Characters that will possibly be cut

[Chebyshov]

I am not sure that's something we can really ever know, since Robb is not a POV character in the book, and we spend much more time with him in the show. IIRC Martin said in an interview that he wishes he had made Robb a fully fledged POV character, but I have to agree that it would suit everything better if it were the Stark pattern of "dying because of honor". Still don't care though.

Eh, it's pretty explicit:

"...It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she

was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother.”

Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. “And you wed her the next day.”

He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. “It was the only honorable thing to do. She’s gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife.”

I think he was pretty content with her, but he would have kept his vows to the Freys had he not besmirched her honor (in the eyes of Westeros).

[Natasi]

On Arianne, I find it unlikely that they would cut her. However, the fact that Trystane is going to be 18 does give pause. As he's been mentioned as Doran's youngest son, I imagine Quentyn is in and his subsequent death by Dragon fire could leave Trystane in line for inheritance. D&D might think that the Sand Snakes are enough to represent the progressive mentality of Dorne and just cut Arianne out altogether. It'd be easy to give one of them the task of crowning Myrcella and seducing a Kingsguard. The only thing it precludes is her possible involvement with Aegon, which leads me to believe... Aegon might just be cut as well.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

Eh, it's pretty explicit:

I think he was pretty content with her, but he would have kept his vows to the Freys had he not besmirched her honor (in the eyes of Westeros).

Oh well. :thumbsup:

[sati]

This, basically. It's weird; a lot of people are saying they white-washed Tyrion on the show to leave us with someone to root for going into next season. But I think if they had made Tyrion appropriately dark and included the epilogue scene, show-watchers would still be pumped and looking forward to S5. Obviously Stoneheart isn't exactly Cat, but the epilogue scene in and of itself wouldn't have revealed that. But I also hate Tyrion, so I'm just personally irritated that they're propping him up to be our hero.

Also, love the new avatar.

Thank you! At least she gets to be featured in my pic :) I think they white-washed him because they really thought show-Shae is a better reason to kill Tywin than book-Tysha :/

Yes, the very first thing he said when that scene came up during the commentary was "I had absolutely nothing to do with this !" (being almost verbatim here) :laugh:

Poor man :lol:

Other shows have events from previous seasons - even going back 2-3-4 seasons - affecting the current season/episode. Look at Breaking Bad - events from Season 1 played out over the last several episodes of the show, in season 5. Even Star Trek: The Next Generation had events/characters taking place over years - the Borg first appeared in Season 2, and then didn't appear again until the season finale of Season 3, over 30 episodes later (the equivalent of 3 full seasons of GoT). The same with Tasha Yar - she dies in Season 1, then appears in a flashback episode in season 3, and then the season finale of season 4 (episode 100), 37 episodes later, as Tasha Yar's half Romulan daughter from the flashback episode.

So, I don't see why having Illyrio from Season 1, or the mention of Tysha, is a big deal. I can see Illyrio being cut, especially if the actor were not available. But, I think Tysha not even being mentioned was a huge oversight.

Not sure what's the point of your post. Yes, it was an oversight. My point is - if something was in season 1 it doesn't mean it won't be erased now. The continuity on the show sucks.

[protar]

I didn't say he had anything to do with the backstory changes. Like I said, if she was named Jeyne, not many people would really care. TBH, I didn't mind Talisa, because Jeyne in my eyes wasn't a fully developed character in the book either way. Though her backstory is indeed flawed. How does a noble lady of Volantis end up in Westeros as a healer? But still didn't really care. Point was, Robb breaks his vow to the Freys and gets his punishment for it.

I think people would still have had a problem with her if she'd been called Jeyne. Just as many of us have a problem with Shae, who is for all intents and purposes and entirely different character on the show.

[Annara Snow]

Yeah, but Book!Robb died because he broke his marriage vows out of honor; Show!Robb died because he broke his betrothal for love. Changes the nature of it completely. I don't mind Talisa that much either, but I did like how history repeated itself with Stark honor.

