The Gods Eye Conspiracy - Part I

[J. Stargaryen]

But, again, Jon was not the heir to anything when the 3 KG headed south. He wasn't the current king, and he wasn't the first in line after the current king, or the second in line! Rhaegar was the first in line, followed by Aegon (born in 282, while Jon was born in 283). And if Rhaegar died before Aerys, as would ultimately be the case, Viserys would be the rightful heir. At no point during or around the events occuring at the ToJ was Jon the rightful heir, even assuming he was legitimate (my understanding is that this is a very popular theory).

Doesn't matter. Those KG were ordered by Rhaegar to guard Lyanna, who was most likely his wife, and was definitely pregnant with his child. There were other KG available to guard the king. Again, it's not a matter of the order of succession.

Incorrect. Rhaegar's sons come before Viserys in the succession.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Doesn't matter. Those KG were ordered by Rhaegar to guard Lyanna, who was most likely his wife, and was definitely pregnant with his child. There were other KG available to guard the king. Again, it's not a matter of the order of succession.

Incorrect. Rhaegar's sons come before Viserys in the succession.

[Edit: removed. My initial point here appears to be wrong... live and learn.]

Regarding Rhaegar's orders, Aerys was the King, and his orders were to get (and presumably protect) Rhaegar. If Rhaegar has other plans in mind, that's fine, but the KG obey Aerys first.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

In regards to the Whent name coming from a bastard just re read how i said it i ment a bastard borns child who was not bastard born say a Lothston bastard son Whently Rivers marries Serra Blackwood there child Whentley is not a bastard so he changes his surname. Maybe his father is never legitimized but is given the lands because he is a loyal soldier to the crown but his fathers family is exiled so he shortens the name up to Whent. This was done with Jon Waters descendant who eventually became Rennifer Longwaters because they were true born and noble and did not need to carry a bastard name. Lannister came from Lan the clever, Karlan Stark created the house Karstark etc. i GOT THE IDEA OF THIS FROM THE GAME CRUSADER KINGS 2 MOD cause thats how they recognize it.

On the Jon Snow being the heir thing ! Succession goes to any trueborn son of Rhaegars before it goes to Viserys regardless who dies first Aerys or Rhaegar so as long as Lyanna was wearing a white gown covered in gore for marriage purposes then Jon is the heir and not a bastard the crown makes their own rules.

On the KG it is my belief that Dayne was tired of Aerys raping and abusing his wife, i think he then told Rhaegar what was happening to his mother and Rhaegar was not happy. Lastly i think Varys told Aerys that Dayne told Rhaegar stuff and that Rhaegar may be planning to usurp him and they were gonna try to get allies at the Whent's Harrenhal tourney. So out of speight Aerys goes to the tourney and rapes Ashara Dayne to get back at her brother for betraying him. This word spreads and puts shame to the whole tournament pissing off the Whent's and the KG. Rhaegar and Whent now feel responsible for Arthur Dayne's sister as do the Starks cause she went to them for help and they could not help her. Rhaegar knows this and after he falls in love with lyanna he is still plotting so he thinks if he marries her the Starks and their army will have his back for sure but it all backfires.

Rhaegar is now king in the eyes of Whent and Arthur Dayne maybe even Gerold Hightower so when he commands them to watch over his new bride and heir they do. He also commands Jamie to watch over his wife and children and says when he gets back things will change for the better, he thinks that the castle will protect them from the rebellion and that Jamie will protect them from Aerys moving them is not an option he takes the gamble that his father does not suspect his plans or care at this time.

Again Viserys comes after any trueborn children of Rhaegar regardless of who dies first Rhaegar or Aerys.

[J. Stargaryen]

[Edit: removed. My initial point here appears to be wrong... live and learn.]

Regarding Rhaegar's orders, Aerys was the King, and his orders were to get (and presumably protect) Rhaegar. If Rhaegar has other plans in mind, that's fine, but the KG obey Aerys first.

And which order from Aerys are the ToJ KG disobeying?

[mushroomshirt]

March 18, 1999

Wow what a link! I haven't even gotten to your theory! I love this interview. Highlights:

1) Six books only. In all caps no less: " But IT ENDS THERE! SIX! SIX! SIX!"

