Farwynds Oceanseer Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 After the botching of Bran's storyline this season, the deletion of Lady Stoneheart would signal that D&D don't really understand GRRM's universe. I'm already starting to worry that D&D don't understand fantasy, or at least don't understand the role of magic in the ASOIF. First, when Bran goes north, they replace Cold Hands and they eerie COTF with a generic psychic guidance (a sort of magic GPS) followed by Santa and his elves in place of BR. It's as if D&D were saying, "OK kids, we can't cut the fantasy out of this plot line, so here's your Sinbad skeletons, benevolent elves and kindly Dumbledore." Gone is the sense of the COTF as a distinct race with its own agenda and shamanistic culture (both more primitive and more advanced than south of the wall, since green seeing takes the place of written knowledge). Gone is the sense of Bloodraven as a particular historical individual who learned the game of thrones among the Targaryans generations ago and now takes his particular sensibility, limitations, and possible political agenda into the game of Ice and Fire. Gone is the ambience of decay that suggests BR and the COTF have had to become similar to their adversaries to fight them--or may even be allied with the Others. No 9 year old boy living with a barely animated corpse and non-human, cat-eyed beings. Instead we get Dumbledore and a bunch of faerie creatures that belong on the set of True Blood keeping vampires out of Faerieland. It's as if they think magic has to be old hollywood cliches and nothing but. If D&D really think Lady Stoneheart is an extraneous plot device that cheapens the tragedy of the Red Wedding, then they don't understand the genre or Lady Stoneheart. GRRM's magic comes at a cost--Dany had to sacrifice everything she held dear to get her dragons, only half aware of the cost until after she paid it, just as most who pursue wealth and power have to sacrifice love, family, and happiness. Catelyn was resurrected at a cost--she wasn't magically cured of the intense trauma suffered at her death, and only her dominant obsessions at her death--revenge and the survival of her daughters--live on in her second life. She is a horrific (and pitiable) being. She simultaneously fulfills a wish (one of the audience reaction recordings for the Red Wedding is someone yelling out "No! Go Kill Bill!") and shows you how much someone's sanity would unravel if that wish could really be fulfilled. I'd love for Arya to meet LSH and realize this is what she's become on the inside. It could be the catalyst for her recovering some portion of her humanity. LSH lets you have your wish for revenge and experience how dehumanizing the fulfillment of the wish would be. I don't know what role LSH will play in TWOW and ADOS, but it would be moving and devasting for Sansa and Arya to meet her. If Cat had survived naturally as a scarred crippled being driven mad by grief and rage, she would exemplify why the Faceless Men offer death as a gift (again, making me eager and horrified for a possible meeting between LSH and Arya). As a vengeance zombie, she makes one of GRRM's main points: even if magic worked, human nature wouldn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheButcherCrow Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 <snip> Great post :cheers: Myself, I'm willing to give D&D the benefit of the doubt and say, they understand all of the points you made, it's just they don't think the "average viewer" would. Are they right ? :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Great post :cheers: Myself, I'm willing to give D&D the benefit of the doubt and say, they understand all of the points you made, it's just they don't think the "average viewer" would. Are they right ? :dunno: Given that Shakespeare was as popular with the pit as he was with aristocrats, in an age when most people were illiterate. I think we could safely say that D&D underestimate their audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arry Lannister Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I saw a post in Youtube(?) I believe (can't remember right now) which suggested something that I think makes perfect sense. Remember when they turn Show Sansa into a vampire "bad-ass"? The poster said that they could easily just give LS' role to Show!Sansa. I agree with this post. I can see Show!Sansa hanging the freys in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Well, shit. I love how she called that storyline an extraneous detail LOL. So far there's nothing she's done that can't be done by someone else in the BWB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 After the botching of Bran's storyline this season, the deletion of Lady Stoneheart would signal that D&D don't really understand GRRM's universe. I'm already starting to worry that D&D don't understand fantasy, or at least don't understand the role of magic in the ASOIF. First, when Bran goes north, they replace Cold Hands and they eerie COTF with a generic psychic guidance (a sort of magic GPS) followed by Santa and his elves in place of BR. It's as if D&D were saying, "OK kids, we can't cut the fantasy out of this plot line, so here's your Sinbad skeletons, benevolent elves and kindly Dumbledore." Gone is the sense of the COTF as a distinct race with its own agenda and shamanistic culture (both more primitive and more advanced than south of