will all become clear.



I'm not entirely sure that I agree that the mute appeal signifies disinterest on Jon's part. But you may be on to something. IMHO, it could signify his inability to communicate his wishes :dunno: But again, you could be on to something.






[...]"When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.


There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others..." He calls to the others & hears only the "sigh of blowing snow."



"Jon? The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only... A weirwood." He then describes the weirwood growing before his eyes.



"Wary , he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?"...



..."He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and he bared his fangs.


"Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him." Jon then sees through Ghost's eyes & observes the wildling camp for the 1st time.



Ok, so now we have what appears to be Bran actually talking to Jon, through Ghost & a weirwood, while in the crypts of WF & presumed dead to everyone. But Ghost knows only one of his siblings is gone, not just out of reach, Lady. We have the silence is strength theme again. We get a glimpse of time irrelevance as the tree grows from a sapling to big & having a face. So then the question is...is this a true time thing where Bran is actually in the crypts, or is he trying to open Jon's eye from the future, while in the weirwood net with BR? & if that is the case, why does Bran not try harder to open Jon's eye when he's on the Wall, surrounded by "daggers in the dark"? Or has Jon just shut out magic altogether? Which would touch on Budraven's post of Jon not caring about what else is going on. [...]





I think that Bran was communicating with Jon at that moment. Ghost smelling Death tells me that the crypts are involved somehow. So he is smelling the crypts in my opinion. As to the second line I underlined I think this is connected to the dichotomy of light and darkness. It seems that Bran is telling Jon don't be afraid of the darkness. I posit that Bloodraven is involved in this dream; I will go as far as saying that he is the one who "initiated" it.



BR seems to warn Jon at several points in the books. Sometimes he just seems to give him information. In this instance I think BR was telling Jon (through Bran--a familiar person whom Jon loves and will not fear) to open his eyes and see the plight of the Wildlings because the war that matters was on its way. The Wildlings give proof of the impending danger since they have fled their homes and are endangering their young and ill. They are also embarking on a journey that may possibly see them having to compromise their principles and bend the knee simply to survive. But because at that moment the Watch was more concerned with the Wildlings being the enemy, Jon failed to open his third eye and see the dream and the message in the dream for what they truly were. Again, he fails to fully understand the message BR is trying to convey, like the time he thought the direwolf he saw in the crypts was Summer.



As to the question of why Bran/BR fail to warn Jon when he is on the wall I'll crackpot that it is because he was not truly in danger. The words "daggers in the dark" were used by Mel. You have to remember that Mel was also the one who saw BR and Bran as the servants of the Great Other--the big old baddie. But see what Bran/BR say in this dream: Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. They seem to be in direct opposition of what Mel stands for. Also, consider that Mel and her Red People are probably the polar opposite of the old gods. They literally burn weirwoods and they claim light to be the absolute good of the world; something contradicted by this dream.



I'll now return to my point about Bran and BR wanting Jon to be stabbed in the dark. I think the language is deliberate on GRRM's part when he makes Mel say daggers in the dark and he has Bran/BR say don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. Maester Aemon, one of two confirmed Targaryens in the story significantly tells Jon to kill the boy and let the man be born. If we believe R+L=J to be true, and further believe the fire and ice dichotomy to be an especially important one, it stands to reason that the physical manifestation of fire and ice i.e. Jon, should embrace both sides of the balance. This could be the key to everything--to realise they are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other; balance is needed :dunno:



I will go as far as positing that perhaps without even knowing it, Maester Aemon may have taken part in BR's grand plan. Like I said, BR seems to warn Jon and give him information at important moments. Yet he somehow fails to tell him of the daggers in the dark? It is as though BR wanted the daggers in the dark scene to play out, thus killing the boy and allowing the man to be born. This way, the fire (Aemon) and ice (old gods and BR) factions seem to be colluding to bring forth a necessary event that could possibly be essential in winning the war that matters.



Furthermore, it may be the case that the only way Jon can complete his crypt dream is if he is "one of the dead." It may be a pre-requisite. In conclusion, I think the quote you provided is linked to everything we've been discussing and I think that the stabbing was part of the plan (BR's one). :dunno: So thanks a bunch, buddy!



PS: It may be important to note that BR has Targ blood and is now an "old god." Fire and ice again.


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[sNIP]





Wow. That's a very interesting connection. I really like it. It sounds to be similar to Wilfred Owen's Strange Meeting with the difference that In Owen's poem both men are dead. One of the men has just died on the battlefield and he makes his way down to hell where he is welcomed by a man he killed the previous day. They then reflect on the pointlessness of war. Sorry to ramble but I always get excited when people make these kinds of observations.





Great OP and interesting topic.




Feeling the love.


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^Kyoshi, I like where you were going in the last part of your post above.