2) No Lady Greyjoy? Funny that we did end up seeing her in feast

3) 5 year gap alive and well

4) Again in all caps: " TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE!"

5) Linda (who I'm guessing is Westeros.org Linda) gets the prescient quote from GRRM: " (Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys.)"

6) PS where is Elio? :)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Interesting theory, though I think a lot of it is rather vague as to motive, and I don't see a lot of support for the kind of foresight (knowledge of future) that would be required by various parties in order to bring something like this to fruition.

Re: Ben Blackthumb's age - I think you can basically cut your estimate in half, and maybe more. A generation in Westeros amounts to approximately 13 yrs - as that's the age children are recognized as fully grown (marriageable, etc.). So 4 generations' time (i.e., the number of generations between a boy and his great great grandparent) could imply as few as 52 years total.

The most intriguing piece of this conspiracy, to me, is one you haven't fully developed - and that's the mystery behind Archmaester Walgrave. You can find more of my thoughts on Walgrave at the end of that thread you linked to - but the TLDR is that Walgrave himself is very old (possibly as old as you thought Ben Blackthumb might be), and he is quite likely a skinchanger of ravens. In other words, "Walgrave" ~ "Warg" + "Rave". He looks very much like a southern counterpart to Bloodraven, without the weirwood hardwiring... and certain bits of his description echo those we read with respect to other skinchangers (wanting his ravens to eat him when he dies, for instance, just as Varamyr wanted his wolves to eat him after his death). There is even a suggestion that he may be glamoured. As I've said elsewhere, I do expect we'll read more about Archmaester Walgrave in coming books...

.

[WeaselPie]

But, again, Jon was not the heir to anything when the 3 KG headed south.

As noted, he wasn't even born yet. The KG would have had no way to know if an unborn baby would be born healthy, or even male.

Even Ned knew that Viserys was the heir after Aerys, Rhaegar and (supposedly) Aegon were dead. So the KG just hung around waiting to see if the baby was male? I think not.

So, you bring up some great points. Not convinced of the whole conspiracy, but it's pretty obvious the Hightowers are up to something. Author made it clear about Walys Flowers already.

[Emilia Stark]

Further up thread the point is raised that Rhaegar is steeped in prophesy and interested in playing his part. It's also mentioned that the 3KG and R probably recognized that the unborn child's (Jon's) role in the prophecy as the 3rd dragon rider/3rd head transcends his or her status in the order of succession. In Dany's vision in the HotU, R is holding Aegon and says to Elia that there must be a 3rd, not there must be another *son*. Also, given that he already had a son, the gender of the 3rd or their status as possible heir didn't matter so much as their being alive safe and healthy-- of course with the mortality rate in Westerose being what it is, multiple options for male heirs would be preferable, but regardless of the gender of the 3rd child R believed all three of his children must be protected at all costs to enable them to fulfill the prophecy, and he (mistakenly) thought the other two were safe in the Red Keep. At this point he'd turned his world upside down: spurned his wife, kidnapped a second wife, shacked up in the ToJ for months, started a war... considering how much he'd risked and invested at this point, it almost seems foolish that there were ONLY 3KG protecting his precious 3rd child and L; I understand the need for secrecy and discretion, but surely the Heir Apparent of the 7K had other resources at his disposal.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

FYI, I plan on making significant changes to this theory based on input and further reflection. To summarize anticipated changes:

(1) I plan to make the grand purpose clearer up front rather than back loading it, and I will reformulate it a bit. To that end, my existing hypothesis is: Certain families, institutions, and groups remember the Pact on the Isle of Faces and have been abiding by that ancient Pact. The Hightowers, the Daynes, the lords of Harrenhal (Strongs, Whents, and Lothstons), a faction of the Citadel (probably not the entire institution), Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven), and the children aligned with Brynden and whoever his predecessor greenseers may have been, are almost certainly parties to the Pact. Other ancient houses with ties to the First Men may be parties to the Pact or may have once been parties, including the Royces and possibly the Westerlings, although I can't substantiate this with much more than speculation. The Crannogmen are a bit of a wild card here. They are almost certainly tied to the children one way or another, but GRRM hasn't given us much meat to go on those bones.

