Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Kyoshi

A Feast for the Dead, a Snow in the Tombs, a Dream in Dust

Recommended Posts

I’ve searched extensively on the forum and I was unsuccessful in finding a thread on this topic. That may have been a result of the key words I used so I apologise if this has already been discussed. This post is basically aimed at showing that there has been a case of shared dreaming in ASOIAF. Here goes…



EDIT: Please note that the theory has now been expanded to include Jaime in the shared dream (see Julia H.'s post, #51 on page 3).



Theon’s Dream


In ACoK Theon has a dream where he is sitting in the Great Hall of Winterfell, surrounded by dead Starks and their servants. The door swings open and a bloody Robb walks into the hall:



That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time... until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.



King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.



But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures halfseen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.



Theon woke with a scream startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room - (Martin, 1998).



I believe Theon’s dream is only one half of a complete dream, there is a second side.



Jon’s Dreams


In ASoS Jon has a dream where he is in the crypts of Winterfell. He knows there is a feast upstairs, in the Great Hall. In the dream he thinks the feast is only for Starks and because he is not a Stark but instead a Snow, he is not welcome at the feast:



He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. “Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.” Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark... – (Martin, 2000).



In ASoS we have the following interaction between Jon and Sam:



“I don’t even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes, I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they’re at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.”



The living have no place at the feast of the dead, [thought Sam]. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran’s not dead, Jon, he wanted to say – (Martin. 2000).



At this point I propose that Jon and Theon had the same dream but experienced it from different vantage points: one is at the feast while the other is in the crypts. While one might argue that Jon and Theon are not having the same dream because Bran and Rickon, who are both alive, are also present at the feast, it is worth noting that Jon only thinks they are at the feast. Unlike Ghost, Jon cannot tell when his brothers are dead. This is demonstrated by a wolf dream he has in ADwD. After waking from said dream he thinks:



Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he’d believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy… - (Martin, 2011).



Much like Jon thinks he is not welcome at the feast as a result of his bastardy he makes the mistake of grouping the living Bran and Rickon with the convincingly dead Ned and the presumed dead Benjen. Without even knowing it, Jon declares the feast in the Great Hall a feast for the dead.



After giving up on the idea of the dead saving him he calls for Ygritte, a living person. Instead he finds a grey and ghastly direwolf that’s spotted with blood with his eyes shining, much like the grey direwolf seen by Theon at the feast: bleeding from a hundred savage wounds with his eyes burning.



House of the Undying vs. the Ghost of High Heart


In ACoK Daenerys sees this vision in the House of the Undying:



Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, a sprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal – (Martin, 1998).



I think it’s generally agreed that this is a vision of the Red Wedding. If that is the case then I ask the following: why is it so different from the dream the Ghost of High Heart tells Beric Dondarrion, Lem, and Thoros of Myr in ASoS:



I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow” – (Martin, 2000).



The thing to note is that one of the most prominent things about the Red Wedding was the music, the horrible music that was a clangour, drums and pipes and screams; the ghost of High Heart says she thought her head would burst. Catelyn and Arya’s POVs both reflected on the horrid nature of the music with excessive detail.



I don’t think that Dany was shown the Red Wedding. Here is the main reason: the wolf king in Dany’s vision whose eyes followed her with mute appeal is wearing an iron crown, not bronze. IIRC, Robb’s crown was made of bronze. Again, my conclusion from these observations is that unlike the Ghost of High Heart, Dany did not see the Red Wedding, she saw something else.



I also think the reason the king in her vision had a wolf head was so we could automatically link him to the Starks. Bran is often referred to as a boy with a wolf’s head. This, in my opinion, is just a clue to link Dany’s vision to the Great Hall of Winterfell, not the wedding feast at the Twins.



Moreover, the other visions in tHotU had something to do with Dany, as I believe has been theorised several times on this forum; from the house with the red door to a prince who dies with a woman’s name on his lips. The Red Wedding and Robb’s death, as far as I know, have nothing to do with Dany. The only way Robb’s death becomes significant is if she sees all the deaths of the five kings. Why just the Red Wedding and not the Purple one, why not Balon’s fall from the bridge, why not a shadow slaying Renly?



Crackpot Time


My theory is that Theon, Jon and Daenerys each foresaw an event that still hasn't happened, the same event, from different views, each with an important piece to the puzzle, each of them with a role they must play (possibly).



I know this may have crossed the line between crackpot and plain madness but I think there’s something here.