This, basically. It's weird; a lot of people are saying they white-washed Tyrion on the show to leave us with someone to root for going into next season. But I think if they had made Tyrion appropriately dark and included the epilogue scene, show-watchers would still be pumped and looking forward to S5. Obviously Stoneheart isn't exactly Cat, but the epilogue scene in and of itself wouldn't have revealed that. But I also hate Tyrion, so I'm just personally irritated that they're propping him up to be our hero.

Also, love the new avatar.

Eh, it's pretty explicit:

I think he was pretty content with her, but he would have kept his vows to the Freys had he not besmirched her honor (in the eyes of Westeros).

Yes, it's pretty explicit:

“Enough.” For just an instant Robb sounded more like Brandon than his father. “No man calls my lady of Winterfell a traitor in my hearing, Lord Rickard.” When he turned to Catelyn, his voice softened. “If I could wish the Kingslayer back in chains I would. You freed him without my knowledge or consent... but what you did, I know you did for love. For Arya and Sansa, and out of grief for Bran and Rickon. Love’s not always wise, I’ve learned. It can lead us to great folly, but we follow our hearts... wherever they take us. Don’t we, Mother?”

Is that what I did? “If my heart led me into folly, I would gladly make whatever amends I can to Lord Karstark and yourself.”

Oh Robb, throwing hints at Cat before your own reveal...

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer... or a king. Catelyn saw no choice but to take Jeyne Westerling’s hands. “I have a new daughter,” she said, more stiffly than she’d intended. She kissed the terrified girl on both cheeks. “Be welcome to our hall and hearth.”

“Your wife is lovely,” Catelyn said when they were out of earshot, “and the Westerlings seem worthy... though Lord Gawen is Tywin Lannister’s sworn man, is he not?”

“Yes. Jason Mallister captured him in the Whispering Wood and has been holding him at Seagard for ransom. Of course I’ll free him now, though he may not wish to join me. We wed without his consent, I fear, and this marriage puts him in dire peril. The Crag is not strong. For love of me, Jeyne may lose all.”

“And you,” she said softly, “have lost the Freys.”

And your own quote, with the part you left out:

“I took her castle and she took my heart.,’ Robb smiled. “The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the

news of... of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon.” He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers’ names. “That night, she... she comforted me, Mother.”

Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. “And you wed her the next day.”

He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. “It was the only honorable thing to do. She’s gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife.”

“My ladies.” Robb looked desperately uncomfortable, but he had known this moment must come, and he faced it without flinching. “All men should keep their word, kings most of all. I was pledged to marry one of you and I broke that vow. The fault is not in you. What I did was not done to slight you, but because I loved another. No words can set it right, I know, yet I come before you to ask forgiveness, that the Freys of the Crossing and the Starks of Winterfell may once again be friends.”

I find it perplexing that so many people choose to either completely ignore many of Robb's statements, or act as if he was lying... and focus on just one statement, and treat that one as the only truth.

Do you really think Robb was lying whenever he said that he loved Jeyne? Including to his mother? And what evidence is there of it? You may as well assume that he was just using honor as an excuse. Though I don't think he was (except maybe subconsciously).

I think he married Jeyne because he was in love with her and because he had slept with her and thought it was honorable and right thing to do. I don't think he would have married her just because he loved her if he hadn't slept with her; but I don't think he would have married her just because he slept with her, if he didn't love her. Some fans may think that Robb is a moron, but even he couldn't have been that much of a moron. Jeyne's honor was in no need of protecting, unless he went about telling people that he had sex with her - she wasn't pregnant, and nobody would've known, and it wouldn't have hurt her reputation, nor stop her from getting a good match, any more than it stopped Cersei or Barbary or any other non-virgin (maybe including Margaery) who was officially thought of as a virgin. And, as we know from his own words, Robb believed that he was putting Jeyne in grave danger, too, with this marriage, and that she loved him. If he loved her and she loved him and they had slept together, I can see him thinking it was the right thing to do; if he didn't love her and just thought he had to marry her because they had slept together, he's simply an idiot. It also doesn't make sense to say "he was following in his father's footsteps", because he wasn't. His father and his mother married the person they were arranged to marry, and hadn't slept together beforehand; and Robb died believing that his father had a bastard with another woman.

