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Stubby

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Have you ever met a 7 month pregnant woman? Pretty mobil.

Also, none of it matters. Jon is born when Ned arrived. Dayne should have left with him immediately. They have fresh horse - Ned doesn't. Dayne knows Dorne - Ned doesn't.

A five minute head start is all he needed.

Running is protecting. They should have run.

They actually answer this in the conversation--KG do not flee. But more to the point, once they see Ned coming and see that he had only 7 people in total, I think they thought that their best chance was to stand up to the 7 and kill them. They needed all to die to keep the location secret (even if they leave, they are in danger if words gets out where they left from and when). The KG almost won--but for some special tricks from Howland. You may think the KG should have run, but they are not you. They thought staying was their best chance to protect Jon. You seem to be in the camp that believe that the KG intended to die that day once they saw Ned coming. I have had that debate before (perhaps including with you--cannot remember), but that argument makes no sense. Ned thinks of these KG as some of the best and Dayne as THE best Ned ever knew. There is NO chance that Ned would have this view if the KG decided to basically commit suicide rather than try to fulfill their primary duty to protect their king (presumably Viserys in this alternative version of events). It just makes no sense. How could standing there and dying be more honorable than trying to get to the rightful heir to the Targ throne?

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Yup. We forget they don't exactly have modern medicine! You don't want to kill the potential heir before it's even born, especially not if you're KG!

Exactly. The best recourse to ensure that the baby lives (and pray like hell that Lyanna pulls through) is stay put. Open road, in war time where you are the DEFEATED SIDE, with a sick woman, and a new born babe is not safer.

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Actually, Aegon II was the king, he had just lost King's Landing, and he was fleeing to Dragonstone. The King's Guards obeyed an order to let him make the journey with only a non-King's guard bastard knight to protect him.

I think you are referring to Aemond, who was the Regent becuase Aegon was to ill to rule, as the one who had Criston Cole with him. But Aemond didn't have Criston Cole with him. Aemond flew off into the Riverlands on a dragon while Cole marched his army south. Then Cole died, and no King's guards tried to find either Aemond or Aegon. They just kept following their last orders, as they were sworn to do.

Fred, I know the story, and they were, as far as anyone in King's Landing knew, together at that moment. Aemond wore the crown, and took command of the kingdom, while his brother recuperated. He had no designs on being king and keeping the throne after his brother recuperated, and was lothe to name himself king. That doesn't change the fact that those in King's Landing acted as though the king was elsewhere, and protected. ;)

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No, he doesn't. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys. Nothing is said about Elia, Aegon or Rhaenys.

The reason I don't think they know anything about Aegon is that I suscribe to the common belief that the Tower of Joy was not on a raven route. So messages came by horse or on foot.

Aerys' death became public knowledge immediately when it happened. Ned saw Aerys' body when it was still bleeding, as did numerous Lannister guardsmen and Northmen. So that news spread immediately.

However, the fate of Aegon was not known until a few days later. We know this because Robert was wounded on the Trident and he sent Ned ahead of him to King's Landing. Yet Ned did not find out about the fate of Aegon until Tywin presented the bodies to Robert.

I think the messenger who brought news of Aerys' death went to the Tower of Joy as soon as he or she heard the news. I don't think he or she returned to a raven-friendly place after delivering that news, got the news about Aegon, and then went back to the Tower of Joy before Ned arrived. I also think that if the King's guards thought Aegon was dead, it would have come up during their conversation with Ned. The absence of any mention of Aegon is very conspicuous.

Fred, why is it that some people don't realize that Robert arrived in King's Landing the same day that Ned did? The difference between being in the van and being in the tail of an army is not days.

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Have you ever met a 7 month pregnant woman? Pretty mobil.

Have you ever travelled on horseback? And have you ever taken into consideration problematic pregnancy?

Also, none of it matters. Jon is born when Ned arrived. Dayne should have left with him immediately. They have fresh horse - Ned doesn't. Dayne knows Dorne - Ned doesn't.

A five minute head start is all he needed.

You mean: Dayne should have left with Jon AND his wetnurse. Who may have never ridden a horse in all her life, not to mention a galloping one. - That's assuming that they had horses at ToJ at all, horses need quite a lot of water and fodder.

Plus, how far is the nearest water source? Where can he get supplies? Are the settlements on the way friendly, or does he have to avoid them not to be spotted?

And, what happens after Dayne leaves? It's 2 against 7, which makes their chances of survival far lower. What happens after they lose? Ned and the surviving company enter the tower, find Lyanna in her bed of blood... and the secret is blown, they know that she had given birth.

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Fred, why is it that some people don't realize that Robert arrived in King's Landing the same day that Ned did? The difference between being in the van and being in the tail of an army is not days.

