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Khal Jhaqo will be dragon food… what a nonsense!


Mithras

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The cliff hanger works well in TV when you get your next instalment next week. It's increasingly used at the end of a season to keep you invested in the next season (which isn't great from a story-telling point of view but is great for securing ratings and making a commercial success). But waiting one week for an episode or one year for the next season is different to waiting five years for the next book. I'm not too fond of the overuse and it's starting to grate a bit.

I can understand, and sympathize/empathize, with your impatience, but this is hardly something new to storytelling, its been around for centuries. Most recently, it was the hallmark of the LOTR books and now even more so with ASOIAF, given the large number of narratives being told in parallel. The only comment I can make is that writing books takes a long time, not just for George but for basically every author. ASOIAF is a monumentally large effort, the first four books alone are the same length as the seven books of the Harry Potter series. ASOIAF is what it is in large part due to its length, the breadth and depth of story that that allows, but it comes with a price - time.

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I would agree that that's the most likely result, but its hardly something I feel sure about, most particularly with this author, I wouldn't take anything for granted. Moreover, just because you expect something to happen, that doesn't make it a cliffhanger unless you are sure. In LOTR, when Aragorn falls in the river, you expected him to survive, but you weren't entirely sure, and that leaves you on the edge of your seat until you get back to the thread that picks up that particular narrative again.

I know you probably know this, but my inner Tolkein nerd is screaming at me to point out that is an invention of Pete Jackson, and never occurs in the books

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I know you probably know this, but my inner Tolkein nerd is screaming at me to point out that is an invention of Pete Jackson, and never occurs in the books

Completely fair point. I had a bunch of examples where Tolkien seemingly killed a character ("and then he knew no more"), and I went and chose a fake one. :dunce: A better choice would have been at the end of Two Towers where Frodo is captured by orcs - you expect him to survive, but you aren't entirely sure of that (its possible that Frodo could have died/been captured and Sam finished the quest by himself), so its definitely a cliffhanger. The difference with George Martin is that he's considerably more likely to actually kill characters off, something Tolkien threatened a lot but rarely did.

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Well, its not a cliffhanger if the readers know what's going to happen next. And Khal Jhaqo getting roasted or kneeling is definately something that is expected, both of which have one end result, thus not making it a cliffhanger.

Well, the only reason we have a particular expectation of how that's going to turn out is that we know Dany is a/the protagonist of this story. Almost all cliffhangers involving major characters in stories suffer from this exact same problem. So by your definition, there's almost no such thing as a cliffhanger.

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Well, the only reason we have a particular expectation of how that's going to turn out is that we know Dany is a/the protagonist of this story. Almost all cliffhangers involving major characters in stories suffer from this exact same problem. So by your definition, there's almost no such thing as a cliffhanger.

Case in point: The Ides of Marsh. Very few think Jon is just going to die and be out of the story forever

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Completely fair point. I had a bunch of examples where Tolkien seemingly killed a character ("and then he knew no more"), and I went and chose a fake one. :dunce: A better choice would have been at the end of Two Towers where Frodo is captured by orcs - you expect him to survive, but you aren't entirely sure of that (its possible that Frodo could have died/been captured and Sam finished the quest by himself), so its definitely a cliffhanger. The difference with George Martin is that he's considerably more likely to actually kill characters off, something Tolkien threatened a lot but rarely did.

The difference is LOTR is one book, split into three for publication, but still one book so the cliff hangers are a normal part of dramatic storytelling within one narrative. The impact of TV on storytelling is huge - you break a story in the middle so people will come back next year for the next part. That's a radical departure from literature where you reach a conclusion to a narrative at the end of a book and then starting a fresh narrative in the next. Compare with Robert Jordan's WOT (if you know it) - The Eye of The World, The Great Hunt, The Dragon Reborn, all tell a particular story. Sure it's part of the overall plot but when you finished each book you know you have reached a conclusion to the current events and you're not breaking off mid scene (watching Jon getting stabbed or Dany facing off against Jhaquo) while the screen flashes up "TO BE CONTINUED".

