A Recollection of Poisons

[Light a wight tonight]

Too big a jump to assume that Domeric was killed with the Tears of Lys. Between Ramsay and his mother they could have fed Domeric something simple, like poisonous mushrooms, as Tyrion does with Nurse. No expenditure at all if they grow in that area.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Hmm, I don't think we can ascertain the pale mare is a poison as it does appear to spread very much like a virus.

But indeed! what was in the locusts? what were Strong Belwass's symptoms again?

The man on the Pale Mare is not actually from Astapor - he is eight days ahead of the other refugees and wears a tokar. No one in Astapor would be wearing a tokar.

Essentially, the bloody flux (which is probably just dysentary or cholera) was misnamed.

He also has different symptoms from the bloody flux. They don't have blood in their shit.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Hmm, I don't think we can ascertain the pale mare is a poison as it does appear to spread very much like a virus.

But indeed! what was in the locusts? what were Strong Belwass's symptoms again?

Vomiting bile and blood followed by weight loss and prolonged sluggishness.

[White Ravens]

Going back to my water idea.. Do we even know where KL get's its water from? I imagine the Blackwater Bay is salt water, so close to the open sea.

King's Landing is built at the mouth of Blackwater Rush, a deep and fast flowing river.

[Arya Havinfun]

"Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai’i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man’s throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim’s face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food."

[AcoK, p16]

It always seemed weird to me that the foreign name of this poison should be mentioned as something the character forgot, as if GRRM wanted us readers to wonder what the poison's foreign name might be. That got me to thinking about some of the foreign words we've read elsewhere in the books. The only one that somehow seems connected is "valonqar", the "little brother", a name which appears closely associated with murderous choking.

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.” [AFfC, p610]

Why might a poison be called "little brother"? Well, maybe poison is used in some places by sneaky little brothers to correct their perceived inheritance problems? :uhoh:

It seems possible to me that Cersei may end up poisoned rather than physically choked by someone’s hands, and that neither Jaime nor Tyrion needs to be involved at all. She might even poison herself after suffering some great loss.

Do I have proof? No, nothing more than these two quotes. Might GRRM spring something like this on us? Maybe… :dunno:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

King's Landing is built at the mouth of Blackwater Rush, a deep and fast flowing river.

But is that salt water or not? If it is, they can't use it..

[HexMachina]

King's Landing has wells, so I imagine aquifers are their water source

[Mithras]

Thanks for bringing up the locusts. That reminded me of something else but perhaps it is the same thing.

Standing on his toes and straining upward, he [Tyrion] managed to pull a small dusty bottle off the high shelf. When he read the label, he smiled and slipped it up his sleeve.

His back was to her as he filled two cups with sweet Arbor red. It was the easiest thing in the world to sprinkle a pinch of fine powder into hers. “To Stannis!” he said as he handed her the wine. Harmless when I’m alone, am I?

He [Tyrion] almost felt sorry for poisoning her [Cersei].

It was the next morning as he [Tyrion] broke his fast that her messenger arrived. The queen was indisposed and would not be able to leave her chambers. Not able to leave her privy, more like.

Tyrion stole a laxative poison/medicine from Pycelle’s chamber and used it on Cersei.

First of all, I think Shavepate was the poisoner of the locusts but he did not mean to kill Dany. Just making her sick and putting the blame of the obvious poisoning to Hizdahr was his purpose. Dany would of course eat a few locusts and start to retch. Belwas ate it all yet he survived with some weight loss.

I posted in the OP that nightshade is a real life poison/medicine. Solanine is the poison found in the nightshade family and its symptoms are very similar to what happened to Belwas. Solanine has a bitter taste and the locusts were spiced and honeyed, which makes it easier to hide the bitter taste of the poison.

The maester’s medicines made an impressive display; dozens of pots sealed with wax, hundreds of stoppered vials, as many milkglass bottles, countless jars of dried herbs, each container neatly labeled in Pycelle’s precise hand. An orderly mind, Tyrion reflected, and indeed, once you puzzled out the arrangement, it was easy to see that every potion had its place. And such interesting things. He noted sweetsleep and nightshade, milk of the poppy, the tears of Lys, powdered greycap, wolfsbane and demon’s dance, basilisk venom, blindeye, widow’s blood . . .

Standing on his toes and straining upward, he managed to pull a small dusty bottle off the high shelf. When he read the label, he smiled and slipped it up his sleeve.

Note that sweetsleep and nightshade are stored side by side along with the milk of the poppy. That is because they are used for medical purposes. We know the uses of sweetsleep. Nightshade in real life is used as a laxative. That is what happened to Cersei and probably Belwas suffered a heavy diarrhea in the Blue Temple, which caused him to lose significant weight.