Is it possible that BR used to visit Master Aemon in his dreams.....


we know that Maester Aemon seemed to favour Jon immediately


we know that Maester Aemon is a legend :cool4:


we know that the current Stark children have some sort of special powers. If Bran is the only greenseer in the family then what does that make Jon, who so far is the only other Stark offspring to be communicated with by BR? Who also has prophetic dreams



I always had this strange suspicion that it was actually Jon that was supposed to take over BR's place, but after Bran's accident, it changed things. This is because both BR and Jon are


- supposedly half targ and half from the north


- both bastards


- BR had white hair and red eyes and Jon's direwolf has white fur and red eyes -> both the representation of weirwoods and thus the old gods


- BR was sent to he wall, Jon choose to go (you could say he didn't have too much of a choice in the matter due to Catelyn). Both became Lord Commander


- BR was said to possess sorcery. Jon's men see his as possessing magic being a warg


- both have been marked during their years; BR lost and eye and has a birth mark. Jon burnt his hand, injured his leg and scars on his face from Orell's eagle (kind of an ambiguous similarity)



What i'm trying to get at is, is Jon of Ice and Fire? Was he supposed to take over BR's role, assuming that BR is there to keep the powers in balance?



Yeh a bit of a ramble, just wanted to draw some similarities to BR and Jon as there are many


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^Kyoshi, I like where you were going in the last part of your post above.

Is it possible that BR used to visit Master Aemon in his dreams.....

we know that Maester Aemon seemed to favour Jon immediately

we know that Maester Aemon is a legend :cool4:

we know that the current Stark children have some sort of special powers. If Bran is the only greenseer in the family then what does that make Jon, who so far is the only other Stark offspring to be communicated with by BR? Who also has prophetic dreams

I always had this strange suspicion that it was actually Jon that was supposed to take over BR's place, but after Bran's accident, it changed things. This is because both BR and Jon are

- supposedly half targ and half from the north

- both bastards

- BR had white hair and red eyes and Jon's direwolf has white fur and red eyes -> both the representation of weirwoods and thus the old gods

- BR was sent to he wall, Jon choose to go (you could say he didn't have too much of a choice in the matter due to Catelyn). Both became Lord Commander

- BR was said to possess sorcery. Jon's men see his as possessing magic being a warg

- both have been marked during their years; BR lost and eye and has a birth mark. Jon burnt his hand, injured his leg and scars on his face from Orell's eagle (kind of an ambiguous similarity)

What i'm trying to get at is, is Jon of Ice and Fire? Was he supposed to take over BR's role, assuming that BR is there to keep the powers in balance?

Yeh a bit of a ramble, just wanted to draw some similarities to BR and Jon as there are many

Having all your observation in mind, I'd like to point out that Aemon and BR most likely know who Jon Snow really is. He is THEIR kin, plus he is half-Stark. That's a breed that Rhaegar created very deliberately. I wouldn't exclude maester Aemon's hand in it since he corresponded with Rhaegar about the prophecy and has most likely been in contact with BR via talking raven since he left the NW. Keep in mind that maester Aemon revealed himself to Jon, tried to stop him from deserting to help Robb and manipulated via Sam the whole process of electing Jon to the position of the LC. I'd say that he speeded Jon's climb up the NW ladder as much a humanly possible. In my mind it is clear that the unique mixture of Targ/Stark blood will have a pivotal role to play in the end game. I am certain both BR and Aemon have been aware of that. I do not see Jon as any type of sorcerer. He is most likely AA (since I distingush between the Last Hero, AA and TPTWP and think they are respectively Jaime, Jon, Daenarys, but that's an issue for a different thread). Jon's dream about being clad in black ice armour is imho a foreshadowing of his future role.

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I also find it interesting that the Ghost of High Heart says the saddest sound was that of the little bells. Making it more interesting is the name Aegon. There is another Frey named Rhaegar (I think he ended up as a Frey pie). I think there's definitely something here. But what?

I think you're on to something: all these events have an effect on the future. It seems to me that the future (possibly Young Griff's quest, Dany's return and the fight against the Others) are very sensitive to the initial/prior conditions of the "experiment". It's like a chaos theory--too many people are stepping on too many butterflies. Of course some people are stepping on the "more important" butterflies.

Catelyn witnesses it twice (in real-time) while Dany witnesses it once (in a vision). I wonder if this is also significant.

It's been posited in the Wow, I Never Noticed That thread that Jon is perhaps the first Stark child to have a telepathic/warg connection with his direwolf since he clearly hears Ghost while no one else does.

I'm not entirely sure that I agree that the mute appeal signifies disinterest on Jon's part. But you may be on to something. IMHO, it could signify his inability to communicate his wishes :dunno: But again, you could be on to something.