EDIT: Observations Made by Other Posters


Here is what I found in

Apple Martini's topic, titled HotU Showed the Red Wedding...or Did It? The observation was made by Schmendrick, not necessarily to support my theory but it all fits so well I kicked myself for having missed it.


[in ACoK] at the [harvest] feast, Bran eventually stops eating and talking and his thoughts turn morbid. He thinks sadly of his family – his father and mother, brothers and sisters. He remembers the last time they were all together in the Great Hall, feasting King Robert - (Schmendrick, 2013):



And now they are all gone [thought Bran]. It was as if some cruel god had reached down with a great hand and swept them all away, the girls to captivity, Jon to the Wall, Robb and Mother to war, King Robert and Father to their graves, and perhaps Uncle Benjen as well



Even down on the benches, there were new men at the tables. Jory was dead, and Fat Tom, and Porther, Alyn, Desmond, Hullen who had been master of horse, Harwin his son … all those who had gone south with his father, even Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole. The rest had ridden to war with Robb, and might soon be dead as well for all Bran knew. He liked Hayhead and Poxy Tym and Skittrick and the other new men well enough, but he missed his old friends.



He looked up and down the benches at all the faces happy and sad, and wondered who would be missing next year and the year after. He might have cried then, but he couldn’t. He was the Stark in Winterfell, his father’s son and his brother’s heir, and almost a man grown.



At the foot of the hall, the doors opened and a gust of cold air made the torches flame brighter for an instant - (Martin, 1998).



Surely the parallels between Theon’s dream and Bran’s POV are more than just coincidence. Another thing to think about is that Bran, referred to as a boy with a wolf's head, is presiding over a feast, just as a man with his head replaced by that of a wolf is doing in Dany's vision. Robb was not presiding over the Red Wedding.



As Schmendrick further pointed out, Bran is sitting in the place of Robb in the seat formerly known as that of kings in the North; so Bran is only like a king. Robb's crown was made of bronze and iron but because Bran is not the king his crown only has parts of Robb's crown. This may explain why the "king" in Dany's vision is only wearing an iron crown without the bronze.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robb's crown is made of Bronze and Iron.




I think there's more reason to stand by conventional readings of these dreams, but this is still some impressive work. Good read. :cheers:



It has often been noted that Robb was not the one eating a leg of lamb during the Red Wedding. There was a crackpot theory about how he might still be alive, which was quite unlikely. Especially post-chest stabbing. Something to do with Wyman Manderly's son and Catelyn being an unreliable narrator.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I missed the Robb is alive theory. But most of the details from the RW don't match the description of the feast in Dany's vision.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good pickup. Maybe Ned's shade is trying to send a message of warning to Jon &Theon. Alwsys wondered why Theon would have a prophetic dream.

Dany could be dreaming of a future event if Jon &Theon dont understand the warning/threat to Bran? He is heir to WF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

House of the Undying vs. the Ghost of High Heart

In ACoK Daenerys sees this vision in the House of the Undying:

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, a sprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal – (Martin, 1998).

I think it’s generally agreed that this is a vision of the Red Wedding. If that is the case then I ask the following: why is it so different from the dream the Ghost of High Heart tells Beric Dondarrion, Lem, and Thoros of Myr in ASoS:

I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow” – (Martin, 2000).

The thing to note is that one of the most prominent things about the Red Wedding was the music, the horrible music that was a clangour, drums and pipes and screams; the ghost of High Heart says she thought her head would burst. Catelyn and Arya’s POVs both reflected on the horrid nature of the music with excessive detail.

I don’t think that Dany was shown the Red Wedding. Here is the main reason: the wolf king in Dany’s vision whose eyes followed her with mute appeal is wearing an iron crown, not bronze. IIRC, Robb’s crown was made of bronze. Again, my conclusion from these observations is that unlike the Ghost of High Heart, Dany did not see the Red Wedding, she saw something else.

I also think the reason the king in her vision had a wolf head was so we could automatically link him to the Starks. Bran is often referred to as a boy with a wolf’s head. This, in my opinion, is just a clue to link Dany’s vision to the Great Hall of Winterfell, not the wedding feast at the Twins.

Moreover, the other visions in tHotU had something to do with Dany, as I believe has been theorised several times on this forum; from the house with the red door to a prince who dies with a woman’s name on his lips. The Red Wedding and Robb’s death, as far as I know, have nothing to do with Dany. The only way Robb’s death becomes significant is if she sees all the deaths of the five kings. Why just the Red Wedding and not the Purple one, why not Balon’s fall from the bridge, why not a shadow slaying Renly?

