The Fate of Gerion Lannister: Corsair King

[frensj]

Another question related to this theory.

I guess you thought of the 'Tywin tries to kill him' part because he needs a reason to stay away, no?

What if he genuinely just fell in love somewhere along the way (or in Valyria for all I care).

What if his ancestor (Tommen II was it?) did just that and is now ruling a small kingdom oid in Valyria and he decided to stay, and 1 month became one year became 8 years?

I mean, there can be plenty of other reasons, I'm still sceptical about Tywin killing his own brother, or ordering his murder.

[frensj]

It is a universal truth in real life if you actually looked. St. Augustine of Hippo visited prostitutes and impregnated his boss's daughter before becoming a Manichean and later bishop. St. Moses the Black was a former highwayman and murderer who ended up sacrificing himself to protect his fellow hermits from bandits.

If you look in series, Jaime changed and so did Dany, Theon, Sansa and Jon. Characters are always changing. Gerion would have had to adapt in a tough environment. Gerion would have changed over eight years.

Augustine of Hippo: "As a youth Augustine lived a hedonistic lifestyle for a time, associating with young men who boasted of their sexual exploits with women and men. They urged the inexperienced boys, like Augustine, to seek experience or to make up stories about their experience" You mean this? I don't find what you say there about whoring and impregnating his boss's daughter befor becoming a Manichean. He was 17 when he became one anyway.

I don't really see someone that changed substantially. In puberty he had "wild sex parties" later on he settled down. We talk here about a 35 year old that became a pirate leader after having been a craven joke making non-knighted fatty for all his life.

Saint Moses: A bandit leader becomes a pacifist after 'the holy spirit' strikes him. Ok. I don't find your examples all that convincing, these are not basic character changes if you ask me. Maybe you are not a craven but trust me, that does not simply go away. In a harsh environment they are just a the bottom helping anyone with a big mouth. Anyway you are giving me some Saints from 1500 years ago, as if all stories about Saints' lifes are all that true anyway. I take them with a big grain of salt. Maybe there's a better example? Someone from 20th century? A very timid student who became a big ass performer or so? A pacifist that becomes a war hero (the other way around doesn't cut it, 'violence' is no way of life if you ask me)?

And how about Jaime, Dany, Theon, Sansa and Jon? How about Sam btw, he's the same type as Gerion would be or would come close if you ask me. Of course we don't have a lot of info so it might be he was just a 'normal' guy, but funny, and not really like his father besides the laughing.

Jaime: I have the impression that he did not change much, we just got to see his reasons for doing what he did.

Dany: the little girl grew up, besides that what do you mean?

Theon: Wants recognition from his father and fails in that, then forgets himself after being tortured? THat's a VERY special case obviously.

Sansa: She helps Petyr a bit?

Jon:I don't really see him change all that much?

I'm sorry, maybe I honestly just don't see it?

I do admit that for a story to progress it's a nice feat. But IMO not realistic.

[Fire Eater]

I don't really see someone that changed substantially. In puberty he had "wild sex parties" later on he settled down. We talk here about a 35 year old that became a pirate leader after having been a craven joke making non-knighted fatty for all his life.

He isn't described as craven. We also aren't given a physical description.

And how about Jaime, Dany, Theon, Sansa and Jon? How about Sam btw, he's the same type as Gerion would be or would come close if you ask me. Of course we don't have a lot of info so it might be he was just a 'normal' guy, but funny, and not really like his father besides the laughing.

Jaime: I have the impression that he did not change much, we just got to see his reasons for doing what he did.

Dany: the little girl grew up, besides that what do you mean?

Theon: Wants recognition from his father and fails in that, then forgets himself after being tortured? THat's a VERY special case obviously.

Sansa: She helps Petyr a bit?

Jon:I don't really see him change all that much?

Jaime: He did, as he is no longer the a-hole cynic whose basic morality is revolved around Cersei, but he has separated from her, and grown to the point where he thinks he wanted to be the next Arthur Dayne but somewhere along the way became the Smiling Knight instead. He is concerned for the well-being of a girl he believes killed his son be safe. He was the most shallow of people, and now we see him falling for Brienne.

Dany: She is no longer the easily frightened girl with the resistance beaten out of her we met in at the beginning of AGoT.

Theon: Comes to realize the Starks treated him better than his own family, and is no longer the arrogant self-entitled jerk.

Sansa: Has grown from a girl drunk on the romanticized notions of kings, knights and chivalry to a cynic on those subjects who thinks the heroes don't win, the monsters do.

Jon: He went from a boy with a large sense of entitlement who viewed the other boys with contempt to a humble man (I know nothing) who recognizes the humanity in all people and even makes a boy whore his squire.

People are always changing.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I guess it's harder to change when you're an adult, but not impossible. It is happening to Jaime and the Hound, who aren't exactly kids. Both of them have been exposed to very traumatic events (losing his hand, Blackwater) which shocked them into change their lives, the same as Theon, already 20 and pretty much a man. I wouldn't say he "changed" but he was changed after what happened to him. Connington was around the same age when he was exiled and he admitted he become less arrogant.

