The Gods Eye Conspiracy - Part I

[Rhaegar's Lover]

I never realized the TOJ was located in Dorne. Mind blown. Always did wonder how rhaegar, travelling with lyanna and the KG were able to make it to the TOJ with no one seeing them.I mean it took Ned almost 9 months to find her, in Dorne of all places.

someone like rhaegar would be hard to not notice especially to peasants and locals. Even if they had taken a ship, the ship eventually has to pull into a port. I think someone would have remembered seeinf rhaegar, especially in Dorne.

especially after he insulted their princess. someone would have talked and word eventaully would have reach Doran and Oberyn. Hmmmm

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

Very interesting stuff. I'm not sure that there is much of a maester faction that really takes the 'higher mysteries' very seriously, but if there is one, Marwyn's in it, and he's an important guy. I'd be interested in reading more about how the Citadel was founded, and by whom, but we don't really know that.

A lot of people on this thread seem to be getting interested in the age gap problem with the Lothstons and Ser Illifer. Here's how that works: If Great Great Gramps was 63, Great Gramps was 48, Gramps was 32, Dad was 16, and Ser Illifer was just being born at the time that Great-Great Gramps (healthy old dude) was out soldiering (as Illifer is, kinda, himself at nearly the same age), then quite possibly Great Great Gramps could have had a few more years of life left, enough to make an impression on a child and tell some stories. This does make Ben Blackthumb pretty damn old, though.

[Archmaester Drew]

Very interesting stuff! Great OP and thread! :cheers:

Lots to think about... :)

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Mitbert & Everyone,

I think this theory is spot on however, I haven't seen any updates from TWOIAF. I'd like to move the discussion forward with support for the the Hightower and Citadel's link to the Gods Eye.

I believe TWOIAF is showing ties to the Hightowers and the Isle of Faces:

First, in ASOIAF, we learn that the Citadel was not founded by the Andals, but rather it is an institution founded by The First Men:

"Thousands of years before the first sept opened its doors, the city had been home to the Citadel, where boys and young men from all over Westeros came to study, learn, and forge their chains as maesters. No greater seat of knowledge exists anywhere in the world."--Oldtown Chapter

AWOIAF also has some peculiar descriptions of a famous early First Men progenitor, Garth the Greenhand.

"There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.)"

Now lets take a look at the similar description of the Green Men on the Isle of Faces:

"Whether the green men still survive on their isle is not clear although there is the occasional account of some foolhardy young riverlord taking a boat to the isle and catching sight of them before winds rise up or a flock of ravens drives him away. The nursery tales claiming that they are horned and have dark, green skin is a corruption of the likely truth, which is that the green men wore green garments and horned headdresses."

Bran also also specifies the horns as antlers when speaking to Meera about the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

• “Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces,” said Bran. “Was he green?” In Old Nan’s stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn’t see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. “I bet the old gods sent him.” “Perhaps they did..."
  

Now, House Hightower is an ancient First Men house of The Reach who also descend from Garth the Greenhand. AND There was also something called "The Order of the Greenhand" which appears to be an Andal tradition BUT the Tyrells were not part of this order which is oddly interesting:

• "The greatest champions, men as pure and honorable and virtuous as they were skilled at arms, were honored with invitations to join the Order of the Green Hand. Though the last members of that noble order perished beside their king on the Field of Fire (save in White Harbor, where the knights of House Manderly still profess membership), their traditions are still remembered in the Reach, where the Tyrells continue to uphold all that is best in knighthood and chivalry."
  

While the House Manderly is the only house to claim coming from this order, House Manderly was blacklisted from The Reach nine-hundred years prior.

• "Twas no more than nine hundred years ago when they came north, laden down with all their gold and gods. They’d been great lords on the Mander until they overreached themselves and the green hands slapped them down."--Lord Godric to Davos (p.s. I had always thought the daughter of Mandery with the dyed green hair had something to do with Tyrosh or mermaids, but the description of her is right before the maester announces Lord Manderly with the title of the order of the green hand.)
  

Now lets take a look at a possible survivor of this old order who did not perish in the Field of Fire.

• "Lord Hightower determined that he would not oppose the Conqueror by force of arms. Thus it was that no men from Oldtown burned on the Field of Fire, though the Hightowers were bannermen to the Gardeners of Highgarden. And thus it was that Lord Manfred rode forth to greet Aegon the Dragon as he approached, and to offer up his sword, his city, and his oath."
  

