R+L=J v.85

[Ser Leftwich]

Ok, but not actually what I am looking for. It may seem like the oddest question ever on R+L=J, but what I am asking is what do the regulars here think was the name of the KG at the Tower of Joy. I know it may seem odd and confusing because of the obvious nature of the question. It's Whent, Dayne and Hightower.

I am looking for a consensus for a purely analytical reason and when I get it I will show you why I was looking for it. I am sure you and others are reading that and going wtf that's pointless, but their is a valid point I promise. It's not a joke or a trick or a question about who Jon's parents. If I could get just a few responses, that would be great. I know it seems odd but it's an honest question.

Ned's group did total seven (7). Is that where you are going?

OK, my mind just went so crackpot, there is no pot left.

Ned was so pissed at Robert after the death of Rhaegar's children, etc. Ned actually considered backing Jon as king at some point; sometime after he left KL and when he learned about the specifics of Jon and when he promised whatever he promised to Lyanna.

Hence, Ned had 7, as an escort/guard for a king.

[Juliet Burke]

I do have one problem, after the Hot tub comment I can't get this image out of my head. Ser Creighton, George, and Parris share a Hot Tub with Alia of Knife.https://screen.yahoo.com/love-ahs-hot-tub-000000900.html

Sorry made a mistake that's Alia of the Bow, Alia of the Knife's sister, I mix them up sometimes.

Oh, I don't understand what you want to say))

[BearQueen87]

Ned's group did total seven (7). Is that where you are going?

OK, my mind just went so crackpot, there is no pot left.

Ned was so pissed at Robert after the death of Rhaegar's children, etc. Ned actually considered backing Jon as king at some point; sometime after he left KL and when he learned about the specifics of Jon and when he promised whatever he promised to Lyanna.

Hence, Ned had 7, as an escort/guard for a king.

Huh. That's really interesting. Never thought about the fact that there were 7 in Ned's group. counting Ned himself.

But I think there are some problems (I know you said it was crackpot but just going along)

If that's true--that Ned intended to bring baby Jon back as the heir to the Iron Throne--why kill the 3 KG already at the ToJ who are already willing to lay down their lives for Baby Jon. Personally, if I was planning on putting an infant as heir, I'd want the White Bull and the Sword of the Morning.

Also, when Ned rides out to the ToJ he doesn't know Lyanna's had a baby, right? This is the first he's seen his sister since she left. And he wouldn't know that Lyanna would make him promise anything. So riding out with 7, with the intention that those 7 are the guard for the new king, doesn't fit since Ned doesn't know Lyanna had a baby (or that she and Rhaegar married, as we think)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If that's true--that Ned intended to bring baby Jon back as the heir to the Iron Throne--why kill the 3 KG already at the ToJ who are already willing to lay down their lives for Baby Jon. Personally, if I was planning on putting an infant as heir, I'd want the White Bull and the Sword of the Morning.

Regency, maybe? Perhaps Rhaegar gave specific orders.

[Ser Leftwich]

Also, when Ned rides out to the ToJ he doesn't know Lyanna's had a baby, right? This is the first he's seen his sister since she left. And he wouldn't know that Lyanna would make him promise anything. So riding out with 7, with the intention that those 7 are the guard for the new king, doesn't fit since Ned doesn't know Lyanna had a baby (or that she and Rhaegar married, as we think)

Some of the biggest unanswered questions are: what did Ned know and when did he know it. How did he learn about the location of the ToJ? What did he know about his sister's condition before he arrived at the ToJ? Even, from whom did he learn these things? We know none of them and so much depends on these questions.

A lot depends on what Ned learned and when he learned it, as to the why that Ned had a total of 7 in his group.

ETA: If the analysis of the Ned/KG discussion often re-post here is correct, Ned did know. He was fishing for a reason for the KG to stand down and/or fishing to get an answer from them that did not confirm what he suspected, that Jon was legit.

In fact, for the KG, Jon may have been to legit to quit.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Some of the biggest unanswered questions are: what did Ned know and when did he know it. How did he learn about the location of the ToJ? What did he know about his sister's condition before he arrived at the ToJ? Even, from whom did he learn these things? We know none of them and so much depends on these questions.