I wouldn't say that Dany is "changing" because she's still a child of 15. She's developing, the same as Jon, Robb, Arya and Sansa, whose personalities are still forming, so, isn't actually a "change".

[Lord Martin]

I'd be more sold if the Corsair King was described as at least Westerosi or even better as being blond.

Also, is the theory that Gerion made two trips to Essos or one? I don't really see Bravos being on the way to Valyria from Lannisport.

Also, this would suggest that Tysha is not the Sailor's Wife... not that that's a very well founded theory either, but I do prefer it.

But interesting thought.

[Fire Eater]

I'd be more sold if the Corsair King was described as at least Westerosi or even better as being blond.

Also, is the theory that Gerion made two trips to Essos or one? I don't really see Bravos being on the way to Valyria from Lannisport.

Two trips. I think from the sound of it, Gerion had sailed across the Narrow Sea before.

[Maia]

Also, is the theory that Gerion made two trips to Essos or one? I don't really see Bravos being on the way to Valyria from Lannisport..

Well, we know that Gerion toured the Free Cities when he came of age, as did Tygett. Tyrion wanted to follow their example, but Tywin forbade it and threatened to disown Tyrion if he went anyway.

So, at the very least 2 trips, possibly more.

Nor was it mentioned anywhere that Gerion was a coward. On the contrary, an expedition to Valyria could be termed foolhardy, but was certainly not something for the faint of heart.

Why wasn't he a knight? We don't know, really. I'd have thought that Tywin would have forced him to become one, as Gerion was only 10-11 when Tytos died.

But, frankly, I would hate it if he is revealed as the corsair king. We already have our share of murderous and cruel Lannisters, no reason to add a pirate and a slaver. Also, some of the presumed dead people should actually be dead, or it would just get too ridiculous.

[ForgottenKnight]

Interesting theory. I like the idea of Dany forging alliances with the families she wants to kill.

[walkingWITHcersei]

I thought it was implied that Gerion Lannister is dead. I can't remember if it's a Sam or Arya (Braavos) chapter.

The whore who marries every man she bangs has a daughter (can't remember if it's mentioned what she looks like) named Lanna. The old magical lady tells her that her sailor husband (her first husband) is dead.

Could be another Hound/Sandor situation? Gery, ur husband, is dead, but the Corsair King is alive?

[KINGpanther]

All this is leading to a very interesting naval situation with the Iron Fleet and most likly a good portion of the Volantene fleet with Dany. Add to that possibly Gerion and a Corsair fleet and holy shit. Also you have the Redwynne fleet engaging a second Ironborn fleet, White Harbour and their War Fleet, Salador Saan still out there with a pirate fleet and Aurane Waters with those massive War galleys plus the sleeping naval giant that is Braavos.

[frensj]

He isn't described as craven. We also aren't given a physical description.

Jaime: He did, as he is no longer the a-hole cynic whose basic morality is revolved around Cersei, but he has separated from her, and grown to the point where he thinks he wanted to be the next Arthur Dayne but somewhere along the way became the Smiling Knight instead. He is concerned for the well-being of a girl he believes killed his son be safe. He was the most shallow of people, and now we see him falling for Brienne.

Dany: She is no longer the easily frightened girl with the resistance beaten out of her we met in at the beginning of AGoT.

Theon: Comes to realize the Starks treated him better than his own family, and is no longer the arrogant self-entitled jerk.

Sansa: Has grown from a girl drunk on the romanticized notions of kings, knights and chivalry to a cynic on those subjects who thinks the heroes don't win, the monsters do.

Jon: He went from a boy with a large sense of entitlement who viewed the other boys with contempt to a humble man (I know nothing) who recognizes the humanity in all people and even makes a boy whore his squire.

People are always changing.

I thought it was mentioned (here or elsewhere) that he looked the most like his father, a fat craven who just laughs everything away and gives in to everyone. And that he's not a Ser at 35, while being a son of a noble house also tells a lot.

What you describe there for most of them is IMO people whose opinions change or that grow up (most of the people you mention anyway are teenagers that finally become more adult ad their mid/end 10's), not PEOPLE who change.

For Jaime, I don't think we know enough about him from beforehand to say such things. We get to see why he did certain things in the past, perfectly explainable things if you ask me. He realises that his sister is a total bitch and likes another girl...

Strange that you didn't mention the Hound actually, seems to be the best example yet to me :) But for me it's still a much bigger thing if someone passive becomes agressive than the other way (hound, your first saint).