I also find it amusing that the show simplified Robb's character and motivations into "badass king who marries for True Love" but many of the readers who criticize it try so hard to simplify book Robb's character and motivations just as much, trying to fit him into the "ridiculously honor-bound moron" trope that people believe Ned was. (Which is only partially true for Ned, too. Ned made many of his biggest mistakes out of compassion [trying to save Cersei's kids from Robert's potential wrath] or love - not romantic love, but love for his family or his best friend [including lying to Robert on his death bed]; his last action was throwing his honor in the dirt in order to save his daughter's life.)

That may be why GRRM feels sorry he didn't give Robb a POV. The main difference between book Robb and show Robb is that book!Robb is more complicated, more confused, less sure about what he's doing, more apologetic (especially to his mother), more reliant on his mother's advice, and much more interesting (and to me, more likable than show!Robb who rails on everyone for their mistakes but doesn't seem very upset with his own). And he's also really a boy king, which also makes him more endearing and more interesting. The changes may have been made partially because show!Robb, although supposedly also a teenager (albeit an older one) was played by a 26/27-year old man who looked his age, and partially because D&D wanted to make Robb into a conventional Badass Hero.

ETA: Also, I wonder if some of the people who are convinced Robb didn't love Jeyne are thinking along the same lines as D&D did when they changed her personality and created Talisa. Our Hero couldn't have loved such an ordinary girl like Jeyne, right? Nope, if it's really love, then the woman he broke the vow for has to be super speshual and "not like other girls", a Strong Female Character with anachronistically modern views. I don't see anything hard to believe about 15/16-year old Robb falling in love with a pretty and sweet but not extraordinary girl who took care of him while he was extremely vulnerable; two attractive teenagers, a combination of hormones and emotional vulnerability, comfort and emotional bond that can form in such circumstances, first time sex, falling in love - all this is a pretty plausible turn of events, and also, IMO, would have been much more interesting to watch on screen, or read in the book, than the conventional Robb/Talisa "Love at First Sight! Perfect for Each Other!" romance.

[Chebyshov]

I think he married Jeyne because he was in love with her and because he had slept with her and thought it was honorable and right thing to do. I don't think he would have married her just because he loved her if he hadn't slept with her; but I don't think he would have married her just because he slept with her, if he didn't love her.

I think that's a good way to look at it, and I don't disagree at all. I wasn't trying to paint a reductive view of his relationship with Jeyne, but merely point out that honor was a large part of his downfall, as it was Ned's. You're right in that I did word it poorly, but my point was that the Talisa story-line only focused on love, which was disappointing.

[Annara Snow]

I think that's a good way to look at it, and I don't disagree at all. I wasn't trying to paint a reductive view of his relationship with Jeyne, but merely point out that honor was a large part of his downfall, as it was Ned's. You're right in that I did word it poorly, but my point was that the Talisa story-line only focused on love, which was disappointing.

I agree with that. Sorry if I assumed you had the view that Robb married just out of honor and that there was no love there. My reply was generally a comment about this interpretation of Robb's story that I often see, which also seems reductive. Like I said above, book!Robb is more interesting and has more complicated motivations than show!Robb. The whole situation with Robb and Jeyne was much more complicated and ambiguous than the show's conventional True Love story. It felt like your typical Hollywood romance, both were acting in an anachronistic way (Robb scolding Cat for arranged his marriage to a Frey felt so out of place - someone from his setting would always expect to end up in an arranged marriage and while some people in the series do decide to marry for love, or to reject arranged marriages, it's a big, difficult and rebellious decision, not something they think they're entitled to from the start), and Robb was made into a conventional Badass Hero. Which only made me care less about him.

