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Stubby

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Actually Fred, Ned remembers them saying they knew Aegon was dead.

No, he doesn't. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys. Nothing is said about Elia, Aegon or Rhaenys.

The reason I don't think they know anything about Aegon is that I suscribe to the common belief that the Tower of Joy was not on a raven route. So messages came by horse or on foot.

Aerys' death became public knowledge immediately when it happened. Ned saw Aerys' body when it was still bleeding, as did numerous Lannister guardsmen and Northmen. So that news spread immediately.

However, the fate of Aegon was not known until a few days later. We know this because Robert was wounded on the Trident and he sent Ned ahead of him to King's Landing. Yet Ned did not find out about the fate of Aegon until Tywin presented the bodies to Robert.

I think the messenger who brought news of Aerys' death went to the Tower of Joy as soon as he or she heard the news. I don't think he or she returned to a raven-friendly place after delivering that news, got the news about Aegon, and then went back to the Tower of Joy before Ned arrived. I also think that if the King's guards thought Aegon was dead, it would have come up during their conversation with Ned. The absence of any mention of Aegon is very conspicuous.

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No, he doesn't. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys. Nothing is said about Elia, Aegon or Rhaenys.

The reason I don't think they know anything about Aegon is that I suscribe to the common belief that the Tower of Joy was not on a raven route. So messages came by horse or on foot.

Aerys' death became public knowledge immediately when it happened. Ned saw Aerys' body when it was still bleeding, as did numerous Lannister guardsmen and Northmen. So that news spread immediately.

However, the fate of Aegon was not known until a few days later. We know this because Robert was wounded on the Trident and he sent Ned ahead of him to King's Landing. Yet Ned did not find out about the fate of Aegon until Tywin presented the bodies to Robert.

I think the messenger who brought news of Aerys' death went to the Tower of Joy as soon as he or she heard the news. I don't think he or she returned to a raven-friendly place after delivering that news, got the news about Aegon, and then went back to the Tower of Joy before Ned arrived. I also think that if the King's guards thought Aegon was dead, it would have come up during their conversation with Ned. The absence of any mention of Aegon is very conspicuous.

Why Twinslayer, it's so nice to see you again.

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What suggests to you that knowing what we do about Rhaegar he would abduct Lyanna? Time and again we see that Rhaegar was considered honorable by nearly everyone but Robert. Nothing in the books suggest to me that he abducted Lyanna or that it was even in his nature to do so.

Rhaegar taking matters into his own hands, taking the hit to HIS honor, understanding that he will be forgiven much more quickly in that patriarchal society than Lyanna, seems consistent with his reputation.

“He chose the girl’s honor over his own.“, where have we seen it? :-)

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I think the messenger who brought news of Aerys' death went to the Tower of Joy as soon as he or she heard the news. I don't think he or she returned to a raven-friendly place after delivering that news, got the news about Aegon, and then went back to the Tower of Joy before Ned arrived. I also think that if the King's guards thought Aegon was dead, it would have come up during their conversation with Ned. The absence of any mention of Aegon is very conspicuous.

Why would it be conspicuous, it was by design by GRRM. The 3KGs had to die, its to serve the purpose of Ned's burden until the moment of his execution, the haunting memories that good men died that day, from his side and the 3KGs, the burden of his promises to his sister to keep Jon safe from a friend that will kill at the knowledge of any hints if Jon have Targaryen blood flowing in him, especially being the true heir of the IT.

So you feel that the 3KGs knew that Varys (or someone) switched the babies? that's what you're saying, you're trying to connect a fine thread where they believed baby Aegon is alive, because they would bringing it up with Ned in conversation if he was dead, right?

These are their words to Ned:

Our knees do not bend easily

(to the rebellion, to the new king, Robert)

Ser Willem is a good man and true... But not of the Kingsguard... The Kingsguard does not flee

(clearly Viserys is not the next in line, more evidence that instead they'd rather be defending the King in KL then or... now with Jon at the TOJ)

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

(if it's to make it clear for Ned, and us, the readers, that at that moment the LC believed he is clearly still keeping his sacred vow)

Ok then, so Arthur and Whent, I would assume had no clue about Varys' plans, they were with Rhaegar all this time. So the only possible member of the 3KGs that could possibly know is the Lord Commander. Because if we assume all 3 knew about Aegon being spirited away, I mean why stay at the tower?

