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[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick Without Repercussion #2


Lady Fevre Dream

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I think where they went wrong was not showing the scene where she murdered the ravens.

Yes, I think they should have showed her biting their heads off, Ozzy Osbourne style. As it turns out, her favorite song isn't really Florian and Jonquil, but War Pigs.

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"I'm gonna eat every fucking raven in this room."

:lol: Perfect!

Yes, I think they should have showed her biting their heads off, Ozzy Osbourne style. As it turns out, her favorite song isn't really Florian and Jonquil, but War Pigs.

And drinking the blood. She is a vamp, after all.

Here's her song, I'll always think of this now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGPD0ZBiMs0

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mhh, that's kind of Morticia Addams,

She certainly looked a lot more like Morticia than like a scantily clad dominatrix, or a scantily clad anything. I hope they explain in S5 that the dress is supposed to show her allegiance to house Baelish (mockingbird? black outfit like her father uncle) and/or house Arryn (falcon?) in addition to dying her hair for obvious reasons, which would make most actual sense in-universe. (Raven symbolism = cool, but I can't see what her justification for it would be.) Otherwise, the way it was presented without an explanation, the costume, lighting etc. looked heavy-handed and a bit odd and OTT.

Although not so OTT as the reactions. By some of the comments ("a shockingly dark turn" according to EW, etc.), you'd think Sansa had murdered half of Planetos, fucked her way to the throne and become the absolute ruler of Westeros, when all she did was tell a lie at a trial without instruction (as opposed to telling a lie with instruction, as in the book), wear a black dress with feathers and walk through the stairs in a cocky way.

Although I usually find Sansa to be very attractive and as exciting as it may be to watch, I really don't like the show going down this path (her being more sexual). Someone noted that in the books Sansa, unlike Arya, has never really lost her innocence. This was definitely the case on the show in season #3 and for the most part season #4... until the sudden jarring change in her final episode. My main objection to the show writers taking this tack, aside from being reportedly a change from the books, is that we've already seen Dany, Cersei, Shae, Melisandre, Margaery, Osha and Ygritte using their sexuality to get ahead, and so did Olenna when she was young. Sansa's supposed to be different from them and that's the #1 reason that I ranked her as my favourite female character. This would seem to imply that in Westeros and Essos that all attractive young woman have to do this.

Sansa has lost her innocence in the books. It doesn't mean she's lost all of her idealism or morals, but she is not innocent. Only sheltered children can be innocent; Tommen and Myrcella are innocent. None of the young Starks are innocent anymore, they've all learned what the world is like, and innocent people in their position would not survive. Sansa has not killed anyone the way Arya has and does, but she is aware that life is not a song, and she has become an expert liar, it comes to her more and more naturally. She has lied to defend a murderer and condemn a man for a crime he did not commit - now, the man was a rapist who was assisting Lysa in trying to murder her, so I can't blame her, and she still felt guilt for it, but she did it because she is scared and sees LF as her best chance of protection and survival at the moment. (At least in the show, nobody got tortured or put to death for being framed for Lysa's murder.) She also knows that LF has murdered several people, including Dontos and Lysa, and, in the book, she has also heard that he had a hand in Jon Arryn's murder, but has repressed that knowledge; she (in the book) also knows that LF provides boys to Lyn Corbrey to get him on his side, she also knows (both book and show) that he is a master manipulator and liar, and that he has a creepy sexual interest in her that only makes her uncomfortable, and she doesn't trust him, but she's sticking with him in order to survive, as she can, at least, be sure that he wouldn't want her dead or turn her over the Lannisters to be executed. She even admires his "boldness" in being able to ruthlessly lie and manipulate to get what he wants, and wishes she could be more like that, instead of her former self, which she sees as a scared little girl.

So, no, she's not innocent, IMO. As for sexuality, book Sansa is actually a lot more sexual than show Sansa, because book Sansa clearly has her own sexual desires and fantasies, which is something that has not been obvious in the show so far. I can only hope for show!Sansa to become more sexual in that way. As for using sexuality to manipulate, she hasn't done that in a significant way so far, but she did flirt with the hedge knights; and LF openly told her that he expects her to charm Harry into wanting to marry her, and that she would be able to charm many other men and make them fall for her. She's clearly not going to be having sex or stripping down, but flirting and teasing men into thinking they have a chance while keeping them at a safe distance can be very effective, and is a much more likely course of action for a lady of Sansa's position, and for someone who is smart. (Cersei, of course, actually sleeps with people she tries to use, but she is not that smart and certainly not subtle.)