I think that Bran was communicating with Jon at that moment. Ghost smelling Death tells me that the crypts are involved somehow. So he is smelling the crypts in my opinion. As to the second line I underlined I think this is connected to the dichotomy of light and darkness. It seems that Bran is telling Jon don't be afraid of the darkness. I posit that Bloodraven is involved in this dream; I will go as far as saying that he is the one who "initiated" it.

As to the question of why Bran/BR fail to warn Jon when he is on the wall I'll crackpot that it is because he was not truly in danger. The words "daggers in the dark" were used by Mel. You have to remember that Mel was also the one who saw BR and Bran as the servants of the Great Other--the big old baddie. But see what Bran/BR say in this dream: Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. They seem to be in direct opposition of what Mel stands for. Also, consider that Mel and her Red People are probably the polar opposite of the old gods. They literally burn weirwoods and they claim light to be the absolute good of the world; something contradicted by this dream.

I'll now return to my point about Bran and BR wanting Jon to be stabbed in the dark. I think the language is deliberate on GRRM's part when he makes Mel say daggers in the dark and he has Bran/BR say don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. Maester Aemon, one of two confirmed Targaryens in the story significantly tells Jon to kill the boy and let the man be born. If we believe R+L=J to be true, and further believe the fire and ice dichotomy to be an especially important one, it stands to reason that the physical manifestation of fire and ice i.e. Jon, should embrace both sides of the balance. This could be the key to everything--to realise they are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other; balance is needed :dunno:

I will go as far as positing that perhaps without even knowing it, Maester Aemon may have taken part in BR's grand plan. Like I said, BR seems to warn Jon and give him information at important moments. Yet he somehow fails to tell him of the daggers in the dark? It is as though BR wanted the daggers in the dark scene to play out, thus killing the boy and allowing the man to be born. This way, the fire (Aemon) and ice (old gods and BR) factions seem to be colluding to bring forth a necessary event that could possibly be essential in winning the war that matters.

Furthermore, it may be the case that the only way Jon can complete his crypt dream is if he is "one of the dead." It may be a pre-requisite. In conclusion, I think the quote you provided is linked to everything we've been discussing and I think that the stabbing was part of the plan (BR's one). :dunno: So thanks a bunch, buddy!

PS: It may be important to note that BR has Targ blood and is now an "old god." Fire and ice again.

Cat...Mother of Direwolves with no control over them? Dany...Mother of Dragons with no control over them? Cat as LS is definitely the Shadow. Dany was told that in order to get into the light she must pass through the shadow. Mel has stated that there can be no shadow without light first, so I take the short meaning for Dany is that she has to go to the wall to get to KL, she has to go through the shadow cast by Ageon & griff as "the Targ" force, but I'm not sure she survives the wall. & I'm not sure the God of Light is good because I can't make myself think the Old gods are evil. I always wondered if "daggers in the dark" could just as easily have been meant for Kevin, rather than Jon. BM's tears during Jon's stabbing seem too much like a purposeful set up to me, & I don't think Mel is as gifted as she has made everyone think she is. & I'd forgotten that she is expressly looking at the eyes (Bran & BR) as enemies, but I do think that in the case of Jon she has consistently misinterpreted most of the signs pointing to him.

Ultimately, I'll go back to silence is strength for the Starks. The deepest silence is found in the darkest places. I agree that there is likely a rest of balance in the offering & I firmly believe that in the vision Dany had of Rhaegar in the HUD, he was speaking to Lyanna, not Elia, Jon has the SOIAF, & his real name is Aegon. Which leads to the below...

Having all your observation in mind, I'd like to point out that Aemon and BR most likely know who Jon Snow really is. He is THEIR kin, plus he is half-Stark. That's a breed that Rhaegar created very deliberately. I wouldn't exclude maester Aemon's hand in it since he corresponded with Rhaegar about the prophecy and has most likely been in contact with BR via talking raven since he left the NW. Keep in mind that maester Aemon revealed himself to Jon, tried to stop him from deserting to help Robb and manipulated via Sam the whole process of electing Jon to the position of the LC. I'd say that he speeded Jon's climb up the NW ladder as much a humanly possible. In my mind it is clear that the unique mixture of Targ/Stark blood will have a pivotal role to play in the end game. I am certain both BR and Aemon have been aware of that. I do not see Jon as any type of sorcerer. He is most likely AA (since I distingush between the Last Hero, AA and TPTWP and think they are respectively Jaime, Jon, Daenarys, but that's an issue for a different thread). Jon's dream about being clad in black ice armour is imho a foreshadowing of his future role.