They could have at least made Robb's story about struggling between love and duty, but show!Robb didn't seem to struggle at all, you could have seen him hooking up with Talisa coming from a mile away and he just seemed determined to do whatever he wanted.

[TaenaOfMyr]

There are far more than "few backstory differences" between Talisa and Jeyne. Her name is the least of a problem and it's certainly not the reason people hated the change. They are two completely different characters with two completely different personalities. And the reason why the change sucks isn't because it was different than in the books, it was because it was bad writing, period: Talisa is a ridiculously anachronistic Mary Sue, and her introduction scene is one of the most cringeworthy scenes in the entire show, an example of the unrealistic bullshit in bad quasi-medieval fiction that, ironically, GRRM spoke against in an earlier interview:

"And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that."

Do you really see Robb acting that way though? I don't. I personally thought they improved Jeyne quite a bit in the show. Was a much better character and one you could legitimately see Robb falling in love with and marrying. They should have moved him finding out about Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' to before he married her, but otherwise, it was an improvement over the books IMHO.

I don't think Manderly is cut. It's just too much story and he is so much fun. Also I hope even they, oblivious as they are to what will bring backlash, realize that if all the new people they include are sexy kittens in Dorne book readers will riot.

D&D should nto be making decisions on teh show based on whether they think it will bring backlash from book readers. Book readers are an extremely small fraction of the viewing audience and the show would still be a huge success without them. They should base whether they retain or remove characters or plots based on the restrictions imposed upon them by the medium/budget, and what would make the storyline the best for TV.

Wasn't he the one who made her pregnant? He wrote Bear and the Maiden Fair

While GRRM wrote that episode, D&D surely were the ones who plotted out the season and decided that she would be pregnant. GRRM almost certainly had a specific outline provided to him of what was to be in the episode he wrote.

[Chebyshov]

D&D should not be making decisions on the show based on whether they think it will bring backlash from book readers. Book readers are an extremely small fraction of the viewing audience and the show would still be a huge success without them. They should base whether they retain or remove characters or plots based on the restrictions imposed upon them by the medium/budget, and what would make the storyline the best for TV.

I'm sure that's not how they're making decisions (LS was "never even discussed" for S4, for example), but do we know how small of a fraction book readers are? I know after the show's first season there was something like 4 million copies of the first 4 books in print, and it seems like every year more and more show-watchers read them. I'm sure this is a metric we can never track, but I am curious because it is often evoked in these conversations.

[sj4iy]

I would pay money to have them cut Quentyn altogether.

[Cas Stark]

I'm sure that's not how they're making decisions (LS was "never even discussed" for S4, for example), but do we know how small of a fraction book readers are? I know after the show's first season there was something like 4 million copies of the first 4 books in print, and it seems like every year more and more show-watchers read them. I'm sure this is a metric we can never track, but I am curious because it is often evoked in these conversations.

I doubt book readers are an "extremely small fraction" of the audience, given that the series has sold millions of copies and I would assume most people who read it are watching the show. And, fan backlash is a real thing. Stoneheart was always a divisive character, even Cat was divisive, for reasons unknown to me. Manderly however, is, I think, universally loved, maybe the first universally loved cannibal child killer in literary history, LOL. He's also a great TV character for those same reasons, there is no logical purpose to cutting him.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

D&D should nto be making decisions on teh show based on whether they think it will bring backlash from book readers. Book readers are an extremely small fraction of the viewing audience and the show would still be a huge success without them. They should base whether they retain or remove characters or plots based on the restrictions imposed upon them by the medium/budget, and what would make the storyline the best for TV.

I'm pretty sure that lots of people, after watching the show started reading the books as well (including many people in this forum). If I were to guess, I'd say about 2 fifths of the audience have read the books (That is not a small fraction) and more have been spoiled by trolls on the internet.

[Annara Snow]

Do you really see Robb acting that way though? I don't.