Hmm, is Hightower lying then? in the middle of Targaryen extermination, Hightower is refusing to go to Aegon (the true heir after Rhaegar), and instead guarding a mistress of a prince? (with your favorite assumption that R+L not married).

So, the by-the-book Kingsguard, who watched Ned's Father and brother being tortured to death, had the gall to protect a mistress and doesn't go to find baby Aegon? I would think ser Gerold would move heaven and earth, using all of his resources to find where Varys was holding and keeping baby Aegon by now, as in he would've left the TOJ a while ago... like seconds after hearing Aerys' death, he would've been gone. However, he stayed, still strict with the vow he made, the vow to protect the King or the true heir.. still in the tower.

I figured you would think of Ned's thoughts highly, Fred. You do know that Ned thought of Dayne, Whent and Hightower as shining examples of the Kingsguard, right? not some oathbreaker, like Jaime.

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These are their words to Ned...

Ser Willem is a good man and true... But not of the Kingsguard... The Kingsguard does not flee

(clearly Viserys is not the next in line, more evidence that instead they'd rather be defending the King in KL then or... now with Jon at the TOJ)

To be fair, that particular line is not as ambiguous as you present it.

"Ser Willem is a good man and true..."

[and say so all of us]

"But not of the Kingsguard... The Kingsguard does not flee"

[if we had been there, we wouldn't have run away..., just as earlier they assert that if they had been at Kings Landing Aerys wouldn't be dead]]

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Ser Willem is a good man and true... But not of the Kingsguard... The Kingsguard does not flee

(clearly Viserys is not the next in line, more evidence that instead they'd rather be defending the King in KL then or... now with Jon at the TOJ)

This is my biggest problem with the Jon=King theory.

Not fleeing =/= protecting the king.

Protecting the king in this instance is fleeing. As in, head to the nearest port and get him across the narrow sea. Instead, the Kingsguard decide to stay put and die. It's only by chance that its Ned that arrives and has mercy on his nephew. If anyone else arrived, Jon would be dead. It's an idiotic move.

Run? With a baby? Yes, Dayne is from Dorne. He knows the land, has friends and family and can easily cross Dorne with a baby. Ned did it and Dorne was foreign and hostle to him.

Maybe Lyanna was sick and couldn't move? Who cares? We're talking about protecting the king here. Supposedly, other orders don't matter. The Kingsguard hung out for at least two months at the ToJ. Two months! Why? Run! Get to a port, you idiots!

I think its much more likely that the Kingsguard was keeping Rhaegar's secrets. As in the weird eugenics project and prophecy fulfillment and all that.

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This is my biggest problem with the Jon=King theory.

Not fleeing =/= protecting the king.

Protecting the king in this instance is fleeing. As in, head to the nearest port and get him across the narrow sea. Instead, the Kingsguard decide to stay put and die. It's only by chance that its Ned that arrives and has mercy on his nephew. If anyone else arrived, Jon would be dead. It's an idiotic move.

Run? With a baby? Yes, Dayne is from Dorne. He knows the land, has friends and family and can easily cross Dorne with a baby. Ned did it and Dorne was foreign and hostle to him.

Maybe Lyanna was sick and couldn't move? Who cares? We're talking about protecting the king here. Supposedly, other orders don't matter. The Kingsguard hung out for at least two months at the ToJ. Two months! Why? Run! Get to a port, you idiots!

I think its much more likely that the Kingsguard was keeping Rhaegar's secrets. As in the weird eugenics project and prophecy fulfillment and all that.

Where do you get 2 months from? Are you suggesting that Lyanna gave birth 2 months before Ned arrives?

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No, he doesn't. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys. Nothing is said about Elia, Aegon or Rhaenys.

If news was brought to them about Jaime killing Aerys there is no reason whatsoever to think they would not have also received word of Elia and her children. Where are you getting that it was several days before anyone knew about Elia and her children? This is why you have so much trouble with R+L=J, you continue to base your assumptions on opinion instead of logic. Unless we are told differently there would be no reason to think the truth about Elia and her children was hidden for days. Are you saying that days went by and no one thought to ask where Rhaegars wife and children were? Thats simply ridiculous. The 3 KG at the tower also knew that Ser Willem had taken Rhaella and Viserys to Dagonstone, yet you are really going to try and argue that they knew all of this and were not told about Aegon? That doesn't make any sense.