This is what I have for today, what are your thoughts?

March 18, 1999

Fascinating. Please continue!

remember that quote is from before asos was published, where the kotlt story appears and the isle of faces is featured heavily

Definitely onto something here but like others said we need more to tie the Green Men/Old Gods portion into the rest of it. Btw I think there's

Silverwing didn't die in the Dance, though...

Indeed continue because I don't fully understand what you are saying about "God's Eye Conspiracy" You have laid out a lot of facts and

The title needs [TRP Spoilers].

The theory, as I understand it right now, is that the Green Men worked with/through various operatives to eliminate the Dragons.

Lannisters and Tullys have weir woods in their godswoods? Where was that stated? I know they have godswoods, but I don't recall them

No. They weren't at the Trident because they were given a different task. Dayne was Rhaegar's sworn shield and I think Whent was

This is a very well presented argument and one of the best theories I've read on these boards in some time. There;s a lot to get my head

Mitbert,

Wow what a link! I haven't even gotten to your theory! I love this interview. Highlights:

In regards to the Whent name coming from a bastard just re read how i said it i ment a bastard borns child who was not bastard born say a

Interesting theory, though I think a lot of it is rather vague as to motive, and I don't see a lot of support for the kind of foresight (knowledge of

Further up thread the point is raised that Rhaegar is steeped in prophesy and interested in playing his part. It's also mentioned that the 3KG

Great theory! Looks plausible to me!

Great job in putting so many things together, but I fear your premise is a bit muddled or I didn't get it. You have not explained how Order of

What a fun read! I can't wait for updates/additions. I also want to compliment the OP and all commenters on the civility of the

This entire board has reinstated my faith in these forums. Not completely sold, but this is amazing work.

[Sanset]

It is a very interesting thread. House Manderly history to the new light of the World book and The Order of the Green Hand (which I don't really know what its purpose is) reminded me of what Maester Aemon said to Sam in AFfC (Ch.26) «Fire consumes, but cold preserves.»

I found very curious that the three eyed crow had the same name of the Blackfish, it was the other way around, but we readers knew the Blackfish first. Besides it looks like there was a plan to make Bran to go Beyond the Wall. Jojen said: «My task was to get you here.» (ADwD,34) And Bloodraven said: «(...) I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.» (ADwD,13) It is also curious that Aemon pointed out the same "late" issue:

«"Aemon said the Citadel must send her a maester at once, to bring her home to Westeros before it is too late."» (AFfC, last chapter)

«"You were born too late for dragons, lad," Armen the Acolyte told Roone.» (AFfC, prologue)

«"The hour is late, but the need is urgent."» (Ser Barristan, ADwD, The Kingbreaker)

I think there was a conspiracy to wipe out the dragons, but as we also know, there has been those that were trying to bring the dragons back. And some dragons have been biting their own tails by themselves without any help from outsiders. As Varys said: «This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was.» (AGoT,32) He was talking about conjunctural issues, but if he is a true dragon, it is very probable that he also has a double meaning and he also might have been referring to more transcendental affairs.

I think the theory is awesome, but as always, we lack of information, like who is Marwyn and what is his tradition in this game of back and forth with pro-dragons and anti-dragons. Or dragonslayers that can be slay.

«"Dragons die." (...) "But so do dragonslayers."» (ACoK,27)

ETA: By the way, there has been some comments about the KG's vows to obey and keep the king's secrets. I think there must be a difference (a substantial one) between the KG and slaves. Being a KG must not be an affront to the the human dignity. The dignity of the knights (no slaves) and of the king (nor slaver). So, I think that if the king is obviously and undeniably crazy and dangerous there must be a way out to solve the problem, because they are not the king's slaves, so this obedience has to have limits. And even if the obey and keep secrets, the also must protect the king, particularly if he's a nutcase that is hurting himself and everyone around him, and of course, the kingdom.

[J. Stargaryen]

The Order of the Green Hand is an order of highly chivalric knights. It sounds like it might be the Reach's version of the Order of the Garter, or something along those lines.