the wall, since green seeing takes the place of written knowledge). Gone is the sense of Bloodraven as a particular historical individual who learned the game of thrones among the Targaryans generations ago and now takes his particular sensibility, limitations, and possible political agenda into the game of Ice and Fire. Gone is the ambience of decay that suggests BR and the COTF have had to become similar to their adversaries to fight them--or may even be allied with the Others. No 9 year old boy living with a barely animated corpse and non-human, cat-eyed beings. Instead we get Dumbledore and a bunch of faerie creatures that belong on the set of True Blood keeping vampires out of Faerieland. It's as if they think magic has to be old hollywood cliches and nothing but. If D&D really think Lady Stoneheart is an extraneous plot device that cheapens the tragedy of the Red Wedding, then they don't understand the genre or Lady Stoneheart. GRRM's magic comes at a cost--Dany had to sacrifice everything she held dear to get her dragons, only half aware of the cost until after she paid it, just as most who pursue wealth and power have to sacrifice love, family, and happiness. Catelyn was resurrected at a cost--she wasn't magically cured of the intense trauma suffered at her death, and only her dominant obsessions at her death--revenge and the survival of her daughters--live on in her second life. She is a horrific (and pitiable) being. She simultaneously fulfills a wish (one of the audience reaction recordings for the Red Wedding is someone yelling out "No! Go Kill Bill!") and shows you how much someone's sanity would unravel if that wish could really be fulfilled. I'd love for Arya to meet LSH and realize this is what she's become on the inside. It could be the catalyst for her recovering some portion of her humanity. LSH lets you have your wish for revenge and experience how dehumanizing the fulfillment of the wish would be. I don't know what role LSH will play in TWOW and ADOS, but it would be moving and devasting for Sansa and Arya to meet her. If Cat had survived naturally as a scarred crippled being driven mad by grief and rage, she would exemplify why the Faceless Men offer death as a gift (again, making me eager and horrified for a possible meeting between LSH and Arya). As a vengeance zombie, she makes one of GRRM's main points: even if magic worked, human nature wouldn't change. Sorry, I find this hilarious. I've been reading fantasy for most of my life now, and there's nothing to 'understand' about the genre. There is no deep meaning to Martin's books, other than what's there on the page. Martin himself started out with very little fantasy, and was even on the fence on whether to add dragons. He only started really to put it in as the books went on. The show has done the same. The show was always going to simplify the storyline because of the limitations it has, but it has done so without affecting the overall storyline itself. At the end of the day, the characters are where they are supposed to be and doing what they are supposed to be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 So far there's nothing she's done that can't be done by someone else in the BWB. Doing this by someone else strips it of all the meaning, considering the bond and oath between Brienne and Catelyn as well as he fact that the vengeance towards Freys is actually being handled by the victim of their crime I saw a post in Youtube(?) I believe (can't remember right now) which suggested something that I think makes perfect sense. Remember when they turn Show Sansa into a vampire "bad-ass"? The poster said that they could easily just give LS' role to Show!Sansa. I agree with this post. I can see Show!Sansa hanging the freys in the series. If they give my favorite book storyline to freaking Sansa I'm done with that show. Her little scene in 4x08 was already unbelievable and ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arry Lannister Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 If they give my favorite book storyline to freaking Sansa I'm done with that show. Her little scene in 4x08 was already unbelievable and ridiculous. Well I also don't like Sansa, but it seems plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiffy Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Well I also don't like Sansa, but it seems plausible. that will be comical. Noway they are gonna do that. People would laugh at that Like i say they must be trolling it would not make logical sense to cut her from the show and i highly doubt GRRM would resurrect Cat just to have her killed without becoming a really big character. There is already signs of that now as her role has continued to get bigger and bigger and now she has life and death situations with 2 MAJOR POV characters from the show/Book. They can introduce Lady Stoneheart at any point in Season 5. It doesn't have to be the first set of episodes either, but that would be the logical choice to place the reveal scene.Brienne is going to have some powerful scenes with her and consequences. They are not going to throw it out the window, not a chance. That would beb insane. Since they already established a relationship with Cat/Brienne on the show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 that will be comical. Noway they are gonna do that. People would laugh at that Like i say they must be trolling it would not make logical sense to cut