(2) Effectuating the Pact means: Protecting the few remaining wild lands from mankind and the forces of fire (generally associated with the human invaders of Westeros), protecting humanity from the Others and the forces of ice, and minimizing the destruction of weirwoods. Generally, this requires balancing the forces of fire and ice in Westeros.

(3) Eliminating the dragons to weaken the forces of fire was one of the goals of the Pact prior to and during the Dance of the Dragons. The children may have been particularly alarmed by the dragons if/when Jaehaerys I took dragons north of the wall to destroy giants, wargs, and wildlings (unclear whether this is legend or truth); Otto Hightower became Jaehaerys I's hand during the end of his rein, and the succession crisis that led to the DoD was put into motion during the ensuing years. The Hightowers and Strongs both played a role in precipitating the DoD. Indeed, their actions were sometimes incomprehensibly stupid (and out of character) unless we accept that they were trying to start a succession crisis that would set the dragons against one another. The maesters likely finished the dragons off (and they get all the credit for it despite the excellent work done by Otto, Lionel, Larys and other members of their Houses).

(4) Finding a successor to Brynden has been another goal. Notably, Bran's lineage traces through the female line of the Whents, and the marriage of his mother and father was made possible by a Maester with a Hightower blood and likely connections to the Citadel's Archmaester most associated with Ravencraft (and therefore likely the closest Archmaester to the Citadel's wierwood and ravens).

(5) Some humans and children seem intent on breaking the Pact and reigniting ancient wars. The Andal invasion clearly broke the peace, and the children tried to retaliate while also preserving their northern allies by breaking the neck (obviously a failure) and holding back the Andals at Moat Cailin (somwhat more succesful after the hammer of the waters flooed the region). Hardhome likely broke the peace by converting ancient forests north of the Wall into the cities of men; retaliation there appears to have been a success. I strongly supect that the Others are a faction of child-like creatures opposed to the Brynden faction who either view the Pact as entirely defunct (due to the acts of men) or would seek to break it and reassert the hegemony of the ancient, wild creatures. It's possible that the Others were symbollically throwing down the gauntlet when they killed Waymar Royce. Whether or not the Royces still "Remember" the pact, their lineage would likely trace back to the pact, and their words suggest that their house has traditionally been associated with some sort of ancient agreement or event. I would not be surprised if their bronze armor turned out to be useless against humans but magically warded against the Others. Perhaps the Others' mocking words for Waymar Royce had something to do with his vulnerability without the bronze armor. Lots of speculation here, but isn't that why you're reading this crackpot theory?

(6) The collective memory of the Children is probably much greater than the memory of man. The Children hold their memories within the weirwoods themselves, and singers leave something behind in warged animals. There is an interesting continuity between life and death for the children; they pass from the world of the living to their lives as semi-material beings within animals and trees (particularly the weirwood). As such, the destruction of weirwoods is likely viewed by them as much more traumatic than the mere destruction of religious symbols. I wonder whether there is a relationship between dead weirwoods and the Others: pale, undying, bloodless, hardened by time rather than decaying. They may be both a symbol of the strife between man and child as well ats its physical manifestation.

(7) I have my opinions about the legitimacy of Jon (I'm not convinced), but it honestly doesn't matter to this theory, so I might as well stay out of it.

(8) I'm convinced that Rhaeggar was probably in on the Pact or at least partially aware due, in part, to his obsession with prophecies, extensive interest in books, and close relationship with Ser Arthur Dayne.

(9) The Daynes are extremely good candidates for descendants of Last Hero.

(10) Jon will play a critical role in balancing the forces of Ice and Fire and to protect the realm from the Others. The events leading up to and including the confrontation at the ToJ were critical in reaffirming the Pact.

(11) Jojen paste...mwah, hah, hah. Ok, I won't get into Jojen paste.

[Zoravar Singh]

Great theory! Looks plausible to me!

P.S.- I read TPATQ and The Rogue Prince just so I could go through this whole theory without getting spoilers.

[Modesty Lannister]

Great job in putting so many things together, but I fear your premise is a bit muddled or I didn't get it. You have not explained how Order of Green Men can be linked to the Citadel, Hightowers and Whents. FIrst of all, the Citadel opposes magic and although it deals with raven-breeding and training, many knowledge that CotF have when it comes to the ravens has been lost to the maesters. Secondly, why would Whents and Hightowers want to destroy Targaryens? You haven't explained this. The Citadel is against magic per se. Why would it side with Green Men?