Not to mention that this is pretty clear from the fact that Tywin presented the bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys to Robert and they were still fresh, not rotting as they would be after a couple of days in warm climate.

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Maybe Lyanna was sick and couldn't move? Who cares? We're talking about protecting the king here. Supposedly, other orders don't matter. The Kingsguard hung out for at least two months at the ToJ. Two months! Why? Run! Get to a port, you idiots!

If you know of some time markers that I am not aware of, would you please share them? I do know that Jonothor was standing guard with Jaime two weeks before the sack of King's Landing. So, Jonothor left with Rhaegar and died at the Trident, then Ned arrived at the sack in less than two weeks. We just know that sometime after the Battle of the Bells that Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar. We don't know how long that quest took, not how much before the roasting of Chelsted Rhaegar arrived in King's Landing. But it seems likely that the roasting was what has convinced Rhaegar that he needs to take some steps, as he says to Jaime.

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Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

Two months is the minimum amount of time Ned took to march an army down to Storm's End and then ride to the Tower of Joy. And that's assuming the actual lifting the seige at Storm's End took no time at all, Ned found out where the ToJ was immediately and that Ned never got lost along the way.

Sorry, GRRM concedes that travel time is really iffy in the books. See my earlier post about Jonothor going to the trident Trident and the sack being within a span of two weeks. Looking at a map, it is pretty easy to say that Ned could have gone to Storm's End and then to the tower in less than two weeks. We know that he must arrive no more than 3 and one-half weeks after the sack. We also know that there was a corronation and Ned fighting with Robert before he left for Storm's End,

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6. Barristan Selmy makes a point of saying in Dance with Dragons that King's guards protection can be extended to mistresses and bastards. How will this matter to the story if it isn't a reference to the Tower of Joy?

Here is the quote you are referencing:

"The FIRST duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the KING'S commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the KING'S choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some KING'S thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides." ADwD Pg. 737 Hardcover

The bold and all caps was added by me.

Fred, read ADwD again. I knew you were mistaken and I haven't read the book in almost a year. Rhaegar is NEVER referred to as king. They didn't have to keep his commands and even if he had the authority to tell the Kingsguard to protect his mistress and bastard before his death, their first duty is to the rightful king and any other orders are secondary.

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If you know of some time markers that I am not aware of, would you please share them? I do know that Jonothor was standing guard with Jaime two weeks before the sack of King's Landing. So, Jonothor left with Rhaegar and died at the Trident, then Ned arrived at the sack in less than two weeks. We just know that sometime after the Battle of the Bells that Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar. We don't know how long that quest took, not how much before the roasting of Chelsted Rhaegar arrived in King's Landing. But it seems likely that the roasting was what has convinced Rhaegar that he needs to take some steps, as he says to Jaime.

I explained this a few posts back.

Ned waits for Bob, organizes troops and heads to Storm's End (minimum 4 weeks on foot). He lifts the seige, finds out where Lyanna is and rides through mountains to find her (minimum four weeks by horse).

And these are really minimum times.

So, in order for Jon=King to work, the following must occur:

1) Rhaegar and Lyanna found a person to perform a polygamous marriage despite it going against the Faith of the Seven and the Faith of the Old Gods (for some reason)

2) All three of the KG agreed that Lyanna is the wife of Rhaegar despite a polygamous marriage that goes against the Faith of the Seven (for some reason)

3) Hightower decides to stay at the Tower despite being ordered to bring Rhaegar back (for some reason).

4) After Rhaegar leaves, the KG decide that the best plan of action is to stay at the Tower with a 5-month pregnant Lyanna (for some reason)

5) Ater KL falls, the KG decide that a 7-month pregnant Lyanna cannot travel (for some reason)

6) After Jon in born, the KG decide that the baby cannot travel (for some reason)

7) When Ned arrives, the KG decide that its best not to negotiate with him, but fight him (for some reason)

8) The KG decide the best way to fight Ned is to be outside rather than in a tower (for some reason).

Or you can simply believe the alternatives:

Rhaegar ordered them.

They were protecting secrets.

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I explained this a few posts back.

Ned waits for Bob, organizes troops and heads to Storm's End (minimum 4 weeks on foot). He lifts the seige, finds out where Lyanna is and rides through mountains to find her (minimum four weeks by horse).

And these are really minimum times.

So, in order for Jon=King to work, the following must occur:

1) Rhaegar and Lyanna found a person to perform a polygamous marriage despite it going against the Faith of the Seven and the Faith of the Old Gods (for some reason)

2) All three of the KG agreed that Lyanna is the wife of Rhaegar despite a polygamous marriage that goes against the Faith of the Seven (for some reason)

3) Hightower decides to stay at the Tower despite being ordered to bring Rhaegar back (for some reason).