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In the case of Jon, I think the cliffhanger there is more about what will happen next with Jon's story and how he'll survive than "Is he actually dead?" At least that's how I read it the first time. My gut reaction after finishing that chapter for the first time was, "Wait, WHAT?" Then when I stopped to think about it, it became more about what the character was going through next than whether he'd survive. He's obviously not out of the story for good. He's far too important. It's the same thing with Dany for me. What will she do next? How will it affect her for the rest of the story?

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Then when I stopped to think about it, it became more about what the character was going through next than whether he'd survive. He's obviously not out of the story for good. He's far too important. It's the same thing with Dany for me. What will she do next? How will it affect her for the rest of the story?

That's what I think too. Its not a case of "will Dany survive" more a case of "what will she and Drogon do?"

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Well, the only reason we have a particular expectation of how that's going to turn out is that we know Dany is a/the protagonist of this story. Almost all cliffhangers involving major characters in stories suffer from this exact same problem. So by your definition, there's almost no such thing as a cliffhanger.

No. Thats not the reason. She also has a dragon if you've noticed and before this theory came up I thought well Drogon is just going to roast Jhaqo or Jhaqo will yield. Those were the two possible outcomes both as I mentioned earlier would result in ONE scenario which really isn't a cliffhanger. Emphasis on one end result. When I finished reading that chapter I didn't think, "or dear what will Dany do?" cause she was standing right next to the solution i.e. Drogon. But if there is a liklihood that that solution would be compromised then thats a cliffhanger.

Jon's chapter ending for example was one such. Its not clear whether he's dead or not. If he's dead, its also not clear how he'll be brought back to life; will it be via bloodraven or via mel? And if we like to stretch it; will he be whitewalkered?

The myriad possibilities of the likely direction a story might take after a certain cut-off is what makes it a cliffhanger. Not two possibilities that lead to ONE end result.

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I would agree that that's the most likely result, but its hardly something I feel sure about, most particularly with this author, I wouldn't take anything for granted. Moreover, just because you expect something to happen, that doesn't make it a cliffhanger unless you are sure. In LOTR, when Aragorn falls in the river, you expected him to survive, but you weren't entirely sure, and that leaves you on the edge of your seat until you get back to the thread that picks up that particular narrative again.

I have to refer you to my reply to Hodor's dragon because I don't think I can effectively respond to your post since I'm not a big fan of LOTR. I only watched the movies in my later years after I had read and watched a pile of books and movies, so everything in the story was rather unsurprising and dare I say it... cliche

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I have to refer you to my reply to Hodor's dragon because I don't think I can effectively respond to your post since I'm not a big fan of LOTR. I only watched the movies in my later years after I had read and watched a pile of books and movies, so everything in the story was rather unsurprising and dare I say it... cliche

If you believe that there is only one possible resolution to that dilemma, then I'd agree that from your perspective, you wouldn't consider it to be a cliffhanger. For myself and, I suspect, for the majority of readers, there are more than one possible resolution (Dany roasts/"dethrones" Jhaqo, Dany is captured by Jhaqo, Dany is killed, ...) and thus it is a cliffhanger. I suppose you could argue that Dany is the protagonist of the story, and thus untouchable, but I would suggest that that reasoning is somewhat flawed, this is a story with multiple protagonists (or, you could argue, with no clear delineation between protagonist and antagonist), some of which do get killed and/or at least brought low from time to time.

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The difference is LOTR is one book, split into three for publication, but still one book so the cliff hangers are a normal part of dramatic storytelling within one narrative. The impact of TV on storytelling is huge - you break a story in the middle so people will come back next year for the next part. That's a radical departure from literature where you reach a conclusion to a narrative at the end of a book and then starting a fresh narrative in the next. Compare with Robert Jordan's WOT (if you know it) - The Eye of The World, The Great Hunt, The Dragon Reborn, all tell a particular story. Sure it's part of the overall plot but when you finished each book you know you have reached a conclusion to the current events and you're not breaking off mid scene (watching Jon getting stabbed or Dany facing off against Jhaquo) while the screen flashes up "TO BE CONTINUED".