A lot depends on what Ned learned and when he learned it, as to the why that Ned had a total of 7 in his group.

The problem I see with this theory is that the one thing that Ned would not have expected would be to walk to ToJ, the 3 KG there simply hand over Jon without a fight, and Ned could take Jon and his group of 7 back to KL. If Ned intended to back Jon (I agree with those who state that it seems implausible that Ned even knew of Jon's existence when he put together the group--but assume he did), either he would have tried to team up with Whent, Dayne and Hightower (although the ToJ conversation gives no hint that he tried to do that)--or he would expect a battle in which some are bound to die (in fact 5 of the 7 died).

So either he expected to walk away with 10 not 7 (if somehow he really did intend to band together with the 3 KG at ToJ) or he knew some of his 7 would not live and thus he would have less than 7 going to KL. I don't see a scenario where Ned would have even possibly thought that he would just walk up, take Jon, leave the 3 KG at ToJ behind, and march to KL with his group of 7. How does that scenario play out (and if it does, what is his back-up plan if Robert disagrees with giving up the throne to Jon--7 against how many)? I am having trouble seeing where this theory is really going that plays out in way that could really work.

[Ser Creighton]

I don't know about anyone else, but it is hard to respond because I really don't understand what you are asking. The best evidence I know of in terms of which KG were at ToJ is the conversation with Ned before they die, and it seems clear that at least based on Ned's memory, Whent, Dayne and Hightower were at ToJ guarding Jon. I think we also have other reports of where the other 4 KG were during that period of time, so that also lets the reader know by process of elimination which KG could have been at ToJ. I honestly cannot imagine what you are really asking, but I am curious about the ultimate point to which you are alluding. Please just pretend you got a bunch of responses agreeing to a consensus of Whent, Dayne and Hightower and let us know your real point.

Simply put what is the name of the KG at the Tower of Joy. I know it seems an odd question so I will clear up why I am asking sense apparently people only like me for my spiced meats and love making. Not all of what I am going to say is connected to the idea but they are observations on the events around the Tower of Joy and the dichotomy of series as a whole.

One observation is Varys at KL this does not tie to what I am talking about much but I am going in chronological order. Varys has a plan to put Aegon on the throne right. But at no point could this have been his original plan. Whatever his plan was that was not it.

When Rhaegar returned to the KL I am pretty sure Varys wanted to know what he had been up to and what was going on, though I doubt he would of been privy to a conversation between Rhaegar and his father. But at no point could he have passed up a chance to listen in. Anyway onto the KG.

Aerys KG appointed by Aerys. Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, Barristan Selmy, Jamie Lannister, Lewyn Martell, and Jonothor Darry. It's the all southern KG.

At the Tower of Joy Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent. Also at the Tower Lyanna Stark who is preggy or at least assumed to be, and I believe a wet nurse, maybe Wylla. I think that is the common perception on the thread right? And I don't disagree with it. But in total when Ned arrives it's 6 people there including baby Jon.

So back at KL Ned and Robert have a pretty bad fight and Ned takes off to Storms end which is at the end of the Kings road. So weather he knows or not he is still headed in the right direction.

Ned and company depart Storms End and makes for the Tower Joy. Don't really care who told him about the Tower but he and his men are headed there. But that is what is odd, weather it's foreshadowing, or symbolism, it does not matter, one thing I have noticed with Martin is that even when he does that it has to make sense. And Ned riding into Dorne with 6 men only makes sense one way that I can see.

20 can move as fast as 7 on horse and a more dominant force would ensure a more peaceful solution.

He is traveling in secret. It was a very poorly kept secret.

Ned chose only North men, even though Ned spent most of his life in the Vale. Martin creates North vs. South here.

7 is a number of the faith not the Old Gods, it's an odd number for him to pick. But it does serve two fold. 1st and foremost this is the babies KG. Whent, Dayne, Hightower, they may have though they were, but this was probably his actual KG. Or her I don't know if they knew the sex of the baby.