I'm not sure I'd deliberately connected Jon to BR & MA as relatives. But there is no denying that EVERYONE held Rhaegar in way higher standing than any of his living relatives. I still think he found something during his time at Summerhall that changed him & made him aware of the gathering Winter. But that reinforces my belief that Jon, not Griff's Aegon, has the SOIAF, which then reinforces my thought that Griff's is the mummer's dragon that Dany was warned about. I think that ultimately Jon is a winter child born in the summer. The "grief at Summerhall" the witch of High Heart scolded Arya about fortold the coming winter, BR seems to be working behind the scenes with MA to put pieces in place to prepare for the coming battle, Jon on the Wall, Bran as another set of eyes that Jon will trust, because he doesn't trust anyone...much less his own "magical perception" for lack of a better term. But, he is going to have to have some ability on his own be brought low by common problems. He has been able to rise above the extraordinary, but doubts so much in the ordinary. I think that's the "kill the boy" point. He has the big picture, way better than almost anyone...(although I think Jaime may be coming to the same conclusion from a different direction)...but he is bogged in the mundane, much like a gifted high schooler caught up in social drama that will not mean anything after graduation. But, paraphrasing something LF said once, you can put all of the pieces in place & they will still manage to screw it up by acting on their own.

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Having all your observation in mind, I'd like to point out that Aemon and BR most likely know who Jon Snow really is. He is THEIR kin, plus he is half-Stark. That's a breed that Rhaegar created very deliberately. I wouldn't exclude maester Aemon's hand in it since he corresponded with Rhaegar about the prophecy and has most likely been in contact with BR via talking raven since he left the NW. Keep in mind that maester Aemon revealed himself to Jon, tried to stop him from deserting to help Robb and manipulated via Sam the whole process of electing Jon to the position of the LC. I'd say that he speeded Jon's climb up the NW ladder as much a humanly possible. In my mind it is clear that the unique mixture of Targ/Stark blood will have a pivotal role to play in the end game. I am certain both BR and Aemon have been aware of that. I do not see Jon as any type of sorcerer. He is most likely AA (since I distingush between the Last Hero, AA and TPTWP and think they are respectively Jaime, Jon, Daenarys, but that's an issue for a different thread). Jon's dream about being clad in black ice armour is imho a foreshadowing of his future role.

Ha yes that is very likely, i forgot about the ravens, seems so obvious now. But if Aemon knew who Jon really was why didn't he tell him? Had he corresponded with BR and thought the right time wasn't now and maybe he had to find out himself? Linking back to the topic, is this why Jon is having these dreams in the first place? Is BR showing him his future (Black ice armour) and past (Crypt dream) deliberately for Jon himself to put the clues together. Since Jon can't 'open his third eye' i don't think he will finish the dream until he can (most likely in a coma state like Bran)

So many questions. sigh. need TWOW

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Ha yes that is very likely, i forgot about the ravens, seems so obvious now. But if Aemon knew who Jon really was why didn't he tell him? Had he corresponded with BR and thought the right time wasn't now and maybe he had to find out himself? Linking back to the topic, is this why Jon is having these dreams in the first place? Is BR showing him his future (Black ice armour) and past (Crypt dream) deliberately for Jon himself to put the clues together. Since Jon can't 'open his third eye' i don't think he will finish the dream until he can (most likely in a coma state like Bran)

So many questions. sigh. need TWOW

Well, why didn't BR tell Bran what lies at the end of his journey, but sent Jojen and Meera to guide him? In the case of Jon, I think that many people have been involved in Jon's speedy training and climb through the ranks of the NW. I think every step he took there was orchestrated by this group that had been very aware of the role he has to play. I think Benjen Stark, Joer Mormont, Aemon, BR, Halfhand, Giantsbane and Mance all played their roles in training Jon for his final role. Why not tell him? Well, if he knew, he might have refused to play along. It's like Harry Potter. Would Harry have trusted Dumbledore so blindly had he known D wanted to sacrifice him from day one? Of course not. He would have probably run to Beauxbattons. Don't you find it interesting that Bowen March, another crannogman, was the one to strike Jon and orchestrate the stabbing spree? These crannogmen have been pivotal, they know what we don't and we never met HR, nor had we seen their lands properly. So, yes, sadly for many, I think our hero is set up to go to the Land of Always Winter (as the Other? with some Targ blood bonus inside? dream of the ice black armor?) and do what he has already done with Mance. Infiltrate the ranks, make them trust him and try to bring the two sides together. Rehearsal is over. It's time for the real deal.

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Well, why didn't BR tell Bran what lies at the end of his journey, but sent Jojen and Meera to guide him? In the case of Jon, I think that many people have been involved in Jon's speedy training and climb through the ranks of the NW. I think every step he took there was orchestrated by this group that had been very aware of the role he has to play. I think Benjen Stark, Joer Mormont, Aemon, BR, Halfhand, Giantsbane and Mance all played their roles in training Jon for his final role. Why not tell him? Well, if he knew, he might have refused to play along. It's like Harry Potter. Would Harry have trusted Dumbledore so blindly had he known D wanted to sacrifice him from day one? Of course not. He would have probably run to Beauxbattons. Don't you find it interesting that Bowen March, another crannogman, was the one to strike Jon and orchestrate the stabbing spree? These crannogmen have been pivotal, they know what we don't and we never met HR, nor had we seen their lands properly. So, yes, sadly for many, I think our hero is set up to go to the Land of Always Winter (as the Other? with some Targ blood bonus inside? dream of the ice black armor?) and do what he has already done with Mance. Infiltrate the ranks, make them trust him and try to bring the two sides together. Rehearsal is over. It's time for the real deal.