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Where do you get 2 months from? Are you suggesting that Lyanna gave birth 2 months before Ned arrives?

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

Two months is the minimum amount of time Ned took to march an army down to Storm's End and then ride to the Tower of Joy. And that's assuming the actual lifting the seige at Storm's End took no time at all, Ned found out where the ToJ was immediately and that Ned never got lost along the way.

Now, you can go the other way and say that Lyanna was 7 months pregnant at the fall of KL and gave birth just as Ned came, but then you have a healthy Lyanna who could have easily traveled. And if Lyanna hasn't give birth yet, then the KG don't know who the king is. Viserys would have a 50/50 chance so at least one of the KG should have left to hedge their bets.

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Two months is the minimum amount of time Ned took to march an army down to Storm's End and then ride to the Tower of Joy. And that's assuming the actual lifting the seige at Storm's End took no time at all, Ned found out where the ToJ was immediately and that Ned never got lost along the way.

He would have needed less time for that.. a month after the Sack, he would have arrived at ToJ..

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Maybe Lyanna was sick and couldn't move? Who cares? We're talking about protecting the king here. Supposedly, other orders don't matter. The Kingsguard hung out for at least two months at the ToJ. Two months! Why? Run! Get to a port, you idiots!

I think this is exactly it, actually. She's ill and they're waiting it out, almost certainly with medical care of some sort (midwife?), to see if she recovers or dies. They have no way of knowing the location's been leaked.

The siege did get lifted right away IIRC, but Lyanna wasn't lying around post-birth for two months. She would have been still pregnant while Ned was lifting the siege. (And yes, GRRM made the timing pretty convenient such that the baby was already born, but not moved, before Ned came.)

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Two months is the minimum amount of time Ned took to march an army down to Storm's End and then ride to the Tower of Joy. And that's assuming the actual lifting the seige at Storm's End took no time at all, Ned found out where the ToJ was immediately and that Ned never got lost along the way.

What about the second part of my question? It is highly unlikely that Lyanna survived two months after giving birth, especially if her cause of death is childbed fever. Another point to consider is that travel times in the book are already questionable. At then end of the day how long it takes Ned to arrive at the ToJ will be what best suits the story, not what is realistic.

Rogue Prince spoiler:

Laena died of childbed fever three days after giving birth.

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No, he doesn't. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys. Nothing is said about Elia, Aegon or Rhaenys.

The reason I don't think they know anything about Aegon is that I suscribe to the common belief that the Tower of Joy was not on a raven route. So messages came by horse or on foot.

Aerys' death became public knowledge immediately when it happened. Ned saw Aerys' body when it was still bleeding, as did numerous Lannister guardsmen and Northmen. So that news spread immediately.

However, the fate of Aegon was not known until a few days later. We know this because Robert was wounded on the Trident and he sent Ned ahead of him to King's Landing. Yet Ned did not find out about the fate of Aegon until Tywin presented the bodies to Robert.

I think the messenger who brought news of Aerys' death went to the Tower of Joy as soon as he or she heard the news. I don't think he or she returned to a raven-friendly place after delivering that news, got the news about Aegon, and then went back to the Tower of Joy before Ned arrived. I also think that if the King's guards thought Aegon was dead, it would have come up during their conversation with Ned. The absence of any mention of Aegon is very conspicuous.

I think the key quote that tells us the the 3 KG knew that Aegon is dead is the following:

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

In this quote, Ned is asking them why they are not on Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. This question would make no sense if Ned did not assume that the 3 KG knew that Aegon is dead at that point--and if the 3 KG did not know before that statement by Ned, they certainly could conclude it from that statement. So, while it seems clear from the quote above that Ned assumed they knew about Aegon's death--even if Ned was mistaken--that statement by Ned made it clear. But none of the KG react by saying why they did not try to get to Aegon to protect him or why, now that they know Aegon is dead, they are not going to send at least one KG to Dragonstone. But much more likely, Ned assumes they know about Aegon's death because in hindsight (it is a "fever dream" not a word-for-word recreation) Ned knows that the KG knew that Aegon was dead. How does he know? Probably as a result of the conversation he eventually has with Lyanna right before she dies (but after he killed the 3 KG).