If she can use that to manipulate LF himself, all the better - his creepy interest in her isn't going away, either way. Hopefully show!Sansa will be able to establish stronger boundaries than she can in the books, since she has gained a certain leverage over LF. I do think that she is sort of being manipulative with him in the book, too, by playing more naive than she is and by hiding her real emotions; book!LF thinks she is putty in his hands he can shape into what he wants her to be (which works because she's just 13) - on the show, he may instead be under the impression she would willingly be his partner in crime/politics and that he has a chance to bed/marry her eventually.

It will be awful if they make it seem like Sansa's beauty/attractiveness is all she has and if they focus too much on her "using her sexuality to manipulate LF" or if she starts doing that to everyone, but if it's something she just uses with some people (LF is already perving on her, it makes perfect sense to use that against him) and if that's just one of the many things she's using - alongside her intelligence, intuition, perceptiveness, courtesy, niceness, charm, the ability to tell people the right thing, and, yes, ability to lie and play a role convincingly (which is what we have actually seen her do in season 4, and in previous seasons), then I see no problem with it. After all, Sophie has also said in that same interview that Sansa's strongest weapon are her words, but that statement was not used in the title and didn't grab people's attention the same way.

P.S. How did Ygritte use her sexuality to "get ahead"? On the contrary, the only way she was using her sexuality was to get the guy she wanted and have sex with him because she wanted him and would enjoy sex with him - which is absolutely the right way to "use your sexuality". (Unless you meant she used it to be given head... ;) )

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Well Sansa, although indirectly, does cause all the deaths so far that have happened to the Stark family, as well as their bannermen's too.

In my opinion, most of this is actually Ned's fault. He should have acted against Cersei before Robert died. And, he have should have realized things were going to come down to an armed conflict. Relying on LF to procure troops, was a massive fuck up on his part. I love the guy, but he really fucked up.

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^Indeed. I hope Michelle Clapton doesn't read this thread! I mean, clearly the moment was meant to indicate a shift or change in her but it really WASN'T the "she's evil now, MAAAAAAAAN!" moment some here seem to have seen. Whatevs. Sorry for violating all of your impunity.


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In my opinion, most of this is actually Ned's fault. He should have acted against Cersei before Robert died. And, he have should have realized things were going to come down to an armed conflict. Relying on LF to procure troops, was a massive fuck up on his part. I love the guy, but he really fucked up.

This isn't wrong, I'm just saying her actions had a ton of negative externalities (Begging to be married to Joff, not confirming the truth about Arya & Joff, her running to Cersei which was a flash point for Ned's fucked up "coup," all this leads to her being a hostage, which makes Robb have to continue fighting, etc etc.)

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Imaginary angry books fans' conversation about season 4.



"I hated this season. Why does the show keep ruining my favorite characters?"



"You are right, they really can get the characterizations all wrong."



"You mean like making most of the viewers think that Jaime is a rapist."



"Yeah. And then they don't even address it and keep portraying him a sympathetic guy."



"Well, that was a screw-up. But they really write characters in odd ways.Sometimes they make them do the exact opposite things from what they did in the book!"



"You mean like when they made Sandor beat up and rob that nice farmer who offered him work, a couple of episodes after saying he wasn't a thief and had a code. In the book he worked for a wage until he was told to leave!"



"I didn't like it when he hit Arya, he never did that in the books. And why did they make Brienne act rude, angry and impatient with Pod all the time?"



"I' was more bothered because she was for weeks in King's Landing, free, and didn't even talk to Sansa."



"Well if that bothers you, how about Asha, I mean Yara, sailing all the way from Pyke to save Theon - and then running away from shirtless Ramsay and his dogs?!"



"You're right, that was awful. But it can be worse."



"And Littlefinger looked like an incompetent idiot at his trial".



"I mean, even worse."



"And it's not like I'm a fan of the Thenns or anything, but did they need to be crazed cannibals?"



"Worse...."



"Well, clearly nothing is worse than how they fucked up Jaime with that sept scene. Whatever else they did with other characters can't be compared to the reactions that provoked."



"It can be worse. Look at what they did with Sansa! I don't know who this is, but she is not book Sansa for sure. Sansa is my favorite character, and they have completely ruined her now!"



"Wait, what did she do that was so bad?"



"She wore that terrible, ridiculous dress! Real Sansa would never wear such a dress! Character assassination!!!"



"...... Oh......."

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Imaginary angry books fans' conversation about season 4.

"I hated this season. Why does the show keep ruining my favorite characters?"

"You are right, they really can get the characterizations all wrong."

"You mean like making most of the viewers think that Jaime is a rapist."

"Yeah. And then they don't even address it and keep portraying him a sympathetic guy."

"Well, that was a screw-up. But they really write characters in odd ways.Sometimes they make them do the exact opposite things from what they did in the book!"