4) After Rhaegar leaves, the KG decide that the best plan of action is to stay at the Tower with a 5-month pregnant Lyanna (for some reason)

5) Ater KL falls, the KG decide that a 7-month pregnant Lyanna cannot travel (for some reason)

6) After Jon in born, the KG decide that the baby cannot travel (for some reason)

7) When Ned arrives, the KG decide that its best not to negotiate with him, but fight him (for some reason)

8) The KG decide the best way to fight Ned is to be outside rather than in a tower (for some reason).

Or you can simply believe the alternatives:

Rhaegar ordered them.

They were protecting secrets.

1) Rhaegar is Targaryen. Polygamy is just not practiced as of late. The High Septon will do whatever the heck the crown tells him to do. There are no priests in the religion of the Old Gods. Who will object? Also: Meribald looks like a good candidate to marry them in the light of the 7. The faith of the Old Gods does not require a priest, as I said

2) See above.

3) His orders were to FIND Rhaegar but there is no mention of Aerys ordering Hightower to return WITH Rhaegar. Once Hightower delivers the message, Rhaegar is well within his right as Heir Apparent to order Hightower to stay.

4) I think many of us have adequately explained both the timing issue and the pregnancy issue.

5) See # 4

6) See #4

7) Someone else explain that one a page or so back. They don't trust him.

8) I think fighting inside a tower would be harder. Less space to run?

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I had a minor timing revelation, and I want to share it.



We know that Jon was born either two weeks before or two weeks after the sack because he is eight to nine months older than Daenerys. We know that puerperal fever kills in five to ten days after birth (majority of the time, 90+%). We know that Rhaella left King’s Landing about a week after Daenerys was conceived. We know that there was two weeks between Daenerys’ conception and the sack of King’s Landing. That means that the fight at the tower of joy took place between a week before the sack to three and one-half weeks after. (Non-sensible timing included, the key is that there must not be more than three and one-half weeks after the sack before Ned arrives.) We know that Ned arrives at the sack to see Jaime seated on the throne, which is what he did immediately after killing Aerys. We know that the bodies of the children are presented to Robert as coronation gifts, and that Ned fought with Robert about the children and not sending Jaime to the Night’s Watch. (Important because Robert cannot forgive Jaime until after the coronation, which seems to logically be the day of the sack or the day following. Add in that the crimson of the Lannister cloaks was to conceal the blood, which it would not do if the blood was not fresh, and it seems very likely to be the same day.)



Now that I have laid the ground work, Hightower is sent to find Rhaegar after the Battle of the Bells. Do we have anything better than that? We don’t know how long Hightower searched before finding the tower. Now things tighten up, though. Rhaegar returned to King’s Landing and observed his father’s roasting of Chelsted. That would be where the light went on, and lead to his remarks to Jaime about doing something after he returned from the war. Rhaegar and Jonothor (and many others) went to the Trident no more than two weeks before the sack. (Jon can be born now, but not likely.) I wonder if Arthur and Oswell have made it back to the tower of joy, yet. They should be careful to avoid revealing where they are going or being followed. Another question, did Rhaegar have a dragon dream that inspired him to find Glover in the Black Cells and confide in him the location of Lyanna before leaving for the Trident? Lyanna is in her third trimester, and no, they are not going to be travelling with her. Even if they were prescient and knew that Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, and nearly every Targaryen was going to die within weeks.



This all hints to me that Hightower found Rhaegar at the tower very late in the war. I am thinking that she is more than seven months pregnant when he does find them. That Rhaegar traps Hightower into staying seems to be the most logical reason for him to reappear there when Ned arrives. Arthur and Oswell could have just recently returned to the tower when Ned arrives, too. We don’t have any good time markers for any of this. We simply know that the Battle of the Bells was about nine months before the sack. Robb is older than Jon by two to four weeks.


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1) Rhaegar is Targaryen. Polygamy is just not practiced as of late. The High Septon will do whatever the heck the crown tells him to do. There are no priests in the religion of the Old Gods. Who will object? Also: Meribald looks like a good candidate to marry them in the light of the 7. The faith of the Old Gods does not require a priest, as I said

2) See above.

3) His orders were to FIND Rhaegar but there is no mention of Aerys ordering Hightower to return WITH Rhaegar. Once Hightower delivers the message, Rhaegar is well within his right as Heir Apparent to order Hightower to stay.

4) I think many of us have adequately explained both the timing issue and the pregnancy issue.

5) See # 4

6) See #4

7) Someone else explain that one a page or so back. They don't trust him.

8) I think fighting inside a tower would be harder. Less space to run?

