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Knight Of Winter

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I hope I phrase this right without making an ass of myself... in spoilers in case of inappropriateness.



Are there any rape scenes written in the books?



context: discussion with a friend about the show. I said the Karl Tanner scene was overboard because the books only do this in "hearsay" terms but rape is never shown directly. began to doubt myself thinking about Arya's Harrenhal/riverlands chapters.


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Yes, Faith will choose a champion. We don't know who will that be, although Lancel and Sandor are most popular guesses. I believe is that Faith's champion will be completely new character.

I thought that it was pretty clear in AFFC that Sandor Clegane is dead and buried.

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I hope I phrase this right without making an ass of myself... in spoilers in case of inappropriateness.

Are there any rape scenes written in the books?

context: discussion with a friend about the show. I said the Karl Tanner scene was overboard because the books only do this in "hearsay" terms but rape is never shown directly. began to doubt myself thinking about Arya's Harrenhal/riverlands chapters.

I can only recall hearsay...you have Lollys, which we hear afterwards. The Mountain and the Innkeepers daughter. That one is quite explicit, but again, not seen by Arya, only heard. I think you may be right, we never "see" such a scene
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I thought that it was pretty clear in AFFC that Sandor Clegane is dead and buried.

"The Hound" is dead, but it is widely believed that Sandor Clegane lives. See "The Gravedigging Hound" in the compendium of theories for further details
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I thought that it was pretty clear in AFFC that Sandor Clegane is dead and buried.

Sandor may be alive.

Topic of the conversation runs not so much about his name Sandor Clegane but around his nickname The Hound:

"Lady Brienne is a warrior maid," confided Septon Meribald, "hunting for the Hound."

"The Hound?" said Brienne.

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

Elder Brother tells Brienne:

There is one thing I do know, however. The man you hunt is dead."

[...]

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

-- If Elder Brother tells the truth, The Hound is dead and buried.

Elder Brother now tells Brienne about Sandor Clegane:

"I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane. He was Prince Joffrey's sworn shield for many a year, and even here we would hear tell of his deeds, both good and ill. If even half of what we heard was true, this was a bitter, tormented soul, a sinner who mocked both gods and men. He served, but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine. He did not love, nor was he loved himself. It was hate that drove him. Though he committed many sins, he never sought forgiveness. Where other men dream of love, or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble as it was, the hope of seeing his brother's blood upon his blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for . . . and even that was taken from him, when Prince Oberyn of Dorne stabbed Ser Gregor with a poisoned spear."

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

also all past tense. Even when seeing a difference between The Hound and Sandor Clegane still shows no hint of Sandor surving.

Elder Brother further tells Brienne:

"I did. You would have pitied him as well, if you had seen him at the end. I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again. Instead, I bathed his fevered brow with river water, and gave him wine to drink and a poultice for his wound, but my efforts were too little and too late. The Hound died there, in my arms. You may have seen a big black stallion in our stables. That was his warhorse, Stranger. A blasphemous name. We prefer to call him Driftwood, as he was found beside the river. I fear he has his former master's nature."

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

We see the echo in Brienne's mind:

The horse. She had seen the stallion, had heard it kicking, but she had not understood. Destriers were trained to kick and bite. In war they were a weapon, like the men who rode them. Like the Hound. "It is true, then," she said dully. "Sandor Clegane is dead."

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

Brienne says it.

Elder Brother tells Brienne:

so, give up this quest of yours. The Hound is dead, and in any case he never had your Sansa Stark.

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

Elder Brother might have his very own agenda on (possibly both) finding Sansa Stark-Lannister and diverting Brienne from her real hiding place and from her quest to hunt down Sandor.

Also see ninja'd :ninja: by @HelenaAndTheMachine above.

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I hope I phrase this right without making an ass of myself... in spoilers in case of inappropriateness.

Are there any rape scenes written in the books?

context: discussion with a friend about the show. I said the Karl Tanner scene was overboard because the books only do this in "hearsay" terms but rape is never shown directly. began to doubt myself thinking about Arya's Harrenhal/riverlands chapters.

We see some on page. For example in AGoT (ch 61) when Dany saves some Lamb women and meets MMD...

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Sandor may be alive.

Topic of the conversation runs not so much about his name Sandor Clegane but around his nickname The Hound:

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

Elder Brother tells Brienne:

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

-- If Elder Brother tells the truth, The Hound is dead and buried.

Elder Brother now tells Brienne about Sandor Clegane:

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

also all past tense. Even when seeing a difference between The Hound and Sandor Clegane still shows no hint of Sandor surving.

Elder Brother further tells Brienne:

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

We see the echo in Brienne's mind:

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

Brienne says it.

Elder Brother tells Brienne:

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

Elder Brother might have his very own agenda on (possibly both) finding Sansa Stark-Lannister and diverting Brienne from her real hiding place and from her quest to hunt down Sandor.

Also see ninja'd :ninja: by @HelenaAndTheMachine above.

You forgot the 1 quote that basically says he is alive lol. When the Elder brother tells Brienne how he himself "died" that is how we know.

Edit: It might have been the traveling septon that says he "died" but one of them tells Brienne how he "died" after deserting in the war of the 9 penny kings. Now that I think of it it was def the traveling septon.

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what do I read while I wait for WOW? Tried reading gardens of the moon and wasn't up to par. Give me some input

Robin Hobb has some excellent series - namely Assassin, Liveship Traders and Tawny Man trilogies.

Other than that, you can check literature forum, where they have recommendation thread.

Oh my yes, yes, one thousand times yes. I can't get enough of these, particularly Liveships...and she has a new Fitz+Fool trilogy starting off in August...my bank balance is cowering in fear...