Crackpot Time

My theory is that Theon, Jon and Daenerys each foresaw an even that still hasn't happened, the same event, from different views, each with an important piece to the puzzle, each of them with a role they must play (possibly).

I know this may have crossed the line between crackpot and plain madness but I think there’s something here.

Yes, Yes, Yes! I've been banging this drum for a while now anytime someone posts a thread with the assumption that Dany's vision is the Red Wedding. Great post by the way, I especially liked linking Sam's conversation to Jon with the dreams of Theon and Jon. Great stuff.

But yes, all of Dany's visions were images either past or present that concerned her and her story arc. The Red Wedding as significant an event as it was in the War of the Five Kings (and in the minds of all the readers) has nothing to do with Dany. It doesn't affect her invasion plans, and I think it's highly unlikely that she is going to set all of her goals aside to get vengeance for Robb and Carelyn Stark against the Freys and Lannisters.

The fact that the King with a Wolf's head looks to Dany with mute appeal makes me believe that the King she is looking at is Jon. The fact that the king is holding his lamb scepter makes me believe that the slain guests at the feasts are the Wildlings that Jon has allowed across the Wall. I think it's significant that Mance gave a sheepskin cloak to all the Wildlings, and even gives one to Jon to replace his black cloack (wolf in sheep's clothing). The Wildlings are also being herded through the Wall. We have the image of sheep being led to slaughter.

I think this vision is our best piece of evidence that Jon and Dany will meet at some point during the story (well this vision and her vision the blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think it might have something to do with Bran in the end. I keep thinking that Bran and BR may be winter itself. Ser Kevan's thoughts of the weather in King's Landing in a the epilogue of ADwD:



Outside the snow was swirling round the outer ward, a caged beast howling to be free.



When he gets to Maester Pycelle's chambers he sees the white raven that heralds the changing of the seasons, signalling the end of autumn and the arrival of the much anticipated winter.



It took me back to the time Jojen had a greendream of a chained winged wolf. Also, throughout the book the cold wind is described as howling.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Yes, Yes! I've been banging this drum for a while now anytime someone posts a thread with the assumption that Dany's vision is the Red Wedding. Great post by the way, I especially liked linking Sam's conversation to Jon with the dreams of Theon and Jon. Great stuff.

But yes, all of Dany's visions were images either past or present that concerned her and her story arc. The Red Wedding as significant an event as it was in the War of the Five Kings (and in the minds of all the readers) has nothing to do with Dany. It doesn't affect her invasion plans, and I think it's highly unlikely that she is going to set all of her goals aside to get vengeance for Robb and Carelyn Stark against the Freys and Lannisters.

The fact that the King with a Wolf's head looks to Dany with mute appeal makes me believe that the King she is looking at is Jon. The fact that the king is holding his lamb scepter makes me believe that the slain guests at the feasts are the Wildlings that Jon has allowed across the Wall. I think it's significant that Mance gave a sheepskin cloak to all the Wildlings, and even gives one to Jon to replace his black cloack (wolf in sheep's clothing). The Wildlings are also being herded through the Wall. We have the image of sheep being led to slaughter.

I think this vision is our best piece of evidence that Jon and Dany will meet at some point during the story (well this vision and her vision the blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice).

...now I like your theory better than the Bran and winter thing. I wasn't even thinking along the lines of Wildlings and Mance. Thanks a lot!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The number three is echoed throughout the House of the Undying Ones chapter. By my reckoning, she even turns at least 360 degrees three times while moving through the preternatural house. The first vision Daenerys sees in the House of the Undying Ones, of the beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor, is a foreshadowing for the reader of what is to come in the House of the Undying chapter and a clue as to what is really happening. The Undying are trying to trap Daenerys so that they can draw upon her power.

Blue lips speak only lies, isnt that what Xaro told you? Why do you care what the warlocks whispered? All they wanted was to suck the life from you, you know that now.

Jorah to Daenerys, Daenerys V, Clash

The Undying set before her three visions to lure her in: 1) the Red Wedding, a vision of war-torn Westeros seeking a just ruler; 2) her childhood room, the lemon tree, and Willem Darry, a vision of her peaceful early childhood (even if there is something rotten about that lemon tree in Braavos); 3) and Pyat Pree, a vision of a guide willing to show her the way.

In addition to 1) the first vision of the beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor, Daenerys glimpses two other visions that are not designed to trap her but seem more designed by The George to develop our understanding of what is going on in the story: 2) a vision of Aerys's plan to burn King's Landing; and 3) a vision of Rhaegar wrestling with the prince-that-was-promised prophecy, which itself is a mystery involving the number three.