You make a good point. I really hope Jon doesn't become an Other. that would just break my heart :frown5:

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THis is probably some of the best work I have seen on any forum. I long suspected Daenerys was going to clash with Jon because of the mute wolf dream amongest other reasons. However your work doesn't mean they will clash- Daenerys just won't see Jon as a King like most people believe (admittedly I saw him as Kitn). Also brilliant catch with the lady stoneheart-Daenerys bit. Her being the mother of wolves and Daenerys being the mother of Dragons.... I long wondered what Lady stoneheart would bring to the table. I tried comparing her with Asha, Sansa, Arya, and even Melisandra and the shadow babies. The word Dounce hits me in the head.



Now to the dreams being linked- I wonder if that means theon as a much larger role left to play in the story. The Kraken has had the most POV's (outside of the starks) and yet they have had nothing to do with the broader conflict. Since theon was dining with the dead we have to assume he dies. The question is when will he die? I doubt Stannis will kill him. His death has to save Jon or be tied in with saving Jon and I don't think Jon is quite dead yet. I suspect theon will survive winterfell.


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Like Julia H., I also like this. I tried linking Harwin's apparent antipathy to the direwolves with horse mythology since he worked in the stables but I couldn't find anything. It also seemed a bit far-fetched but hey, you never know.
****Could be simple fear of a predator bigger than his horses/ponies. The really interesting part to me is how devoted to LS he becomes, esp when he did not start out serving her, it was happenstance, brought about by Nymeria while Arya was dreaming her wolf dreams.****

I'll now return to my point about Bran and BR wanting Jon to be stabbed in the dark. ****i think the line about "you can see them, but they can't see you" is so prophetic, calls to the power of silence for the Starks, they ability to match your strength to face each enemy, in short buys you time to create a good reaction, not just a fast one. Mel's reliance on fire & shadow does seem to be the opposite of strength in the dark, but if you have ever stared into the flames, you become completely night blind and unable to see ANYTHING that comes at you in the dark.****

Furthermore, it may be the case that the only way Jon can complete his crypt dream is if he is "one of the dead." It may be a pre-requisite. In conclusion, I think the quote you provided is linked to everything we've been discussing and I think that the stabbing was part of the plan (BR's one). :dunno: So thanks a bunch, buddy!
****i have a thought on this at the end of this post*****

I think every step he took there was orchestrated by this group that had been very aware of the role he has to play. I think Benjen Stark, Joer Mormont, Aemon, BR, Halfhand, Giantsbane and Mance all played their roles in training Jon for his final role.
**** Benjen tried to talk Jon out of the Nw then disappeared before he could help train Jon. Mormont & Halfhand were getting ready to take Mance's army extremely short-handedly. If not for Ygritte, Jon gets killed when captured by Rattleshirt & taken to Mance... I just fail to see how anyone other than BR & Aemon could be pulling strings to facilitate a larger destiny for Jon. I like his character a lot, but he has made a lot of mistakes that someone else should have covered if they were "helping". & this many people knowing &helping a prophecy come true would only paint a bigger target on Jon's back. Like we keep pointing out, there is power in the dark.*****

Don't you find it interesting that Bowen March, another crannogman, was the one to strike Jon and orchestrate the stabbing spree? These crannogmen have been pivotal, they know what we don't and we never met HR, nor had we seen their lands properly. ***I will be truly stunned to find out that BM is more than a fussy Pomegranate who has any inkling of destiny. I think there are 3 possible reasons for him stabbing Jon. 1.Jon was part of the set up to get out of vows or the LC, 2. BM was paid off by Thorne/KL/ or less likely Mel to fulfill the visions she's seen about Jon. 3. BM stabbed Jon because he's a short-sighted idiot that didn't like the changes Jon has facilitated/forced on the NW.****

So, yes, sadly for many, I think our hero is set up to go to the Land of Always Winter (as the Other? with some Targ blood bonus inside? dream of the ice black armor?) and do what he has already done with Mance. Infiltrate the ranks, make them trust him and try to bring the two sides together. Rehearsal is over. It's time for the real deal. ****yes, this would make me really mad! to be set up to infiltrate the Others. I really doubt this one as GRRM has spent 5 books expanding story lines & I believe he has said the next ones will be consolidating story lines. I think that if we get a look at the LoAW it will be thru the weirnet in a Bran pov. I just can't see repeating Jon's escapades with the wildlings, but this time as an Other.