[Modesty Lannister]

FYI, I plan on making significant changes to this theory based on input and further reflection. To summarize anticipated changes:

(1) I plan to make the grand purpose clearer up front rather than back loading it, and I will reformulate it a bit. To that end, my existing hypothesis is: Certain families, institutions, and groups remember the Pact on the Isle of Faces and have been abiding by that ancient Pact. The Hightowers, the Daynes, the lords of Harrenhal (Strongs, Whents, and Lothstons), a faction of the Citadel (probably not the entire institution), Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven), and the children aligned with Brynden and whoever his predecessor greenseers may have been, are almost certainly parties to the Pact. Other ancient houses with ties to the First Men may be parties to the Pact or may have once been parties, including the Royces and possibly the Westerlings, although I can't substantiate this with much more than speculation. The Crannogmen are a bit of a wild card here. They are almost certainly tied to the children one way or another, but GRRM hasn't given us much meat to go on those bones.

(2) Effectuating the Pact means: Protecting the few remaining wild lands from mankind and the forces of fire (generally associated with the human invaders of Westeros), protecting humanity from the Others and the forces of ice, and minimizing the destruction of weirwoods. Generally, this requires balancing the forces of fire and ice in Westeros.

(3) Eliminating the dragons to weaken the forces of fire was one of the goals of the Pact prior to and during the Dance of the Dragons. The children may have been particularly alarmed by the dragons if/when Jaehaerys I took dragons north of the wall to destroy giants, wargs, and wildlings (unclear whether this is legend or truth); Otto Hightower became Jaehaerys I's hand during the end of his rein, and the succession crisis that led to the DoD was put into motion during the ensuing years. The Hightowers and Strongs both played a role in precipitating the DoD. Indeed, their actions were sometimes incomprehensibly stupid (and out of character) unless we accept that they were trying to start a succession crisis that would set the dragons against one another. The maesters likely finished the dragons off (and they get all the credit for it despite the excellent work done by Otto, Lionel, Larys and other members of their Houses).

(4) Finding a successor to Brynden has been another goal. Notably, Bran's lineage traces through the female line of the Whents, and the marriage of his mother and father was made possible by a Maester with a Hightower blood and likely connections to the Citadel's Archmaester most associated with Ravencraft (and therefore likely the closest Archmaester to the Citadel's wierwood and ravens).

(5) Some humans and children seem intent on breaking the Pact and reigniting ancient wars. The Andal invasion clearly broke the peace, and the children tried to retaliate while also preserving their northern allies by breaking the neck (obviously a failure) and holding back the Andals at Moat Cailin (somwhat more succesful after the hammer of the waters flooed the region). Hardhome likely broke the peace by converting ancient forests north of the Wall into the cities of men; retaliation there appears to have been a success. I strongly supect that the Others are a faction of child-like creatures opposed to the Brynden faction who either view the Pact as entirely defunct (due to the acts of men) or would seek to break it and reassert the hegemony of the ancient, wild creatures. It's possible that the Others were symbollically throwing down the gauntlet when they killed Waymar Royce. Whether or not the Royces still "Remember" the pact, their lineage would likely trace back to the pact, and their words suggest that their house has traditionally been associated with some sort of ancient agreement or event. I would not be surprised if their bronze armor turned out to be useless against humans but magically warded against the Others. Perhaps the Others' mocking words for Waymar Royce had something to do with his vulnerability without the bronze armor. Lots of speculation here, but isn't that why you're reading this crackpot theory?

(6) The collective memory of the Children is probably much greater than the memory of man. The Children hold their memories within the weirwoods themselves, and singers leave something behind in warged animals. There is an interesting continuity between life and death for the children; they pass from the world of the living to their lives as semi-material beings within animals and trees (particularly the weirwood). As such, the destruction of weirwoods is likely viewed by them as much more traumatic than the mere destruction of religious symbols. I wonder whether there is a relationship between dead weirwoods and the Others: pale, undying, bloodless, hardened by time rather than decaying. They may be both a symbol of the strife between man and child as well ats its physical manifestation.