Ah, yes, almost forgot The Fool's Assassin is coming only a month from now :D

I have exceedingly high expectations, but that's nothing unusual for a Hobb book :P

Yeah I didn't like Gardens I finished it and started maybe a hundred pages of the second book but that was purely because I expected it to get better I was told the first book is hard work but to stick with it and only really enjoyed the last fifty or so pages of the first book then it got boring again.

I've just downloaded Assassins Apprentice to kindle :)

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A septa seems to be the equivilent of a governess (is that the right word) in British history, and they usually educated young ladies on matters that it was proper to educate them in. Women likely aren't expected to know their history and such. From the comments made by Arya, it seems they are taught womanly pursuits (embroidery, music etc.), heraldry (Sansa seems to recognise most of the tourney knights) reading and writing and some arithmatic, and its likely the Septa deals with this. The example of Shireen (and Catelyn too, now I think) differs, as these two Ladies were the heir apparents of their father's title. That puts more responsibility on them and likely means further education.

ETA: Rhaenys, we are never told of a septa on Dragonstone. There may have been a Septon, i seem to think he tried to defend the sept with Rambton and Sunglass but could be wrong. However, given that Melisandre was with Selyse for years before the main events of the novels, I can imagine if Shireen ever was educated by a Septa she was dismissed before aCoK

While I agree that Septa Mordane did teach (or attempted to in Arya's case) traditional "ladylike" pursuits to the two Stark girls, and I can't remember any mention of Maester Luwin giving them lessons, I think reading, writing, and lessons of those sorts seem to be more in Luwin's domain. And Arya seems to know things about which houses are sworn to which (the scene with her and Tywin at Harrenhal comes to mind, though I know that's just the show), or at the very least she remembers boring lessons about such, and that too seems to be more Luwin's area than Septa Mordane.

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You forgot the 1 quote that basically says he is alive lol. When the Elder brother tells Brienne how he himself "died" that is how we know.

Edit: It might have been the traveling septon that says he "died" but one of them tells Brienne how he "died" after deserting in the war of the 9 penny kings. Now that I think of it it was def the traveling septon.

Nah, ye'r perficly right

Thus spake Elder Brother:

"When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on. I can still remember how desperate I was to find another horse, for I had no coin to buy one, and without a horse I would no longer be a knight. That was all that I was thinking of, if truth be told. I never saw the blow that felled me. I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.

AFfC 31 Brienne VI

(added: The Battle at the Trident was 17 years ago and the War of the Ninepenny Kings was roughly 41 years ago, the same year as the Tragedy of Summerhall and Ser Barristan made Kingsguard.)

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In Catelyn VII, Clash we learn that Robert won the Valyrian dagger betting on Loras against Jaime at Joffrey's tourney. Do we know for sure whom he won it from? It seems reasonable to assume he won it from Petyr but do we know that for sure?

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How do houses in Dorne keep their name? When a woman inherits, do her children inherit her name as well? Aren't they suppose to take their father's last name?

Is it different in Dorne because they have different inheritance rules?

Thanks in advance :)

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How do houses in Dorne keep their name? When a woman inherits, do her children inherit her name as well? Aren't they suppose to take their father's last name?

Is it different in Dorne because they have different inheritance rules?

Thanks in advance :)

Dorne keeps Rhoynish customs, and so when a woman becomes the ruler of a House, her children take her last name, to ensure that the seat and lands stay in the family. Think, for example, of Doran's mother, the ruling Princess of Dorne, a Martell. She was married, but all her children took her name, because she held the ruling seat. The same thing happens for House Toland, for example.

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How do houses in Dorne keep their name? When a woman inherits, do her children inherit her name as well? Aren't they suppose to take their father's last name?

Is it different in Dorne because they have different inheritance rules?

Thanks in advance :)

SSM

May I ask a clarifying question about Dornish succession? It's been said that in Dorne women have the same inheritance rights as men; therefore, first-born daughters inherit their parents' titles. However, in most of Westeros, women take their husbands' names, and so do the trueborn children they produce. How, then, does the Martell name continue? If Arianne Martell is heir to Doran, won't she become a non-Martell when she marries, and won't her children and heirs bear the name of her husband? Doran's mother ruled Dorne, and yet he bears the name Martell? Can you clarify this

Actually the name "Martell" has used by the other (non Dornish) characters is an oversimplification. If you look in the appendix, you'll see that the ruling prince of Dorne is Doran Nymeros Martell. The ruling family always uses this formulation, to signify the union of Mors Martell with Queen Nymeria of the Ten Thousand Ships.

A ruling princess of Dorne would not take the name of her consort. And some of the major Dornish lordlings also follow this custom, in imitation of the ruling house.

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Is there anything in Coldhands' description that would suggest or preclude him from being Dunk? For that matter, do we know enough about Dunk to say he was or wasn't ever in the Nights Watch later in life?

Not saying this is even worthy of a crackpot. The idea simply crossed my mind and I'm wondering if those more on top of things know of something that renders it not even with looking into.

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Is there anything in Coldhands' description that would suggest or preclude him from being Dunk? For that matter, do we know enough about Dunk to say he was or wasn't ever in the Nights Watch later in life?

Not saying this is even worthy of a crackpot. The idea simply crossed my mind and I'm wondering if those more on top of things know of something that renders it not even with looking into.

Dunk.died at Summerhall
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Is there anything in Coldhands' description that would suggest or preclude him from being Dunk? For that matter, do we know enough about Dunk to say he was or wasn't ever in the Nights Watch later in life?

Not saying this is even worthy of a crackpot. The idea simply crossed my mind and I'm wondering if those more on top of things know of something that renders it not even with looking into.

Dunk.died at Summerhall
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