I think that ultimately a after all of our focus on dreams, that Jon will have to physically go into the crypts of WF, maybe led by Bran or BR thru the weirnet or Ghost, who definitely seems pissed about something that is or isn't happening (Jon ignoring all of the personal signs being thrown at him?). I also think that he won't be alone in the Crypts, as the story will converge with at least one eyewitness, much like the Sam/Jon povs of the same conversation in AFfC &DwD. Jon will clues in a dream after the stabbing, but I think he has to be physically present for the big reveal.



.

****I think the bastard son of a Usurpers Dog will be beneath Dany's notice at first. Barristan may see more significance in Jon & the Wall if he survives Meerreen, but Dany is dangerously close to becoming Viserys I regards to her birthright in Westeros. I think she ends up at the Wall & initially views Jon more like Darrio than a king, or someone worthy of her time. Personally, I like Val as a match for Jon :). I also hope LS doesn't make it North, although there are theories that connect her to Jaime &Brienne heading that way. The only good I can see coming out of her meeting Jon is if someone kills her before she enacts her vengeance on him for simply not being hers & still alive. But, I guess it's possible she's witness to the GNC & would corn Jon as the KiN with Robb's crown she still carries, but I think that's way too happy ending for GRRM. Theon is doomed unless Bran or Rickon show up, then he only has a very small chance of survival, taking the Black to get out of his past crimes, working under a hopefully still LC Jon, who has become King at the Wall (not my term). I think Theon becomes the sacrificial lamb on the GRRM alter before he has a chance of full redemption.

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**** Benjen tried to talk Jon out of the Nw then disappeared before he could help train Jon. Mormont & Halfhand were getting ready to take Mance's army extremely short-handedly. If not for Ygritte, Jon gets killed when captured by Rattleshirt & taken to Mance... I just fail to see how anyone other than BR & Aemon could be pulling strings to facilitate a larger destiny for Jon. I like his character a lot, but he has made a lot of mistakes that someone else should have covered if they were "helping". & this many people knowing &helping a prophecy come true would only paint a bigger target on Jon's back. Like we keep pointing out, there is power in the dark.*****

- Indeed, Benjen tried to talk Jon out of joining the NW SO YOUNG, not out of joining the NW altogether. So, I do suspect that he didn't want his nephew to face what he was set up to face so early in life. That is a normal reaction of a man who loves his kin and KNOWS what lies ahead for him. Being a nephew of the first ranger and a Stark does however make things easier. Benjen disappeared, so we can only speculate what his role in Jon's training would have been. But, I'd go as far as to speculate that Benjen's role in Jon's training is just about to start.

- Mormont was grooming Jon for command. Sam was right about that. Also, Mormont gave Jon a Valyrian steel sword. Yes, Jon did kill a wight, but I do not see Ned Stark giving Ice to Howland Reed for saving his life at the ToJ. So, why did Mormont give Jon that sword if not for the role that lies way ahead. Plus, how come that a poor noble family from some God foresaken island like Mormonts have a Valyrian steel sword? Also, Mormonts are quite numerous - lady Mormont has a lot of children with an unknown husband (and we know that Tormund Giantsbane spent a winter with a she-bear, so I'd leave you to draw your conclusions yourself. No one ever wonders how come a noble woman has that many children and no known husband and no one asks any questions. Well, I do and it smells fishy.). So, can Joer Mormont just give away his family sword with all these relatives living? I haven't seen anything similar. Yes, Jaime gave a sword to Brienne, but it is Ice reforged, not Lannister heirloom. So, I suspect Longclaw does not belong to the Mormont family at all and it is not named Longclaw at all.

- Halfhand never even met Jon before he took him ranging. Mormont assigned Jon to the stewards and suddenly he just changes his mind and gives a green light for Jon to go ranging with Halfhand. Please?! Halfhand then goes on and gives his LIFE so that Jon would reach Mance safely. Does that even make sense? Yes, if you think that each of these men has a role to play in preparing Jon for his final destiny. No, if you think that Halfhand should trust a boy he never met before to honor everything he assigned to him.

- Mance, that fearsome king beyond the wall greets Jon like kin. He knows his name!!! and tells him how he met him twice before (that IS a story for a different thread). Goes on to tell him how he turned cloak. This meeting lasts 6 pages!!! No other meeting in ASOIAF is described in such detail. So, Mance pours his heart to Jon just like that?! I wouldn't say so.

- Giantsbane wants Mance to explain every title he's got. To an unknown boy deserter from the NW. Is that how fierce wildlings greet suspicious deserters from the NW? Does that even make sense? It does if Giantsbane and Mance want to convey certain information to Jon that he may process much later (along with the readers). So, Jon is all cosy with the wildlings in 0 time and keeps company with the two most powerful men in their camp who greet him with open arms. Why? Then Mance sends him over the Wall. And admirable task and an excellent test, but not in loyalty towards the wildlings.