What I mean to say is: "He became less arrogant", "He became less violent", "He finally cared for someone", "he grew up". I'm sorry but that's not at all the same as becoming an aggressive leader when the first 35 years of your life you were a very passive person. Hey I don't say it's impossible, but extremely unlikely. Traumas can still do a lot, but usually people become MORE passive/introvert after them.

oh and: GO BELGIUM! hehe :)

[frensj]

Well, we know that Gerion toured the Free Cities when he came of age, as did Tygett. Tyrion wanted to follow their example, but Tywin forbade it and threatened to disown Tyrion if he went anyway.

So, at the very least 2 trips, possibly more.

Nor was it mentioned anywhere that Gerion was a coward. On the contrary, an expedition to Valyria could be termed foolhardy, but was certainly not something for the faint of heart.

Why wasn't he a knight? We don't know, really. I'd have thought that Tywin would have forced him to become one, as Gerion was only 10-11 when Tytos died.

But, frankly, I would hate it if he is revealed as the corsair king. We already have our share of murderous and cruel Lannisters, no reason to add a pirate and a slaver. Also, some of the presumed dead people should actually be dead, or it would just get too ridiculous.

You've got a point with that. I'm of course just extrapolating that I read he looked a lot like his father. Could just be the laughing part obviously, but not being a Ser... I don't know.

I mentioned earlier that he could've stayed for love. But when I thought a bit more: no... he would still try to contact his family back home then.

[Talking Hodor]

Are the timeframes off that Gerion Lannister couldnt be The Tattered Prince?

He could be the Tattered Prince Dread-Pirate-Roberts style.

[Maia]

You've got a point with that. I'm of course just extrapolating that I read he looked a lot like his father. Could just be the laughing part obviously, but not being a Ser... I don't know.

Well, IIRC we don't know what Gerion looked like. He laughed and joked, but so does Jaime, it is not a sign of weakness. Wasn't he the one who taught Tyrion to do cartwheels and walk on his hands? If so, he had to be reasonably fit.

Anyway, Gerion sailed to Valyria and did so against Tywin's wishes, so he was hardly a coward or a pushover.

I mentioned earlier that he could've stayed for love. But when I thought a bit more: no... he would still try to contact his family back home then.

Not if he married a commoner, I imagine... But IMHO, it would be rather contrived if he turns up alive. I am a fan of House Lannister, but if some supposedly dead uncle has a chance of showing up, I am for Benjen and whatever information on the Others he may have gathered.

[Mithras]

His uncle Gerion liked to set him on the table during feasts and make him recite them.

For years afterward, he had cherished a dream that one day he would travel the world and see Longstrider’s wonders for himself.

Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son’s sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. “My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister,” his father had replied. “Neither ever wed a whore.”

Gerion toured the Nine Free Cities when he was 16 and he probably kept sailing around frequently. He was the only brother of Tywin to father a bastard. He laughed and japed his way through the long shadow of Tywin over them, while Tygett became bitter about it.

Tywin claims that Gerion could be relied upon to bring no shame to the House Lannister and he would not wed a whore. I don’t think so. He wed Sailor’s Wife at one point and fathered Lanna from her.

Perhaps Tywin learned that eventually and that was one of the reasons for him to speculate that Gerion seduced Joanna and fathered Tyrion from her. Tyrion and Gerion were very close and they shared many traits.

As a result, when Gerion decided to recover the lost ancestral blade of the House, Tywin told the crew to throw him overboard.

I believe that Gerion is the biological father of Tyrion and it will have an important effect to the story by destroying Tyrion's claim to CR. Tyrion currently has two quests that keep him in line; his claim to CR and his revenge upon Cersei and Jaime. If he loses his claim to CR (or if it is weakened by the trueborn heirs in front of him) he will be left with his revenge only. I believe this will make him bitter and his dark side will start to take control.

[Fire Eater]

I don't think Gerion is Tyrion's father. Tywin might have suspected, but I don't think anything will stop Tyrion from wanting to claim CR.

Tywin hated laughter, and likely would have been irked by Gerion. "Neither ever wed a whore" could turn out to be ironic.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I completely agree OP. Gerion is the Corsair King and he will be showing up somewhere in WoW. Personally I think he will be the one to tell Tyrion the truth of his parents.

[Fire Eater]

I completely agree OP. Gerion is the Corsair King and he will be showing up somewhere in WoW. Personally I think he will be the one to tell Tyrion the truth of his parents.

I think Tyrion already has the truth of his parents, they are Tywin and Joanna Lannister. I think Gerion may mention some bits about Tywin.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Most interesting nautical mysteries of ASOIAF:

1. What's between Assai & The Lonely Light? Take Lord Farwynd's suggestion and sail into the sunset sea somebody. Planetos is round.

2. Kraken sightings off the fingers? Kraken binding horn on Claw Island? Make it so.

3. Gerion Lannister thinking he could cross 1/2 the world to find a sword that was maybe lost in a smoking ocean?

[Howlin' Howland]

The OP's theory about what happened to Gerion is better than mine and I'll look for evidence of it when WoW comes out.

My theory is that Euron captured Gerion's ship near the Smoking Sea and that he's now one of the mutes serving on the Silence.