And then Daenerys encounters the Undying directly, and the pattern of three intensifies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good work, OP. I enjoyed reading.

I've spent a lot of time covering the dreams and prophecies of this series but I had not discovered this link before, so thank you for sharing! I think what you've said about Jon and Theon's dreams makes a lot of sense. The same scene from two different perspectives. It is interesting to note that in Theon's dream, he is the only one alive, just as in Jon's dream. Could this be because they both viewed themselves as outsiders? "This is not my place."

Coincidentally, Jon's dream here is one of the biggest reasons why I believe he will learn his parentage in the crypts. The granite kings tell him he is not a Stark -- but we know that if Ned is his father, he is a Stark in all but name, and wouldn't be the first bastard Stark-Snow in the north. So why do the kings tell him he is not a Stark? I don't think it's a metaphor; I think it is very literal. Jon's father is not Ned Stark. Just a tad of my own crackpottery for the day :D

Yes, Yes, Yes! I've been banging this drum for a while now anytime someone posts a thread with the assumption that Dany's vision is the Red Wedding. Great post by the way, I especially liked linking Sam's conversation to Jon with the dreams of Theon and Jon. Great stuff.

But yes, all of Dany's visions were images either past or present that concerned her and her story arc. The Red Wedding as significant an event as it was in the War of the Five Kings (and in the minds of all the readers) has nothing to do with Dany. It doesn't affect her invasion plans, and I think it's highly unlikely that she is going to set all of her goals aside to get vengeance for Robb and Carelyn Stark against the Freys and Lannisters.

The fact that the King with a Wolf's head looks to Dany with mute appeal makes me believe that the King she is looking at is Jon. The fact that the king is holding his lamb scepter makes me believe that the slain guests at the feasts are the Wildlings that Jon has allowed across the Wall. I think it's significant that Mance gave a sheepskin cloak to all the Wildlings, and even gives one to Jon to replace his black cloack (wolf in sheep's clothing). The Wildlings are also being herded through the Wall. We have the image of sheep being led to slaughter.

I think this vision is our best piece of evidence that Jon and Dany will meet at some point during the story (well this vision and her vision the blue rose growing from a chink in a wall of ice).

I agree with OP's thoughts for the same reason -- all of Daenerys's visions are based on her own person. The devil is in the details, though. You already mentioned the material the crown is made of, but something else of note is the fact that the man with the wolf's head is mute. Daenerys does not make any mention of any kind of noise (talking, music, motion, or otherwise). Ghost is often associated with silence -- he has never made a sound. Therefore associating Jon with silence as well. I also noted, rereading this excerpt, that Daenerys never infers or interprets the man with the wolf's head to be a King - that is, she never calls him a King. She calls him a dead man, and says he is only "like a king" the way he's holding a makeshift scepter. Not sure what that could mean, but it piqued my interest all the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if both theon and jon having the dream that is happening at the same time and danny's vision is connected to those dreams ...then theon is dying at the moment jon is also dying so when he goes to the take his place at crypts he is clearly not welcome because they know he is not stark



and the king who is looking at danny could be actually jon who looks at her with a mute appeal and waiting for her to somehow reveal his identity and then this could also indicate how the visions that leads to wall and rhaegar and blue roses



so the visions danny had always been about her and jon



i like your post more and more for i always thought that it was not similar to red wedding


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...now I like your theory better than the Bran and winter thing. I wasn't even thinking along the lines of Wildlings and Mance. Thanks a lot!

If her vision is Jon, it also gives an odd symetry with the way the Purple Wedding ended. If the Wolf headed "king" in Dany's vision is Jon, and Jon is in fact Rhaegar's son, than it is her nephew looking at her in "mute appeal".

Now compare the end of Tyrion's POV of the Purple Wedding.

Ser Meryn pried the king's mouth open to jam a spoon down his throat. As he did, the boy's eyes met Tyrion's. He has Jaime's eyes. Only he had never seen Jaime look so scared. The boy's only thirteen. Joffrey was making a dry clacking noise, trying to speak. His eyes bulged white with terror, and he lifted his hand... reaching for his uncle, or pointing ... Is he begging my forgiveness, or does he think I can save him?

So at least in Tyrion's POV, his nephew, the king, is looking at him in mute appeal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The living have no place at the feast of the dead, [thought Sam].