[Mithras]

Some plants in the nightshade family have green/black berries and they are also poisonous. Note that these naturally occurring poisons in these plants are for defense against parasites and fungi. In TSS, Egg wondered whether certain green berries were safe to eat or not. Dunk warned him not to eat anything his mule would not. In ADwD, Dany ate green berries and as a result, she showed the symptoms of a nightshade poisoning. She noted that the berries had a bitter aftertaste. I posted previously that the active substance in nightshade has a bitter taste.

As a result, it looks like Dany was poisoned with nightshade when she ate those berries.

[Lord Varys]

Paper Weaver,

you are aware of the subtle contradiction implying that Hizdahr was privy to (or behind the attempt on Daenerys, right? Dany ordering her servants to make Hizdahr his favorite dishes (some of them similar to the honeyed locusts), and Hizdahr later, when confronted by Barristan, claimed that 'hot spices don't agree with me', which is a very strong hint.

Of course, he could have been in the whole thing with the Shavepate, but that seems to be unlikely, and he also tried to convince Dany to eat the locusts.

[HexMachina]

Paper Weaver,

Maybe you could add the poisonous mushrooms to the OP?

As he did, he saw some mushrooms growing up from a cracked paving tile. Pale white they were, with speckles, and red-ribbed undersides dark as blood. The dwarf snapped one off and sniffed it. Delicious, he thought, and deadly.

And of course, they were (almost certainly) used later on Nurse

Watered wine and lemonsweet and some nice hot dogtail soup, with slivers of mushroom in the broth. Drink it down, Nursey, that shitwater squirting from your arse needs to be replaced. The last word Nurse ever said was, “No.” The last words he ever heard were, “A Lannister always pays his debts.”

[HexMachina]

More on sweetsleep from Samwell II aSoS:

"When they'd left Castle Black, Brown Bernar hasld been carrying bags of Myrish fire, mustard salve, ground garlic, tansy, poppy, kingscopper and other healing herbs. Even sweetsleep, which gave the gift of painless death."

[Mithras]

Paper Weaver,

you are aware of the subtle contradiction implying that Hizdahr was privy to (or behind the attempt on Daenerys, right? Dany ordering her servants to make Hizdahr his favorite dishes (some of them similar to the honeyed locusts), and Hizdahr later, when confronted by Barristan, claimed that 'hot spices don't agree with me', which is a very strong hint.

Of course, he could have been in the whole thing with the Shavepate, but that seems to be unlikely, and he also tried to convince Dany to eat the locusts.

I did not say that Hizdahr was in the poisoning. He is truly sensitive to spices as he claimed, something Shavepate knows well. That is why he put the poison in a food that would not be eaten by him but Dany would try a few. I think she could have eaten them as Shavepate expected but her floppy ears were already dropping and she was growing sick of Meereen.

Paper Weaver,

Maybe you could add the poisonous mushrooms to the OP?

And of course, they were (almost certainly) used later on Nurse

Yeah, mushrooms are explained and used in the series.

“Magister Ordello was poisoned by a mushroom not half a year ago. The pain is not so much, I am told. Some cramping in the gut, a sudden ache behind the eyes, and it is done.”

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Did Tyrion use all the mushrooms, or does he still have a few?

[Lord Varys]

It's not said that he used all of them. So I guess he still has some of them. And I'd not be surprised if he'd use them in the battles to come, especially during the negotiations afterwards...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I had been hoping he still had some left.. That could lead to interesting situations in Winds, and possibly DoS. :)

[Mithras]

Wolfsbane (Aconitum) plants contain the relatively fast-acting poison Aconitine which targets the cardiovascular and central nervous system. Death from wolfsbane poisoning generally occurs when the heart slows and then stops.

Wolfsbane was historically used on spear and arrow heads in hunting large and dangerous prey from wolves and foxes to bears and even whales. It was also used in warfare.

Speculation

I think Varys used wolfsbane on the crossbow bolt that he killed Kevan with. Although Kevan was shot from the chest, he could not move and he could not shout. The paralyzing effect was showing itself. Varys used this because he did not want Kevan to get up and shout for the guards.

I said wolfsbane is used on arrow heads to hunt dangerous prey. I think a lion also qualifies.

Crackpot

Was the dagger that brazed Jon’s neck poisoned with wolfsbane? Jon’s hand grew stiff and clumsy. Perhaps it was not the just hand but a general dizziness caused by wolfsbane.

[Lady Flandrensis]

Thanks for a great thread. :cheers:

[Paltogue]

The poison Tears of Lys reminds me of the 'Black Poison of Lisz' from the Fighting Fantasy book 'Daggers of Darkness'. Coincidence or is GRRM an FF fan?!

[The Dragons Hand]

I do love me some sneaky murder. Or how Tyrion affected Cersei, not with death, but keeping her out of the way. Poisons really are their own kind of magic.