The perception is that the big 3 are his KG and they are the obvious KG there. But it's 7 that ride to Jon, and the last two protected him his entire life. The only way 7 makes sense is if Ned picked a KG/QG for the baby. 3

The second important use of 7 is that 7 and 6 equal 13. A rather well known number in the series.

3 kg are symbolic of house Targaryen, and of course the all North force. Does it foreshadow, does it indicate something else? I don't know, but the perception of the KG may not be exactly right, it may be Ned and Howland and the others. Am I wrong in thinking that is the only way 7 men going to the Tower makes sense. Martin is very specific there, it's an odd number to suddenly run to the rescue,

As for Varys, I can't see that Varys does not know Lyanna is pregnant, he had to be spying on Rhaegar the entire time he was back. When Ned came back he had to know the story was BS. Much later Ned asks him for a piece of paper, yet Varys can't help him. As if anyone would of known. So what was he afraid of? Varys sends secret messages for a living. Lucky for Varys Ned just happens to get killed instead of taking the black. A whisper in the ear OF Prince Cray Cray would go a long way.

Anyway it's the use of North and south, fire and ice though here they are opposed, 3 and 7, 13, polarities, obscure and obvious. All major elements of the series but I was looking at the obvious and obscure KG and why 7 made sense for Ned. Because that number has always bothered me, and I figured people must have said Ned and company are Jon's actual KG, or obscure KG at some point. I don't know I was wondering if it was sort of like and acronym for Jon's story. But figured it's been covered already, that's why I asked about the KG names. I figured someone would of asked Neds guys or Aerys guys? It's just there are some many themes and elements of the series in that one part of Jon's story. Anyway I consider Ned and Company to be Jon's actual KG. Not that the 3 were not, it's just they actually did the Job. Though Ned should probably send Jon to Howland instead of the wall next time and save everyone the trouble.

[J. Stargaryen]

snip

I think the seven Northerners as Jon's KG is foreshadowing, as opposed to an in-story decision made by Ned.

[UnmaskedLurker]

20 can move as fast as 7 on horse and a more dominant force would ensure a more peaceful solution.

I admit I tried to follow your chain of thought but lost you. I copied one of your sentence though, because I think it is central to your theory. I think I have an answer--but I doubt you will like my answer. I suspect the real answer is that it had to be a number that realistically could win against 3 of the best fighters in Westeros, but small enough so that there would be a real fight and only 2 would survive. The story simply needs Ned to win and it needs Ned and Howland to be the only survivors. For that goal, 7 is about the right number to go against the 3 KG.

I am sure that GRRM will have a different reason, such as these were the only men Ned could trust or that 7 really can move faster than 20 or any other excuse that a man with the imagination of GRRM can invent. But I suspect the real reason is that simply the story demanded a number of about 7 for the story to work. We simply don't have a story otherwise. Now the choice of 7 rather than 6 or 8 might be symbolism regarding KG, but not in Ned's mind, only in GRRM's mind.

[Melisandre's hair]

It was at a convention...she said something like "do you really think George would do something that obvious?" A lot of people read that as her shooting it down.

I can see now why they're together :drunk: trolls

[Ygritte]

I admit I tried to follow your chain of thought but lost you. I copied one of your sentence though, because I think it is central to your theory. I think I have an answer--but I doubt you will like my answer. I suspect the real answer is that it had to be a number that realistically could win against 3 of the best fighters in Westeros, but small enough so that there would be a real fight and only 2 would survive. The story simply needs Ned to win and it needs Ned and Howland to be the only survivors. For that goal, 7 is about the right number to go against the 3 KG.

I am sure that GRRM will have a different reason, such as these were the only men Ned could trust or that 7 really can move faster than 20 or any other excuse that a man with the imagination of GRRM can invent. But I suspect the real reason is that simply the story demanded a number of about 7 for the story to work. We simply don't have a story otherwise. Now the choice of 7 rather than 6 or 8 might be symbolism regarding KG, but not in Ned's mind, only in GRRM's mind.