The greatest champions, men as pure and honorable and virtuous as they were skilled at arms, were honored with invitations to join the Order of the Green Hand. - TWoIaF

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I guess we shall see :)

However let's take a look at GRRM's influence for Garth the Greenhand:

As we have already seen, Garth the Greenhand (although there are multiple depictions) has been depicted at times as a green man, or an antlered man. The Game of Thrones Appendix also notes that he “wore a crown of vines and flowers”. It is also noted in TWOIAF that some argue he is more a God than a man who may have preceded the coming of the First Men. Garth the Greenhand is associated with fertility, nature, and virility.

Now let’s take a look at the Wiccan/Pagan God Cernnunos:

Quote

"Cernnunos, a nature and fertility god. He is perhaps best known to us now in his Celtic aspects of the untamed Horned God of the Animals and the leaf-covered Green Man, Guardian of the Green World."

"Cernnunos, as The Horned God, Lord of the Animals is portrayed as human or half human with an antler crown. Though he wears a human face his energy and his concerns are non-human. While He is recognized most often through his connection to animals, Cernnunos is also a tree, forest, and vegetation god in his foliate aspect of The Green Man, Guardian of the Green World." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos

Although Cernnunos has not been depicted with crowns of vines or flowers, he is frequently depicted with a crown of the Ivy plant.

A Pagan/Wiccan holiday closely associated with Cernnunos is Beltane.

Quote

"Today's Pagans and Wiccans celebrate Beltane much like their ancestors did. A Beltane ritual usually involves lots of fertility symbols"

"In some Wiccan traditions, Beltane is a day in which the May Queen and the Queen of Winter battle one another for supremacy." (some Battle for the Dawn parallels maybe?)

"Beltane is a time for planting and sowing of seeds -- again, the fertility theme appears. Certain trees are associated with May Day, such as the Ash, Oak and Hawthorn. In Norse legend, the god Odin hung from an Ash tree for nine days, and it later became known as the World Tree, Yggdrasil." http://paganwiccan.a...ane_History.htm

Now there is a specific historical sect of Wicca (who were HUGE Cernnunos followers) which is called “Gardnerian Wicca” named after the founder Gerald Gardner. (please do not forget that we have a Gerold Hightower and a Gerold Dayne in the series, both of whom are from houses theorized in the Gods Eye Conspiracy Theory AND the fact that a now extinct house which was closely tied to Garth was House Gardner)

It is in the teachings of Garnderian Wicca where I feel the motives lay for the extinction of Dragons and Magic. The Maesters/Hightowers/Green Men believed that magic and dragons were being used irresponsibly. I have seen a great deal of discussion in the forums about magic, conquest, and ethics, and even liken the ethics of dragons to the ethics of atomic weapons. Look at the views of the Gardnerian Wiccans and also the similarities of the citadel to the Bricket Wood coven:

Quote

"In Gardnerian Wicca, these tradition-specific teachings demand thought before action, especially magical action (spell work). An individual or a coven uses these guidelines to consider beforehand what the possible ramifications may be of any working. Given these two ethical core principles, Gardnerian Wicca hold themselves to a high ethical standard. For example, Gardnerian High Priestess Eleanor Bone was not only a respected elder in the tradition, but also a matron of a nursing home. Moreover, the Bricket Wood coven today is well known for its many members from academic or intellectual backgrounds, who contribute to the preservation of Wiccan knowledge." http://en.wikipedia....ardnerian_Wicca

Another rule of Gardnerian Wicca is to seek counsel before action, the second rule is to do as one wills. Meaning that knowledge should be gained before taking action.

The Order of the Green Hand is an order of highly chivalric knights. It sounds like it might be the Reach's version of the Order of the Garter, or something along those lines.

It is a very interesting thread. House Manderly history to the new light of the World book and The Order of the Green Hand (which I don't really know what its purpose is) reminded me of what Maester Aemon said to Sam in AFfC (Ch.26) «Fire consumes, but cold preserves.»

I found very curious that the three eyed crow had the same name of the Blackfish, it was the other way around, but we readers knew the Blackfish first. Besides it looks like there was a plan to make Bran to go Beyond the Wall. Jojen said: «My task was to get you here.» (ADwD,34) And Bloodraven said: «(...) I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.» (ADwD,13) It is also curious that Aemon pointed out the same "late" issue:

«"Aemon said the Citadel must send her a maester at once, to bring her home to Westeros before it is too late."» (AFfC, last chapter)

«"You were born too late for dragons, lad," Armen the Acolyte told Roone.» (AFfC, prologue)

«"The hour is late, but the need is urgent."» (Ser Barristan, ADwD, The Kingbreaker)


I think there was a conspiracy to wipe out the dragons, but as we also know, there has been those that were trying to bring the dragons back. And some dragons have been biting their own tails by themselves without any help from outsiders. As Varys said: «This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was.» (AGoT,32) He was talking about conjunctural issues, but if he is a true dragon, it is very probable that he also has a double meaning and he also might have been referring to more transcendental affairs.