What way? Like the hypothetical prince who rapes/kills/tortures the spunky peasant? That's not the point. GRRM's point was clearly that there were strong class structures in place. Talisa may not be a peasant, but she is just a nurse in the battlefield when he meets her and he is a king, it's completely ridiculous that she would have acted like that in the first place. She wouldn't. Nobody would. Let's say, maybe she is a spoiled, sheltered aristocrat from Volantis who never had to deal with that; she wouldn't have lasted long if she behaved like that on the battlefields of Westeros. Roose Bolton would have had her flayed for something like that. Most lords would have at least punished her some way if she talked back like that. So, Robb is a nice guy; are we to assume Talisa talked to him like that because she had heard she would be able to and he wouldn't do anything? If Robb had such a reputation, he would have had no authority and respect among his lords. And since Robb is the guy who had his direwolf chop off a couple of Greatjon's fingers when Greatjon challenged his authority, I really don't think Robb had such a reputation.

Talisa's behavior in general was ridiculously anachronistic, it's like she was transported straight from the 21st century and had no time to acclimate to Planetos.

I personally thought they improved Jeyne quite a bit in the show. Was a much better character and one you could legitimately see Robb falling in love with and marrying. They should have moved him finding out about Bran and Rickon's 'deaths' to before he married her, but otherwise, it was an improvement over the books IMHO.

Funnily enough, I had already replied to that argument even before you made it, in the edited addition to my previous post:

ETA: Also, I wonder if some of the people who are convinced Robb didn't love Jeyne are thinking along the same lines as D&D did when they changed her personality and created Talisa. Our Hero couldn't have loved such an ordinary girl like Jeyne, right? Nope, if it's really love, then the woman he broke the vow for has to be super speshual and "not like other girls", a Strong Female Character with anachronistically modern views. I don't see anything hard to believe about 15/16-year old Robb falling in love with a pretty and sweet but not extraordinary girl who took care of him while he was extremely vulnerable; two attractive teenagers, a combination of hormones and emotional vulnerability, comfort and emotional bond that can form in such circumstances, first time sex, falling in love - all this is a pretty plausible turn of events, and also, IMO, would have been much more interesting to watch on screen, or read in the book, than the conventional Robb/Talisa "Love at First Sight! Perfect for Each Other!" romance.

D&D should nto be making decisions on teh show based on whether they think it will bring backlash from book readers. Book readers are an extremely small fraction of the viewing audience and the show would still be a huge success without them. They should base whether they retain or remove characters or plots based on the restrictions imposed upon them by the medium/budget, and what would make the storyline the best for TV.

The problem is that some of these changes made for bad storylines for TV, or at least much worse storylines than they would have been if they had stuck to the book story.

[Chebyshov]

I doubt book readers are an "extremely small fraction" of the audience, given that the series has sold millions of copies and I would assume most people who read it are watching the show. And, fan backlash is a real thing. Stoneheart was always a divisive character, even Cat was divisive, for reasons unknown to me. Manderly however, is, I think, universally loved, maybe the first universally loved cannibal child killer in literary history, LOL. He's also a great TV character for those same reasons, there is no logical purpose to cutting him.

The only "logic" I can see in cutting him (which I'm very much against, of course) would be the fact that based on the casting leaks we have so far, we're looking at 13 new characters, and it by no means seems to be an exhaustive list. There's something to be said for being parsimonious with new faces on the show, as there are still some show-watchers who have trouble telling apart Stannis and Roose (my brother, for example).

If Manderly is cut, I'm sure his more memorable actions will be taken on by another Northern Lord, say Greatjon (as some have speculated). I can't see D&D missing out on the Frey Pies either, but the details of their realization could be different. Hopefully he'll be cast, but I understand that books are able to get away with having such a high number of characters, whereas TV shows have to be a bit more strategic about it.

[Cas Stark]

The only "logic" I can see in cutting him (which I'm very much against, of course) would be the fact that based on the casting leaks we have so far, we're looking at 13 new characters, and it by no means seems to be an exhaustive list. There's something to be said for being parsimonious with new faces on the show, as there are still some show-watchers who have trouble telling apart Stannis and Roose (my brother, for example).