her from the show and i highly doubt GRRM would resurrect Cat just to have her killed without becoming a really big character. There is already signs of that now as her role has continued to get bigger and bigger and now she has life and death situations with 2 MAJOR POV characters from the show/Book. They can introduce Lady Stoneheart at any point in Season 5. It doesn't have to be the first set of episodes either, but that would be the logical choice to place the reveal scene.Brienne is going to have some powerful scenes with her and consequences. They are not going to throw it out the window, not a chance. That would beb insane. Since they already established a relationship with Cat/Brienne on the showAlso if they gave LS stuff to someone else they would be robbing Gwen of some amazing acting to do - she is such a wonderful Brienne and her scenes with LS would allow her to show so much - fear, doubt, conflict. It's not just about the impact of the scenes but also what amazing job the actors could do with this story arc, Michelle is just perfect for both Cat and LS we saw glimpses of her hateful, vengeful side many times in the first 3 seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiffy Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Also if they gave LS stuff to someone else they would be robbing Gwen of some amazing acting to do - she is such a wonderful Brienne and her scenes with LS would allow her to show so much - fear, doubt, conflict. It's not just about the impact of the scenes but also what amazing job the actors could do with this story arc, Michelle is just perfect for both Cat and LS we saw glimpses of her hateful, vengeful side many times in the first 3 seasons Agreed. Gwen and Michelle are gonna knock that scene out of the park. It would not make sense if Brienne would encounter someone else not with the history they even have created on the show for these 2 as well. They would be nuts to pass up such a suspenseful scene on the show. Then soon with Nikolaj as well as we know he will also likely meet LS and they have also establised a relationship with these 2 actors with the whole scene where Jaime was kept prisoner by Cat and Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arry Lannister Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 LS- Lady Sansa. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I saw a post in Youtube(?) I believe (can't remember right now) which suggested something that I think makes perfect sense. Remember when they turn Show Sansa into a vampire "bad-ass"? The poster said that they could easily just give LS' role to Show!Sansa. I agree with this post. I can see Show!Sansa hanging the freys in the series.This may not be the worst idea ever, but it's certainly in the top 5, just below Myranda/Talisa/Yara/Hot Pie taking the place of fake Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Well I also don't like Sansa, but it seems plausible.Well duh, it was obvious that you don't like Sansa and that you don't understand a single thing about her or her arc the moment you suggested that her storyline could consist of hanging Freys. What's next? Hey, maybe we can have Jon join the Faceless Men, and Arya could take Margaery's place and start marrying kings, because characters are interchangeable, it is known. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulthosian Stark Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Well duh, it was obvious that you don't like Sansa and that you don't understand a single thing about her or her arc the moment you suggested that her storyline could consist of hanging Freys. What's next? Hey, maybe we can have Jon join the Faceless Men, and Arya could take Margaery's place and start marrying kings, because characters are interchangeable, it is known. :rolleyes:Eh. I wouldn't go so far. Sansa may not be doing the hanging but may be complacent with Littlefinger about it. After all, LF did have a hand in Joff. Why couldn't he take revenge on some Frey's somehow? It probably wouldn't be as direct as hanging knowing LF and if Sansa is really turning into LittleSans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Eh. I wouldn't go so far. Sansa may not be doing the hanging but may be complacent with Littlefinger about it. After all, LF did have a hand in Joff. Why couldn't he take revenge on some Frey's somehow? It probably wouldn't be as direct as hanging knowing LF and if Sansa is really turning into LittleSans Because he doesn't give a damn? LF doesn't care about random Freys, they are not even on his radar. Santa's story is about learning politics and acquiring agency, and she wants to go back to Winterfell. Her story is not about being obsessed with revenge, and it's certainly not about hanging out with BwB and hanging Freys. The whole idea is just ridiculous. You may as well speculate that Bran is going to leave his magical training and take up the sword to go south and fight Lame Lothar one on one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sati Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 This may not be the worst idea ever, but it's certainly in the top 5, just below Myranda/Talisa/Yara/Hot Pie taking the place of fake Arya. Oh I'd say that idea is even worse than Yara thing. The scariest part? I'm not entirely sure the showrunners would see it as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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