I think the theory is awesome, but as always, we lack of information, like who is Marwyn and what is his tradition in this game of back and forth with pro-dragons and anti-dragons. Or dragonslayers that can be slay.
«"Dragons die." (...) "But so do dragonslayers."» (ACoK,27)


ETA: By the way, there has been some comments about the KG's vows to obey and keep the king's secrets. I think there must be a difference (a substantial one) between the KG and slaves. Being a KG must not be an affront to the the human dignity. The dignity of the knights (no slaves) and of the king (nor slaver). So, I think that if the king is obviously and undeniably crazy and dangerous there must be a way out to solve the problem, because they are not the king's slaves, so this obedience has to have limits. And even if the obey and keep secrets, the also must protect the king, particularly if he's a nutcase that is hurting himself and everyone around him, and of course, the kingdom.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Also, Jenny of Oldstones is a player in TGECT and in her description it states she "wove flowers in her hair" similar to how Garth the Greenhand is sometimes portrayed.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

The Order of the Green Hand is an order of highly chivalric knights. It sounds like it might be the Reach's version of the Order of the Garter, or something along those lines.

ALSO, Gerald Gardner and Algernon Blackwood are two names that are heavily linked to the 20th century paganism movement.

Gerald Garnder's coven also had ties to or was influenced by the following three orders:

• Order of the Golden Dawn- very big into the four classical elements of air water earth and fire the orders and grades of its members relate to positions on the tree of life.

• Order of Woodcraft Chivalry- also very big into the four elements with more natural and nature study

Rosicrucian Order-this order was said to consist of no more than eight members, each a doctor and a sworn bachelor. (hmmm.... intellectual scholars who are all healers and sworn to remain unmarried)

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I also has some commentary on a similar topic related to the Green Men and the Selkies which I would like to share: I had previous suspicions that the Wildlings descended from races more ancient than the first men and posted a topic which undertook some serious edits after TWOIAF was published.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116518-the-walrus-men-origins-of-the-wildlings/

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

This post is amazing.

[Modesty Lannister]

Mitbert & Everyone,

I am reading TWOIAF as we speak, so I will contribute when I'm done. Thanks for continuing the thread.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Lannisters and Tullys have weir woods in their godswoods? Where was that stated? I know they have godswoods, but I don't recall them mentioning a weir wood in either.

Jaime brings it up in AFFC. He says the Stone Garden's heart tree is a tenth the size of the Blackwoods.

[weirwoodgroves]

I cannot believe I'm the first one to bring this up, but how might you suppose Littlefinger plays into this? House Baelish is an extremely young house that somehow jumped themselves to the forefront of the political games and gained control of Harrenhal (at least on paper). There's also the fact that he was fostered by the Tullys, was in love with Cat and loved by Lysa (the women who have the blood of House Whent running through them)....and yet, he doesn't seem to be playing by any of the other rules. He follows the pattern, except his family is descended from Braavosi, if I'm remembering correctly. So how could House Baelish, new Lords of Harrenhal, play into your theory, and what might this mean for the future?

As far as I can tell, that seemed to be the only glaring hole in your theory. I'm sure the conspiracy is all well and important, but the way you've set it up, it didn't simply drop off the map after Robert's Rebellion. I know there's a tendency to focus on the history in these forums, but this theory you've proposed seems to hold too many implications for the future for me not to ask.

[Connartist92]

Is there still a Part 3 coming in this thread? I really like this theory, and would love to read more! You really did you research and thought it all out.

Like the poster above me said, I'd love to see more on how it relates to the present, and if you think Littlefinger is at all involved. Part of me thinks he was supposed to be, but it didn't work out. He did get Lysa with child, but she was made to abort by her father Lord Hoster Tully. I wonder if that child was supposed to play a part.

But on the other hand, has Littlefinger actually even been to Harrenhal? He's definitely never stayed there for any extended period of time. Hmm, that might just add more to my idea that the plans for him aren't working out as the weirnet wanted.. I'd love to hear from OP on this!