(7) I have my opinions about the legitimacy of Jon (I'm not convinced), but it honestly doesn't matter to this theory, so I might as well stay out of it.

(8) I'm convinced that Rhaeggar was probably in on the Pact or at least partially aware due, in part, to his obsession with prophecies, extensive interest in books, and close relationship with Ser Arthur Dayne.

(9) The Daynes are extremely good candidates for descendants of Last Hero.

(10) Jon will play a critical role in balancing the forces of Ice and Fire and to protect the realm from the Others. The events leading up to and including the confrontation at the ToJ were critical in reaffirming the Pact.

(11) Jojen paste...mwah, hah, hah. Ok, I won't get into Jojen paste.

I think you miss one important thing in that pact - We swear by ice and fire. So, fire is also a part of that pact. So is Bloodraven who is part FM, part Targaryen. Why would he be accepted by CotF with that blood if fire was excluded? So, I would oppose your premise. The pact is about natural balance, but the Citadel is the enemy of the pact, not it's ally. Rogue masters like Marwin are into the pact. Aemon as well. But, the mainstream Citadel opposes magic and had it's hand in the destruction of dragons as you showed yourself. Maester Luwin does his utmost to crush Bran's ideas about magic and three-eyed raven. So, I'd go back to reworking the theory. I admire your work, but I think you should take a step back and sort out the motives first.

[Lone Stark State]

What a fun read! I can't wait for updates/additions. I also want to compliment the OP and all commenters on the civility of the give-and-take of opinions, interpretations, and facts. Threads are so much more enjoyable when all participants treat the topics as open-ended, reciprocal sharing of our love for ASOIAF rather than dogma to be defended to the death. Well done everyone! :cheers:

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Great job in putting so many things together, but I fear your premise is a bit muddled or I didn't get it. You have not explained how Order of Green Men can be linked to the Citadel, Hightowers and Whents. FIrst of all, the Citadel opposes magic and although it deals with raven-breeding and training, many knowledge that CotF have when it comes to the ravens has been lost to the maesters. Secondly, why would Whents and Hightowers want to destroy Targaryens? You haven't explained this. The Citadel is against magic per se. Why would it side with Green Men?

I've never bought the notion that the entire Citadel is for or against anything. Marwyn is the most obvious example here. In any such organization, there are going to be opposing factions. In my view, there is a faction at the Citadel that supports balancing the world's forces and supporting the Pact.

I don't think that the Hightowers are anti-Targ in the modern era. From my perspective, their overiding concern is to preserve the Pact in cooperation with the few remaining CoTF/Green Men. The Dragons represented an imbalance between ice and fire, and if stories about Jaehaerys are correct, the dragons and the Targaryens (at this point) were a possible threat to the far north, where further human encroachment is unwelcome.

I put the Whents, the Strongs, and maybe the Lothstons in the same camp. Targ-hate isn't anyone's overriding concern. Indeed, Bloodraven has Targ blood! But when the Targs start pushing the world too far towards fire, we have problems: Dragons, Summerhall, Aerys' obsession with fire, etc.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

I think you miss one important thing in that pact - We swear by ice and fire. So, fire is also a part of that pact. So is Bloodraven who is part FM, part Targaryen. Why would he be accepted by CotF with that blood if fire was excluded? So, I would oppose your premise. The pact is about natural balance, but the Citadel is the enemy of the pact, not it's ally. Rogue masters like Marwin are into the pact. Aemon as well. But, the mainstream Citadel opposes magic and had it's hand in the destruction of dragons as you showed yourself. Maester Luwin does his utmost to crush Bran's ideas about magic and three-eyed raven. So, I'd go back to reworking the theory. I admire your work, but I think you should take a step back and sort out the motives first.

Absolutely, fire is part of the pact. Humans are part of the pact! The FM had fire, and they brought it to Westeros. I believe that the Children didn't use fire (or at least not extensively).

By the way, thanks for your input. We actually agree on much or all of this.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

What a fun read! I can't wait for updates/additions. I also want to compliment the OP and all commenters on the civility of the give-and-take of opinions, interpretations, and facts. Threads are so much more enjoyable when all participants treat the topics as open-ended, reciprocal sharing of our love for ASOIAF rather than dogma to be defended to the death. Well done everyone! :cheers:

Thanks, and welcome aboard.