I think you're right; he's doing the time-honored tabletop RPG thing of tailoring the fight to the party. :D

[MtnLion]

<snip>

Yes, GRRM chose seven for a reason. Perhaps that was all of the fighting men that Ned could fully trust (4) and Howland insisting on going because he owed Lyanna a debt. Ned needed his guide, the one who knew about Lyanna's condition directly from Rhaegar (in the Black Cells), as well as her location. I don't think that Varys ever gets a whiff of the truth. We would have known about it sooner, if he had.

[BearQueen87]

With KL having just been sacked, a dead king, princess, and her children, Tywin Lannister suddenly deciding that he's going to be on Team Baratheon after having sat out, and what was sure to be a free for all in Flea Bottom, maybe 6 was all Ned could reasonably take. He's angry with Robert for what happened to Elia and her children but at the same time, it's probably pandemonium in the city. Can Ned really afford to take more than 6-10 men?

I do like the idea that Howland Reed insisted on going, though.

ETA: Jorah gives a nice little synopsis of the aftermath of the Sack to Dany in ASOS

I saw King's Landing after the sack. Babes were butchered that day as well, and old men, and children at play. More women were raped than you can count

So I do like the foreshadowing that J. Stargaryen pointed out above but I also think it's a practical issue; Ned can't really take 20 or more people because of what's happening in the city.

[Ser Creighton]

Some of the biggest unanswered questions are: what did Ned know and when did he know it. How did he learn about the location of the ToJ? What did he know about his sister's condition before he arrived at the ToJ? Even, from whom did he learn these things? We know none of them and so much depends on these questions.

A lot depends on what Ned learned and when he learned it, as to the why that Ned had a total of 7 in his group.

ETA: If the analysis of the Ned/KG discussion often re-post here is correct, Ned did know. He was fishing for a reason for the KG to stand down and/or fishing to get an answer from them that did not confirm what he suspected, that Jon was legit.

In fact, for the KG, Jon may have been to legit to quit.

So it is talked about and you could not say so sooner? Next time get off work early I am impatient and the world revolves around me. By revolve around I mean finds me and lands on my head to remind me I am nothing but a peon.

I think the seven Northerners as Jon's KG is foreshadowing, as opposed to an in-story decision made by Ned.

Well it's both really, I think foreshadowing is correct. But he still had to make that call, no more no less. 7 does not foreshadow the north very well though it does the 7 and the KG. There is the common themes he uses all in use though. The end number I think is very important but that's a different idea altogether, but what has me looking at 13 more closely. Though I think you are right about foreshadowing, it's more of a symbolic KG than the actual KG.

I admit I tried to follow your chain of thought but lost you. I copied one of your sentence though, because I think it is central to your theory. I think I have an answer--but I doubt you will like my answer. I suspect the real answer is that it had to be a number that realistically could win against 3 of the best fighters in Westeros, but small enough so that there would be a real fight and only 2 would survive. The story simply needs Ned to win and it needs Ned and Howland to be the only survivors. For that goal, 7 is about the right number to go against the 3 KG.

I am sure that GRRM will have a different reason, such as these were the only men Ned could trust or that 7 really can move faster than 20 or any other excuse that a man with the imagination of GRRM can invent. But I suspect the real reason is that simply the story demanded a number of about 7 for the story to work. We simply don't have a story otherwise. Now the choice of 7 rather than 6 or 8 might be symbolism regarding KG, but not in Ned's mind, only in GRRM's mind.

That's ok, it's not a complete thought I am leaving something out until I figure it out. But you got the general idea just fine. Though the logic of Ned knowing an exact number of men that would live and he would need to defeat opponents he never faced is a stretch for me. 3 is the Targaryen number so to speak, it's heavily used with the Targaryens it's part of their symbolism. I know Ned and company did not switch to the faith, and the party is completely northern. Neds closest people probably would of been from the Vale given his time there, though that is more than debatable. The number could very well be specific do to foreshadowing like JStar said. Which is more what I am working with. I do find a significance with 13, though it is unrelated to the usual Night's King/Last Hero theories, they simply exist as examples for what I am looking at which is unrelated to R+L=J so I'll skip it.