Basically,you are correct that Aegon's name never comes up in the conversation--BUT that actually is an argument against your point and not for it. The lack of Aegon's name (while Viserys is mentioned) is because everyone knows that Aegon is dead and therefore irrelevant. If there was anyone there that thought that Aegon might be the true heir because he was still alive, he would have been addressed. As others have detailed, the behavior of the KG really is ONLY consistent with them guarding the person who they believe to be the true heir to the Targaryen throne.

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I think the key quote that tells us the the 3 KG knew that Aegon is dead is the following:

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

In this quote, Ned is asking them why they are not on Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. This question would make no sense if Ned did not assume that the 3 KG knew that Aegon is dead at that point--and if the 3 KG did not know before that statement by Ned, they certainly could conclude it from that statement. So, while it seems clear from the quote above that Ned assumed they knew about Aegon's death--even if Ned was mistaken--that statement by Ned made it clear. But none of the KG react by saying why they did not try to get to Aegon to protect him or why, now that they know Aegon is dead, they are not going to send at least one KG to Dragonstone. But much more likely, Ned assumes they know about Aegon's death because in hindsight (it is a "fever dream" not a word-for-word recreation) Ned knows that the KG knew that Aegon was dead. How does he know? Probably as a result of the conversation he eventually has with Lyanna right before she dies (but after he killed the 3 KG).

Basically,you are correct that Aegon's name never comes up in the conversation--BUT that actually is an argument against your point and not for it. The lack of Aegon's name (while Viserys is mentioned) is because everyone knows that Aegon is dead and therefore irrelevant. If there was anyone there that thought that Aegon might be the true heir because he was still alive, he would have been addressed. As others have detailed, the behavior of the KG really is ONLY consistent with them guarding the person who they believe to be the true heir to the Targaryen throne.

I would only add here that no-one mentions Rhaegar in the conversation, even though he, as Aerys' heir and Dayne's friend, should be their main concern. Apparently, they know what the Trident means and what happened there, so if they know of the Sack, they know the whole story, as well.

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Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

Two months is the minimum amount of time Ned took to march an army down to Storm's End and then ride to the Tower of Joy. And that's assuming the actual lifting the seige at Storm's End took no time at all, Ned found out where the ToJ was immediately and that Ned never got lost along the way.

Now, you can go the other way and say that Lyanna was 7 months pregnant at the fall of KL and gave birth just as Ned came, but then you have a healthy Lyanna who could have easily traveled. And if Lyanna hasn't give birth yet, then the KG don't know who the king is. Viserys would have a 50/50 chance so at least one of the KG should have left to hedge their bets.

I think we might have had this debate before, but here it goes. Most likely, it appears that Lyanna died of puerperal fever. People who die of that generally die within 10 days of giving birth (it is an infection of the birth canal). So most likely, Lyanna gave birth 3-10 days prior to Ned arriving--not 2 months. But I agree that they stayed at ToJ for at least 2 months, maybe longer. You continually question why?

I think many people have answered this question, but I don't think any of the answers will ever be convincing to you. I will give it a try anyway. One thing to keep in mind is that not everyone's logic will be identical to the logic that you would have employed in the same situation--both in real life and in fiction. In fiction sometimes you have to consider that logic is a bit strained because a result is necessary for the plot to develop as needed. But here I don't think you need to strain logic very much. Initially they stay because they expect Rhaegar to return and have no where better to go. After they find out that Rhaegar is dead, Lyanna is about 7-8 months pregnant (give or take) and probably would not travel well (risk a miscarriage). But the war is not really over yet, so ToJ still probably best place to stay. Then the sack of KL happens, but we don't know how long it took after the sack for word to get to ToJ. They might have only found out about the sack shortly before Ned arrives. There are a lot of relevant facts that we don't know.