"You mean like when they made Sandor beat up and rob that nice farmer who offered him work, a couple of episodes after saying he wasn't a thief and had a code. In the book he worked for a wage until he was told to leave!"

"I didn't like it when he hit Arya, he never did that in the books. And why did they make Brienne act rude, angry and impatient with Pod all the time?"

"I' was more bothered because she was for weeks in King's Landing, free, and didn't even talk to Sansa."

"Well if that bothers you, how about Asha, I mean Yara, sailing all the way from Pyke to save Theon - and then running away from shirtless Ramsay and his dogs?!"

"You're right, that was awful. But it can be worse."

"And Littlefinger looked like an incompetent idiot at his trial".

"I mean, even worse."

"And it's not like I'm a fan of the Thenns or anything, but did they need to be crazed cannibals?"

"Worse...."

"Well, clearly nothing is worse than how they fucked up Jaime with that sept scene. Whatever else they did with other characters can't be compared to the reactions that provoked."

"It can be worse. Look at what they did with Sansa! I don't know who this is, but she is not book Sansa for sure. Sansa is my favorite character, and they have completely ruined her now!"

"Wait, what did she do that was so bad?"

"She wore that terrible, ridiculous dress! Real Sansa would never wear such a dress! Character assassination!!!"

"...... Oh......."

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Priceless!

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[Snipped lots of good stuff...]

That was excellent! In my opinion, you very astutely summed up a great deal of the awfulness that the show has become.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel that the show is continually "dumbed down" and I see Sansa's dress as just another instance of that. That's why I will always ridicule it. I believe some changes made in the show were good and necessary while many more changes in the show have simply been stupid and unnecessary.

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Sansa has lost her innocence in the books.

...

P.S. How did Ygritte use her sexuality to "get ahead"?

Certainly at this point in the books Sansa isn't completely innocent any more, but she still seems pretty innocent by comparison with the other main characters apart from Bran. In the books, she has no alternative but to stick with Littlefinger. A bit of "flirting and teasing" would be ok I guess.

While I always felt that Ygritte's feelings for Jon were genuine, it also seemed like she coerced him into breaking his vows in the first place to prove that he was with the wildlings and increased the chance that he would stay with them instead of remaining loyal to the Night's Watch (although ultimately that didn't work).

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel that the show is continually "dumbed down" and I see Sansa's dress as just another instance of that. That's why I will always ridicule it. I believe some changes made in the show were good and necessary while many more changes in the show have simply been stupid and unnecessary.

It is ridiculous. It's about the scene, hence the common reaction, Darth Sansa, Evil Queen, Maleficent, etc. The showrunners said Sansa is going to use what Littlefinger wants - a sexual relationship - against him. The actor said she is going to use her sexuality to manipulate him. And they cut most of her story, where she explored her own sexuality, and he's a brothel owner, who trains women to use their sexuality to manipulate men (remember this?), and yes, it's ridiculous. Elio said he was "baffled" and Linda said "which Sansa are we going to see" and they both laughed for 5 solid minutes in two separate reviews, because it's ridiculous. That's why we are all laughing. It's funny, in a sad sort of way.

Also, this is nitpicking without repercussion. This is where we talk about ridiculous stuff. And no one says how wrong we are for doing so. Shall we go... back to that.

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It is ridiculous. It's about the scene, hence the common reaction, Darth Sansa, Evil Queen, Maleficent, etc. The showrunners said Sansa is going to use what Littlefinger wants - a sexual relationship - against him. The actor said said she is going to use her sexuality to manipulate him. And they cut most of her story, where she explored her own sexuality, and he's a brothel owner, who trains women to use their sexuality to manipulate men (remember this?), and yes, it's ridiculous. Elio said he was "baffled" and Linda said "which Sansa are we going to see" and they both laughed for 5 solid minutes in two separate reviews, because it's ridiculous. That's why we are all laughing. It's funny, in a sad sort of way.

Also, this is nitpicking without repercussion. This is where we talk about ridiculous stuff. And no one says how wrong we are for doing so. Shall we go... back to that.

Also, it isn't just about her fashion choices. I can barely match my socks, so I would be the last person to try to give a serious critique of what somebody wears.
There were other things I didn't like as well. Like the way they made her look like "Muhammad Ali" Sansa when she smacked Sweet Robin, when he accidently damaged the snow castle. I just don't see Sansa belting somebody over an accident. Also, her first kiss with LF, on the show, looked a little screwey too.
Of course she isn't the only character they have screwed over a bit. It's been rightly pointed out that they have mangled other characters as well. Still, I just think her character has gotten the shaft perhaps a little more than others.
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