Oh, I don't understand what you want to say))

Well that last part there that you quoted is a joke aimed at Alia of the Knife. It's based off the quotes of Parris in the other link about her and George in a Hot Tub. I used Alia because we once had a chat about Native American culture which is mentioned in the Video, spirit of the eagle and because she is good people. Plus Martin and Parris in a Hot tub, I mean that was just a mental image she did not need to share. Did you read the first link cause it pretty much makes sense if you read that link.

Thanks for the responses guys. That's kind of what I figured.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, GRRM chose seven for a reason. Perhaps that was all of the fighting men that Ned could fully trust (4) and Howland insisting on going because he owed Lyanna a debt. Ned needed his guide, the one who knew about Lyanna's condition directly from Rhaegar (in the Black Cells), as well as her location. I don't think that Varys ever gets a whiff of the truth. We would have known about it sooner, if he had.

Guide? You mean Ethan? Yeah maybe Rhaegar told him, maybe Varys did, he has been known to visit a black cell or two. What saved Ethan after all, everyone got nailed but him, what or who stopped Aerys and why?

But yeah Varys may have no clue but it seems odd that he would miss a secret that big on his own turf. As for Ethan I always had him sort of pegged as the Theon of his little group with Brandon. That he betrayed Brandon, maybe Lyanna too and that is why he got to live. His ride to the Tower being more about redemption after being rewarded with a black cell. I figure that is why Theon sees them and Rickard in a vision, the vision is about betrayal. We see them and then Robb and Grey Wind. I figure Ethan was then imprisoned and probably tortured because I can't imagine old fireball would pass up the chance to torture someone in his very cells, it's like the gift that keeps on giving. I kind of figure someone used Ethan, though no proof so it matter little.

[corbon]

I had a question for a few of the regulars here. What is the general perception here on who Jon's Kingsguard were? Not as people but what were their names. I know it seems totally odd, but it is a real question, and there is an actual point to why I am asking.

Ser Arthur Dayne

Ser Oswell Whent

Ser Gerold Hightower, Lord Commander

[corbon]

20 can move as fast as 7 on horse and a more dominant force would ensure a more peaceful solution.

Not necessarily faster. For example, its much easier to find suitable camping spots, or lodgings at inns, or exchanges of horses , or all sorts of things, for 7 rather than 20.

Its also much much much easier to find 6 men that you know will betray their popular new badass king for you if you ask them to, than 19.

He is traveling in secret. It was a very poorly kept secret.

Is it? Who knows? No one that we know of. So it seems to be a fairly well kept secret. Everyone knows they left, everyone knows Ned turned up at Starfall to return Dawn (thats a fairly notable and public act), there's not a whisper of what they did in between.

Seems to me they traveled in secret rather successfully. More successfully than a 20 man party might have, for example.

Ned chose only North men, even though Ned spent most of his life in the Vale. Martin creates North vs. South here.

Ned spent the last year commanding his northmen in war. That forges different, often closer, bonds than an outsider growing up somewhere foreign. Frankly, if he has any inkling of Lyanna's location and that she might not be amenable to returning to Robert, it would be a shock if he took any non-northmen. He needs men he has an intimate bond with, that he can trust to be loyal to him over their new King Robert, and possibly be loyal to Lyanna over Robert too.

The only way 7 makes sense is if Ned picked a KG/QG for the baby.

Ned didn't pick 7, GRRM did. I imagine that its 7 exactly because of all sorts of cool things, but really its "some small number than can keep a deep secret, travel swiftly, yet can just beat the 3KG". And 7 fits that, and has so many other useful literary fits, so its chosen.

I utterly disagree with any notion that it not a suitable number for any reason, and I think that simplicity serves here, and the additional advantages of "7" are just that, additional.

[Ser Creighton]

Ser Arthur Dayne

Ser Oswell Whent

Ser Gerold Hightower, Lord Commander

Thanks buddy, it's a bit late but thanks. That was actually what I was looking for. Leftwich gave me the info I needed and the topic appears to have been covered plenty.

[Ser Creighton]

Not necessarily faster. For example, its much easier to find suitable camping spots, or lodgings at inns, or exchanges of horses , or all sorts of things, for 7 rather than 20.

Its also much much much easier to find 6 men that you know will betray their popular new badass king for you if you ask them to, than 19.