But what I think is safe to assume is that Dayne and Whent had been at ToJ for quite a while and in all that time, the only person who found them is Hightower. They know how Hightower found them and presumably do not think that method is a method that others will likely be able to use to find them (apparently they are wrong because Ned finds them, but that does not mean that the assumption is unreasonable). So the choice is to stay in hiding until some arrangement can be made or make a run for it without knowing that they have safe passage out of Westeros or a safe place to hide in Westeros. Traveling with a pregnant woman is not something that can be done quickly (and risks miscarriage), and the risk of being seen by the wrong people is greater while traveling than staying at ToJ. Once Jon is born, Lyanna is definitely too sick to travel, and leaving her behind and running with a new born (again--probably without a clear path to safety) entails great risk as well.

So in summary, the main reasons why they probably stayed at ToJ are:

1) By the time they knew of the sack of KL, Lyanna was likely too far along in her pregnancy to travel and too sick to travel after giving birth.

2) ToJ had been a safe place to hide for quite a while so reasonable to believe it would continue to be safe.

3) Traveling without having arranged an escape route is reckless and riskier than staying at ToJ.

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What about the second part of my question? It is highly unlikely that Lyanna survived two months after giving birth, especially if her cause of death is childbed fever. Another point to consider is that travel times in the book are already questionable. At then end of the day how long it takes Ned to arrive at the ToJ will be what best suits the story, not what is realistic.

Rogue Prince spoiler:

Laena died of childbed fever three days after giving birth.

But even when you compare it with other traveltimes from the books, Ned could have been at ToJ within a month after the Sack.. It was essential to end the Siege as soon as possible, and if they could have gotten from the Trident to KL within a week, they could have rushed from KL to Storm's End in a rather short time as well ;)

From Storm's End to ToJ would have been a smaller group, which can travel faster. And in haste, of course, because Ned would want his sister back as soon as possible

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[snip]

1) By the time they knew of the sack of KL, Lyanna was likely too far along in her pregnancy to travel and too sick to travel after giving birth.

2) ToJ had been a safe place to hide for quite a while so reasonable to believe it would continue to be safe.

3) Traveling without having arranged an escape route is reckless and riskier than staying at ToJ.

Well said. I think the 3KG are faced with an almost impossible decision. i can only imagine the kind of conversations they were having once they learned that Rhaegar was dead and KL sacked. Do you risk the road and sea to get the prince to "safety" (which would probably kill Lyanna and put baby boy Jon at risk) and then be faced with raising the rightful heir, only to live in exile for 14-18 years before having to sail back and try and retake the throne and in the meantime hope you can avoid all the hired men who are certain to follow with knives and poison.... or do you stay and hope that either no one turns up or that if someone does turn up you can defend the new King and Rhaegar's wife?

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So this thus showed up at the current "I never noticed that"-thread:



I thought that I might bring it to attention here, perhaps there's some hidden hint in this as well?






Jaime spied a watchtower on the heights ahead, growing taller with every stroke of the oars. Long before they were upon it, he knew that it stood abandoned, its weathered stones overgrown with climbing roses.


Climbing roses: Lyanna


Abandoned stone tower: ToJ


?



In that scenario, I thought that the fact that the climbing roses are overgrowing the tower might have a meaning, but I'm not sure about what. Anyone?


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But even when you compare it with other traveltimes from the books, Ned could have been at ToJ within a month after the Sack.. It was essential to end the Siege as soon as possible, and if they could have gotten from the Trident to KL within a week, they could have rushed from KL to Storm's End in a rather short time as well ;)

From Storm's End to ToJ would have been a smaller group, which can travel faster. And in haste, of course, because Ned would want his sister back as soon as possible

I don't really bother much with the travel times so I'm just going to take your word on that. :) And yeah, I agree that it would not have taken long to lift the Siege. It doesn't appear that the Tyrells and Redwynes put up much resistance. Certainly no battle took place otherwise we would have heard about it.

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So this thus showed up at the current "I never noticed that"-thread:

I thought that I might bring it to attention here, perhaps there's some hidden hint in this as well?

Climbing roses: Lyanna

Abandoned stone tower: ToJ

?

In that scenario, I thought that the fact that the climbing roses are overgrowing the tower might have a meaning, but I'm not sure about what. Anyone?

The tower is gone, but the roses (possibly symbolizing Jon more than Lyanna in this case?) live on?

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