What you are seeing, in my view, is an evolution toward series in literature. Traditionally, you either had completely standalone novels, or novels in which you reused the same characters and storytelling format, but each novel stood on its own. There might have been a continuation of the character development/evolution, but no concrete link in the storylines. As time has gone on, however, we see longer and more interlinked series. The Narnia series, for example, are up to seven books, with the characters evolving, but the storylines largely independent. The Foundation series has a tighter interlinking of the stories, but much less character evolution. The Harry Potter series has both, with storylines which are fundamentally unresolved until the end of the series. This series is, among the greatly popular series, further down that stage, in which if you printed them as a single (extremely large) manuscript, you would have a great deal of difficulty determining where one book ends and another begins, with cliffhangers being the most telling factor. As you say, this is much more like TV episodes and seasons which, given this author's background, should not be surprising. Personally, I enjoy this form of storytelling, there is much less need to tie up threads on a temporary basis so that an artificial boundary can be established to allow the printing of book. Remember, also, that this is becoming more and more prevalent, as less well-known authors now release chapters at a time, not waiting for the whole book to be finished before releasing it. I know my daughter reads a lot of online books this way, and eagerly anticipates the next chapter becoming available.

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When Daenery's dragons hatched the first time, her Dothraki followed her unquestioningly whereas beforehand the three bloodriders weren't even willing to accept her as their khaleesi and were begging her to just go join the Dosh Khaleen. It could very well be that these Dothraki follow her without a fight, especially if they see her ride Drogon. They might even offer up Jhaqo willingly if he doesn't want to submit.



As for fighting the Dothraki: air superiority, my friends, air superiority. Drogon really only has to char Khal Jhaqo, and the others will submit willingly, but just in case the shit gets real, Drogon can just fly really high and fast, and napalm the Dothraki before they even know where he is. Just because he can't lift a horse carcass doesn't mean he can't torch a few dozen in a short time. In fact, the smaller he is, the smaller and harder the target is for an errant spear or arrow.


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If you believe that there is only one possible resolution to that dilemma, then I'd agree that from your perspective, you wouldn't consider it to be a cliffhanger. For myself and, I suspect, for the majority of readers, there are more than one possible resolution (Dany roasts/"dethrones" Jhaqo, Dany is captured by Jhaqo, Dany is killed, ...) and thus it is a cliffhanger. I suppose you could argue that Dany is the protagonist of the story, and thus untouchable, but I would suggest that that reasoning is somewhat flawed, this is a story with multiple protagonists (or, you could argue, with no clear delineation between protagonist and antagonist), some of which do get killed and/or at least brought low from time to time.

I think you are arguing against a point I didn't make. I never said Dany is a protagonist. I honestly do not get what you are trying to say because the ending of that scene does not suggest that Dany's life is peril. On the surface, it suggests that Khal Jhaqo's life however might be. I think the author has led us to believe one thing when in fact something else might happen. Which is the point of this theory.
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Im not sure if it has been brought up yet, but Dany swore to a bunch of gods that "Mago and Ko Jhaqo will plead for the mercy they showed Eroeh."



Mago is Khal Jhaqo's Blood Rider, and he was the first to take Eroeh and rape her, then he gave her to Jhaqo and Jaquo gave her to 6 others, when they were done they slit her throat.



Dany will not forget this... unless she is a stupid bitch that forgets who she is...


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I think you are arguing against a point I didn't make. I never said Dany is a protagonist. I honestly do not get what you are trying to say because the ending of that scene does not suggest that Dany's life is peril. On the surface, it suggests that Khal Jhaqo's life however might be. I think the author has led us to believe one thing when in fact something else might happen. Which is the point of this theory.

You were claiming that it wasn't a cliffhanger. I believe it is, there is no clear indication from the text what the outcome is going to be, there are multiple outcomes which different substantially from one another.

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