I am writing very short notes here, because I don't want to bore posters. I can expand on each of these issue if need be, but I think that each reader should re-examine what really goes on on and beyond the Wall and the logic of actions taken.

***I will be truly stunned to find out that BM is more than a fussy Pomegranate who has any inkling of destiny. I think there are 3 possible reasons for him stabbing Jon. 1.Jon was part of the set up to get out of vows or the LC, 2. BM was paid off by Thorne/KL/ or less likely Mel to fulfill the visions she's seen about Jon. 3. BM stabbed Jon because he's a short-sighted idiot that didn't like the changes Jon has facilitated/forced on the NW.****

When stabbed, Jon was about to LEAVE the NW, desert and go to Winterfell. And the conspirators kill him to get rid of him? At the very moment when they were about to get rid of him anyway? Think about that. It seemed to me that they rushed into this phase of the plan, because he was about to leave. And do not underestimate the origin of a single men of the NW. Rather, it would be useful to thoroughly examine it, because it changes the way you will see actions of these characters. Thorne, for example, was a Targ loyalist who was sent to the Wall after the sack of KL. Is it any surprise that he despises a bastard of Ned Stark, best friend of the usurper? Not at all if you look at Thorne's history. And he is not being a prick. That is a normal reaction of a Targ loyalist, isn't it? GRRM puts these little clues for a reason.

****yes, this would make me really mad! to be set up to infiltrate the Others. I really doubt this one as GRRM has spent 5 books expanding story lines & I believe he has said the next ones will be consolidating story lines. I think that if we get a look at the LoAW it will be thru the weirnet in a Bran pov. I just can't see repeating Jon's escapades with the wildlings, but this time as an Other.

In order to become a hero one has to go through extreme challenges and adversities. Jon didn't go through anything extreme before the stabbing. So, if he is the hero of ASOIAF, he has to face an enormous challenge. I do not see any other challenge bigger than the one I described. He will undoubtedly transform after the stabbing. I suspect he will look more like Ghost and like a Targaryen. I also suspect Ghost will get his voice back after the transformation. But, Jon cannot transform into just another Other. He is half-Stark, but he is also half-Targ and that the part of the equation Rhaegar, Aemon and BR had in mind. So, Jon will transform to something unique and will be able to undertand both ice and fire. Since he is already trained to infiltrate, negotiate and bring together, his task is clearly set. Going to Winterfell would not be heroic at all. Also, we have Mance in Winterfell and Stannis on his way, so that would be quite enough for that part of the plotline. I believe Jon will never set foot south of the Wall. I also believe the Pink Letter was written by Mance who effectively asks for all women and children to be evacuated from the Wall to Winterfell. He also wanted Jon in Winterfell, but Marsh's actions preempted these plans. Mance has good reasons for what he does and he has probably found something in the crypts that should be pivotal to Jon's quest. Since, Jon is not likely to return to Winterfell, I suspect Mance will send Giantsbane after Jon with whatever he found in the crypts. And talking about Giantsbane, see how he revealed that he can actually read while pretending to be illiterate in the Pink Letter chapter - he named maester's writing equipment and said "dark wings, dark words", a phrase not likely to be known by a wildling. So, I'll leave you with that to ponder on. And I'm happy to expand on each of my assumptions for they are textually based.

I think that ultimately a after all of our focus on dreams, that Jon will have to physically go into the crypts of WF, maybe led by Bran or BR thru the weirnet or Ghost, who definitely seems pissed about something that is or isn't happening (Jon ignoring all of the personal signs being thrown at him?). I also think that he won't be alone in the Crypts, as the story will converge with at least one eyewitness, much like the Sam/Jon povs of the same conversation in AFfC &DwD. Jon will clues in a dream after the stabbing, but I think he has to be physically present for the big reveal.

It is great to think something, but one has to substantiate it by text. So, I'm eagerly awaiting something meatier than you mentioning of Jon's dreams of the crypts.

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@ Modesty Lannister

I saw that you mentioned that you believe Jaime to be the last hero? Could you elaborate on that?

As for your other points, very well thought through and interesting to read.

Thank you. It means a lot. I apply a lot of mathematical knowledge into it, so I'm glad when someone finds my findings useful.

As for Jaime, I won't expand too much, because it is a wrong thread, but:

- his almost empty page in the book of KG and his belief that there is yet time to fill it, tell us he has an important role to play.

- his trip through Riverrun and his negotiating skills tell us he has grown into a knight and keeps growing.