There is a nice irony that the dead feast while the living (Jon) is stuck in the crypts. But why is Theon among the dead? Is he just an observer, or is he in some way already dead? Either marked for death, or dead in the sense that he is no longer Theon. I'm not sure that Dany's vision related to these dreams, but they are certainly similar. It's impossible to separate the Red Wedding from the recurring motif of the dead feasting, but visions and dreams do not always have a simple 1:1 reading. There can be significance beyond the obvious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd missed the end of Tyrion's POV. Nice catch.

This is what started messing with my head: I always assumed that Theon's dream was just GRRm's way of telling us that Theon is on a path to joining the dead, very soon. But now I'm not so sure. When he was rescued by the Iron Banker and brought to Stannis I started thinking he had a much bigger role to play, beyond mere torture by Ramsay and redemption. I just haven't come to a good theory of what that role might be.

With regard to Jon, I've always assumed, like most people I think, that the answer to his parentage lies in the crypts. I've even gone as far as assuming that maybe Ned or Lyanna will be the one telling him. But they're both at the feast of the dead so that's why the Dany aspect and the King's mute appeal are starting to make more and more sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd missed the end of Tyrion's POV. Nice catch.

This is what started messing with my head: I always assumed that Theon's dream was just GRRm's way of telling us that Theon is on a path to joining the dead, very soon. But now I'm not so sure. When he was rescued by the Iron Banker and brought to Stannis I started thinking he had a much bigger role to play, beyond mere torture by Ramsay and redemption. I just haven't come to a good theory of what that role might be.

With regard to Jon, I've always assumed, like most people I think, that the answer to his parentage lies in the crypts. I've even gone as far as assuming that maybe Ned or Lyanna will be the one telling him. But they're both at the feast of the dead so that's why the Dany aspect and the King's mute appeal are starting to make more and more sense to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always assumed that Theon's dream was just GRRm's way of telling us that Theon is on a path to joining the dead, very soon. But now I'm not so sure. When he was rescued by the Iron Banker and brought to Stannis I started thinking he had a much bigger role to play, beyond mere torture by Ramsay and redemption. I just haven't come to a good theory of what that role might be.

These are not mutually exclusive. Certainly other characters have plans for him, but plans don't often work out in this world. Redemption and death can go hand-in-hand, but if the dreams are related, then Theon's death/redemption would have to impact Jon's pull to the crypts in some way, and I have no idea how that would work out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry for the double post. Working from a phone.

That's the thing, I don't think TTheon's uneasiness had anything to do with the feast being for the dead. I think it had more to do with him not being a Stark, as Lady of Dragonstone has stated.

Theon and Jon each know something that the other doesn't: Jon knows that he doesn't belong at the feast because he's not a Stark but he doesn't know his living status is a factor, Theon knows it's a feast of the dead but he only suspects that he doesn't belong because he's a Greyjoy. This was just after he'd taken Winterfell. He felt uneasy because like everyone always says: there must always be a Stark at Winterfell.

IMO Theon's half of the dream was a result of the dead Starks letting him know that there is no place for him in Winterfell. The dream did not necessarily have to do with near death for him. Like Sam says, the living have no place at the feast of the dead. Three books later, Theon is still one of the living. Not to say that he won't die but that his dream didn't have all that much to do with his death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shared dream is fascinating, nicely done OP.



While I'm not sure of the significance I wonder if there are other forces at play here. For instance, we are told that the obsidian candles can allow the users to infiltrate a person's dreams. Could someone be manipulating Dany, Jon and Theon?



Along those lines, weirwood seems to be prevalent in meaningful dreams, I am thinking of Jaime falling asleep on the weirwood stump.



Dany's vision was in the HOTU where the door was half weirwood.



The Ghost of Highheart tells of her vision in a ring of weirwood stumps.



Theon has his dream in Winterfell where the heart-trees are still strong weirwoods. (I've read on this board that Ned Stark's bed was made of weirwood, but can find no textual support for this)



Jon Snow's dream seems to lack any weirwood connection, except that he is at the Wall and there is a ring of trees where he took his vows not far off.



I don't have a coherent theory for this, just observations.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one of the meanings of Theon's dream is that the moment he took Winterfell, he doomed both the Starks and himself, and that's why he was included in the feast. The dream is perhaps the first glimpse of their future downfall. I don't think it's about him not being a Stark, but about a shared fate.



Now, it' interesting that he and Jon have different versions of the same dream, as if there's some sort of connection between them. Maybe it points to Theon being sacrificed in front of a weirwood to ressurect Jon?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×