Is it? Who knows? No one that we know of. So it seems to be a fairly well kept secret. Everyone knows they left, everyone knows Ned turned up at Starfall to return Dawn (thats a fairly notable and public act), there's not a whisper of what they did in between.

Seems to me they traveled in secret rather successfully. More successfully than a 20 man party might have, for example.

Ned spent the last year commanding his northmen in war. That forges different, often closer, bonds than an outsider growing up somewhere foreign. Frankly, if he has any inkling of Lyanna's location and that she might not be amenable to returning to Robert, it would be a shock if he took any non-northmen. He needs men he has an intimate bond with, that he can trust to be loyal to him over their new King Robert, and possibly be loyal to Lyanna over Robert too.

Ned didn't pick 7, GRRM did. I imagine that its 7 exactly because of all sorts of cool things, but really its "some small number than can keep a deep secret, travel swiftly, yet can just beat the 3KG". And 7 fits that, and has so many other useful literary fits, so its chosen.

I utterly disagree with any notion that it not a suitable number for any reason, and I think that simplicity serves here, and the additional advantages of "7" are just that, additional.

Martin has never done a lot of horse exchanges, and entire Armies from Dorne have used that rout and they found places to sleep.

Not Jon's secret, I am talking about traveling in secret, and pretty much everyone knows Ned went there. It's actually rather famous in Westeros.

Ned didn't just spend time with his Northmen, he was with the men of the Vale and the Stormlords as well, they all fought together. Pretty sure he still trusted Jon Arryn, not that Jon was suitable for the mission, but if Jon Arryn was a father figure to him and Robert became his best friend then I am sure he got close to other people as well. I think there is a significance to the Northmen outside the obvious. I am sure he trusted them to some extent, I spent a little time in the Corps. so I get the bonding process, though my closest friends are the guys I grew up with. I figure it's just something Martin did that fits whatever story he is writing.

Yes, Martin picked 7, but I am talking about in book, Ned picked 6 guys, and 6 does not always beat 3 and that was no ordinary 3. We have seen that in the books as well. It's a pretty lousy gamble which lacks an upside. Wylla and Starfall you mention, they didn't go to war with Ned, maybe against him, he killed Dayne, yet they seem to be keeping secrets. Plus how well did Ned know Ethan? He served Brandon and did not fight with Ned.

Ned really didn't have a good plan, 5 deaths indicate it was a shit plan. There is a lot of symbolism there but in terms of strategy it's a shit plan and simple? There is nothing more simple than strength in numbers, trying to figure out the exact out amount of men to do a mission where you just barely want to survive that is complex. Armies have moved all over that map, there is no way I would buy Martin saying yeah they couldn't find horses or a camp site. Sure the armies could but not these 10 dudes. It's 7 for a reason, 8, 9, 10, 6, whatever it would of always been 7. What about attrition, you get bandits, that's been shown in the books, bad weather, a horse slipping, pockets of resistance. I understand the need to keep things secret, but Ned couldn't find 7 loyal guys? Maybe a Royce, a Manderly, a Mormont? Just six guys, even one more makes a big difference. Maybe a Tully, a Mallister, an Umber?

It's not that important, but I would not chalk it up to a solid strategy.

[Alia of the knife]

Guide? You mean Ethan? Yeah maybe Rhaegar told him, maybe Varys did, he has been known to visit a black cell or two. What saved Ethan after all, everyone got nailed but him, what or who stopped Aerys and why?

But yeah Varys may have no clue but it seems odd that he would miss a secret that big on his own turf. As for Ethan I always had him sort of pegged as the Theon of his little group with Brandon. That he betrayed Brandon, maybe Lyanna too and that is why he got to live. His ride to the Tower being more about redemption after being rewarded with a black cell. I figure that is why Theon sees them and Rickard in a vision, the vision is about betrayal. We see them and then Robb and Grey Wind. I figure Ethan was then imprisoned and probably tortured because I can't imagine old fireball would pass up the chance to torture someone in his very cells, it's like the gift that keeps on giving. I kind of figure someone used Ethan, though no proof so it matter little.

Theons connection to the vision is betrayal.

Thats a great catch, a long with Ethan as the potential guide.