- Brienne is his knightly inspiration. She is the knight (in terms of values, not skill) that he aspires to be, as he had aspired in his youth, before all conflicting vows and promises crushed him

- Brienne is often compared to a horse (LH travelled with a horse)

- Brienne is most likely a descendent of Dunk, while Jaime is equally most likely descendent of Egg (but that is not that important)

- Brienne and Jaime have two parts of what was once Ice

- Brienne will probably injure Jaime with Oathkeeper while dealing with LS

- Jaime will probably kill Cersei with Widowsvail, so in that case we will have a double Nissa Nissa situation and the double sword would be ready for a final action. yes, I know it is AA, but some sacrifice is needed for any magical sword to be effective. I do not think it's just AA. I believe Jaime will execute Cersei after Robert Strong loses a trial by combat from the Gravedigger. I also think this will be a mercy killing, very alike to the one Ned Stark executed in the case of Lady - same sword, same rules. Then, Jaime will have his dog for his journey.

- LH has a horse, a dog, a sword and half a dozen companions: Brienne, the Hound, Podrick, Payne and probably two members of former BwB, I'm tipping on Gendry and Thoros.

So, that's it in a nutshell, plus I'd go on an deconstruct two dreams Jaime had, but that would lead us far off this thread.

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So what will be Jaime's dog, once again? Cersei???



And does Brienne represent the LH's horse or one of the companions? (By the way, in my book, it is a dozen companions in Old Nan's tale told to Bran, not half a dozen.) Jaime does have a real horse though (if not a real dog).


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So what will be Jaime's dog, once again? Cersei???

And does Brienne represent the LH's horse or one of the companions? (By the way, in my book, it is a dozen companions in Old Nan's tale told to Bran, not half a dozen.) Jaime does have a real horse though (if not a real dog).

Of course he does have a real horse, but everybody else does as well, so one has to think about little things. If he has a Hound, he will also have his lady that some people did compare to a horse. As for a dozen, I am sure BwB will manage to fill that number. No need to be that sarcastic. I am able to understand you even without sarcasm, trust me. Feel free to disagree, but your first sentence is totally unnecessary imho.

P.S. I love Brienne and I would never compare her to a horse. And neither would Jaime.

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Thank you. It means a lot. I apply a lot of mathematical knowledge into it, so I'm glad when someone finds my findings useful.

As for Jaime, I won't expand too much, because it is a wrong thread, but:

- his almost empty page in the book of KG and his belief that there is yet time to fill it, tell us he has an important role to play.

- his trip through Riverrun and his negotiating skills tell us he has grown into a knight and keeps growing.

- Brienne is his knightly inspiration. She is the knight (in terms of values, not skill) that he aspires to be, as he had aspired in his youth, before all conflicting vows and promises crushed him

- Brienne is often compared to a horse (LH travelled with a horse)

- Brienne is most likely a descendent of Dunk, while Jaime is equally most likely descendent of Egg (but that is not that important)

- Brienne and Jaime have two parts of what was once Ice

- Brienne will probably injure Jaime with Oathkeeper while dealing with LS

- Jaime will probably kill Cersei with Widowsvail, so in that case we will have a double Nissa Nissa situation and the double sword would be ready for a final action. yes, I know it is AA, but some sacrifice is needed for any magical sword to be effective. I do not think it's just AA. I believe Jaime will execute Cersei after Robert Strong loses a trial by combat from the Gravedigger. I also think this will be a mercy killing, very alike to the one Ned Stark executed in the case of Lady - same sword, same rules. Then, Jaime will have his dog for his journey.

- LH has a horse, a dog, a sword and half a dozen companions: Brienne, the Hound, Podrick, Payne and probably two members of former BwB, I'm tipping on Gendry and Thoros.

So, that's it in a nutshell, plus I'd go on an deconstruct two dreams Jaime had, but that would lead us far off this thread.

Interesting, I can definitely see these events happening, though I don't know if that means that Jaime is the last hero.

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Interesting, I can definitely see these events happening, though I don't know if that means that Jaime is the last hero.

Absolutely. Nothing is certain at this stage (or even until the very end), but I do believe from the books that Jaime will have one of the most pivotal roles in the saga. In my book, the best possible turn of events is for Jaime to be led by Bran. That would be the ultimate redemption on one and forgiveness on the other side. Also, after whatever stupidity happens with (imho redundant) LS, Brienne and Jaime should head for KL once again where a trial by combat is to take place. After the events I think may happen, it will be interesting to see Jaime's reaction to Aegon. Also, it will be interesting to see if Jaime would take anyone of KG to his journey or leave them altogether. Jaime's cave dream is very interesting, because we see him and Brienne working almost like one person. Also, I wouldn't read his dream as a guilt trip, because if it was that, where was Aerys? Where was Joffrey, his son that he failed to protect? Where is Bran? He sees Rhaegar and other members of the KG along with Ned Stark calling him on a quest. And that dream also symbolises his final detachment from his own family - Cersei and Tywin who are leaving him alone (or he is leaving them behind).

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