If Manderly is cut, I'm sure his more memorable actions will be taken on by another Northern Lord, say Greatjon (as some have speculated). I can't see D&D missing out on the Frey Pies either, but the details of their realization could be different. Hopefully he'll be cast, but I understand that books are able to get away with having such a high number of characters, whereas TV shows have to be a bit more strategic about it.

I think he will be cast, I can't even understand why they would give his story to an "Umber"...and while I'm of mixed views on the Great Northern Conspiracy, he's got silver, ships and men...kills and eats Freys and orders children killed and then talks smack about it...and is fat and jolly yet sly. This is made for TV stuff.

I also can't understand why people think Arianne will be cut, of all people, she's the only Martell who has gotten off her ass and done anything, despite fucking it up, and she's a princess and heir to Dorne and even in the books likes to take her clothes off...so, that is right up D&D's alley. I pray they cut the entire Quentyn story, I only wish there was a way to excise it from the books as well.

One of the Greyjoys I have to believe is going to get cut though. Maybe both, but not sure "Asha" can take the place of both of them.

[protar]

Personally I can see the Umbers taking on the roles of both the Manderly's and the Mountain Clans. Jon suggests to Stannis that he recruit the Umbers. He goes to The Last Hearth with Davos to find the Freys treating with the Umbers. The whole Frey Pie thing happens and the Umbers agree to join Stannis' army. First stop is Deepwoode Motte where they capture Asha. Towards the end of the season the Umbers reveal that they sent Rickon off to Skaagos and Davos is sent on his solo adventure for Season 6.

[Deadwood]

Arianne is replaced by the snakes.

Manderley by the Umbers.

But Yara replace two uncles? Seems we are getting the Queensmoot, but I agree it seems unlikely that she could replace both, but not impossible.

[Chebyshov]

I think he will be cast, I can't even understand why they would give his story to an "Umber"...and while I'm of mixed views on the Great Northern Conspiracy, he's got silver, ships and men...kills and eats Freys and orders children killed and then talks smack about it...and is fat and jolly yet sly. This is made for TV stuff.

I also can't understand why people think Arianne will be cut, of all people, she's the only Martell who has gotten off her ass and done anything, despite fucking it up, and she's a princess and heir to Dorne and even in the books likes to take her clothes off...so, that is right up D&D's alley. I pray they cut the entire Quentyn story, I only wish there was a way to excise it from the books as well.

One of the Greyjoys I have to believe is going to get cut though. Maybe both, but not sure "Asha" can take the place of both of them.

I hope you're right. Given that the last 2 episodes shat all over my predictions, I'm less inclined to guess at anything, but I do agree with your sentiments, particularly about Arianne. That paranoia over her character is more about the direction the audition scripts seem to be taking the Dornish plot, but our information is woefully incomplete.

Your prayers about Quentyn may be answered, especially giving an aged-up Tryst. But how they plan on addressing the Targ marriage contracts (if at all) is beyond me.

I do believe we're getting a Kingsmoot; there is a GoT tour in Belfast and a poster claimed to have been taking to a "kingsmoot" spot. To me that indicates at least 2 uncles, but they could get away with 1. If I had my drothers, all Greyjoy uncles would be cut, but I guess rapey pirates make for good TV. And mayhaps they influence the end-game, so they'll be necessary.

Personally I can see the Umbers taking on the roles of both the Manderly's and the Mountain Clans. Jon suggests to Stannis that he recruit the Umbers. He goes to The Last Hearth with Davos to find the Freys treating with the Umbers. The whole Frey Pie thing happens and the Umbers agree to join Stannis' army. First stop is Deepwoode Motte where they capture Asha. Towards the end of the season the Umbers reveal that they sent Rickon off to Skaagos and Davos is sent on his solo adventure for Season 6.

As long as when we meet up with Rickon he looks something like this and is leading a herd of unicorns, I'll be on-board.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

If Wyman Manderly's role is retconned with 'GreatJon Umber of White Harbour', God help us all. What I love about book Manderly is how disarming he initially appears.