[WeaselPie]

OP, ML made a shipshape list here in the Green Men thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115215-the-sacred-order-of-green-men/?p=6117674

And I threw around in the same thread (in my usual clumsy manner) that maybe A Song of Water and Fire... A Song of Bronze and Iron... A Song of Earth and Water, etc. had already occured, and the last is quite logically The Song of Ice and Fire. The Last Song.

ML said: "However, what if:

earth represents CotF

water represents the Rhornar

bronze represent the Andals

iron represents the FM

fire represents Valyrians

ice represents the Others"

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Yup, saw that, and it makes a lot of sense.

There is also a thread somewhere around here about the significance of songs and GRRM's use of songs. It was really interesting, and it could fit in quite nicely with ML's list and your theory about ASIOF being the most recent of Planetos' songs.

Edit: Here's the thread. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110263-those-who-sing/page-1?hl=songs

I highly recommend reading it if you haven't already.

[Winter Blues]

This entire board has reinstated my faith in these forums. Not completely sold, but this is amazing work.

[Modesty Lannister]

I've never bought the notion that the entire Citadel is for or against anything. Marwyn is the most obvious example here. In any such organization, there are going to be opposing factions. In my view, there is a faction at the Citadel that supports balancing the world's forces and supporting the Pact.

I don't think that the Hightowers are anti-Targ in the modern era. From my perspective, their overiding concern is to preserve the Pact in cooperation with the few remaining CoTF/Green Men. The Dragons represented an imbalance between ice and fire, and if stories about Jaehaerys are correct, the dragons and the Targaryens (at this point) were a possible threat to the far north, where further human encroachment is unwelcome.

I put the Whents, the Strongs, and maybe the Lothstons in the same camp. Targ-hate isn't anyone's overriding concern. Indeed, Bloodraven has Targ blood! But when the Targs start pushing the world too far towards fire, we have problems: Dragons, Summerhall, Aerys' obsession with fire, etc.

But did Targaryens push the world far towards the fire? Aegon the Conqueror went to the Citadel and to Dorne prior to his conquest. Did he make an arrangement with the maesters? Most probably since after the conquest, Trags introduced the fate of 7 and took on their own maester. Note that the only family Aegon never fought the Starks. We are told that the King who knelt saw the dragons and decided to spare his men. I think that very un-Stark-like. I think that magical families are not supposed to fight. "We swear by ice and fire". Starks and Targs never fought before mad Aerys burnt Rickard and made Brandon strangle himself.

You say the Citadel does not have one political line. I think we agree, but put it differently. The official Citadel DOES have one political line. Whoever disagrees is sidelined. Marwin and his mostly Dornish acolytes (and one acolytess) are barely hanging by a thread in Old Town. Aemon was kept far away on the Wall (but I suspect that's what Aemon wanted). So, yes, there are factions, but there is only one dominant faction and that one is anti-magic oriented.

Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent were Rhaegar's BFFs. They do not strike me as double-crossers. So, I'd say Rhaegar (and Aemon) was trying to unite all magical families behind him against the non-magic conspiracy. Harrenhal tourney had that goal. If you look closely who was invited, it becomes interesting. Also, Harrenhal tourney's location is significant. Close to the Order of Green Men. Was Reed sent to the tourney by the order? I suspect so.

Furthermore, the Ghost of the High Heart was in touch with RT. He used to go to Summerhall only to return with a new song. We see her with Arya asking for a song and mentioning Summerhall grief. And High Heart lies above the Hollow Hill where BwB resided. Accidentally that cave has obviously belonged to CotF. So, I wouldn't attribute resurrection of Beric to Thoros alone. Arya sees Beric sitting on a wierwood throne not unlike BR. That grove was such a powerful magical place that it retained a part of magic even after the wierwoods were cut. Jaime has his cave dream when putting a head on one of these stumps. So, back to RT. Was the Ghost of High Heart RT's link with the OoGM? Was Reed playing the same role with Ned and Lyanna? And how should we see RT's abduction of Lyanna in that light? People debate whether they were married? They obviously were in the eyes of the Old Gods since he abducted her.