1-2) The Targaryens changed their practice to placate the Faith of the Seven. Targs can't just do anything they want. People are religious in this world and the church has influence. This was a huge issue during the Blackfyre rebellion. The Faith was against legitimized bastards. Thus, the kingdom split in two.

Rhaegar's marriage looks like a Wildling ceremony (kidnapping) if anything. The point being, three KG who are all believers in the Faith of the Seven would have to accept a polygamous marriage as legit.

3) I thought KGs need to protect the King? He should have gone back to KL, not stay with the 4th in line.

4-6) No, you didn't. Your explanation is: GRRM plays fast and loose with distances. But, this is waaaaaay fast and loose. You're ignoring this because you have a belief and are rejecting information that is contrary to your belief. It's called confirmation bias.

7) Don't trust Jon's uncle not to murder him? Without a discussion?

8) This is why towers are built. To have higher ground and advantage in batttle. It's their whole function.

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1-2) The Targaryens changed their practice to placate the Faith of the Seven. Targs can't just do anything they want. People are religious in this world and the church has influence. This was a huge issue during the Blackfyre rebellion. The Faith was against legitimized bastards. Thus, the kingdom split in two.

Rhaegar's marriage looks like a Wildling ceremony (kidnapping) if anything. The point being, three KG who are all believers in the Faith of the Seven would have to accept a polygamous marriage as legit.

3) I thought KGs need to protect the King? He should have gone back to KL, not stay with the 4th in line.

4-6) No, you didn't. Your explanation is: GRRM plays fast and loose with distances. But, this is waaaaaay fast and loose. You're ignoring this because you have a belief and are rejecting information that is contrary to your belief. It's called confirmation bias.

7) Don't trust Jon's uncle not to murder him? Without a discussion?

8) This is why towers are built. To have higher ground and advantage in batttle. It's their whole function.

1) The Faith is against legitimizing bastards sounds like a PERFECT reason why R and L married, doesn't it? Rhaegar wants a third child for prophetic reasons. He knows what happens when bastards are legitimized (Blackfyre). Solution: marry Lyanna.

Looks like is different from IS. To the rest of the world who believe the same story that Robert Baratheon believes, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, carried her off, raped her, and got a child on her. But that is not what happened, or so many of us believe. If Lyanna went willingly, married Rhaegar, had his son through natural intercourse (ie: not rape) then it's not a Wildling wedding AT ALL.

3) There are KG in KL who are protecting the King. Hightower has no way of knowing that Jamie is going to kill Aerys

4-6) And you're ignoring that GRRM himself has stated that he doesn't pay strict attention to time and distance. You're also ignoring the realities or pregnancy. Also: see MntLion's really well thought out time scenario.

7) In Ned's mind, until he enters that tower and talks to Lyanna, we don't know what he knew or didn't know. In his mind, Rhaegar abducted and raped his sister and these three men helped. Are the KG supposed to try and tell Ned that Lyanna went willingly and married the guy?

8) *shrug* I'm not a battle expert, hence why it was a question. And we don't ,as yet, know how the battle played. Only that all but 2 died.

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7) Don't trust Jon's uncle not to murder him? Without a discussion?

Nope, they absolutely don't. Remember, he's Robert's best friend. Robert just usurped the throne and his henchmen killed the other two kids. We know Ned because we've read his POV chapters and we know he doesn't kill innocent children. The KG don't know that! They are not going to hand over the fucking king to one of the other side's leaders, no way no how. No matter how sweetly he promises. His duty is to Robert and would require him to hand Jon over to Robert. They don't know he's going to put love above duty. They just don't. As I've said before, even Lyanna isn't 100% sure what Ned will do, and she knows him much better than the KG do; if she was sure, she wouldn't make him promise.

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I explained this a few posts back.

Ned waits for Bob, organizes troops and heads to Storm's End (minimum 4 weeks on foot). He lifts the seige, finds out where Lyanna is and rides through mountains to find her (minimum four weeks by horse).

And these are really minimum times.

So, in order for Jon=King to work, the following must occur:

1) Rhaegar and Lyanna found a person to perform a polygamous marriage despite it going against the Faith of the Seven and the Faith of the Old Gods (for some reason)

2) All three of the KG agreed that Lyanna is the wife of Rhaegar despite a polygamous marriage that goes against the Faith of the Seven (for some reason)

3) Hightower decides to stay at the Tower despite being ordered to bring Rhaegar back (for some reason).

4) After Rhaegar leaves, the KG decide that the best plan of action is to stay at the Tower with a 5-month pregnant Lyanna (for some reason)

5) Ater KL falls, the KG decide that a 7-month pregnant Lyanna cannot travel (for some reason)

6) After Jon in born, the KG decide that the baby cannot travel (for some reason)

7) When Ned arrives, the KG decide that its best not to negotiate with him, but fight him (for some reason)

8) The KG decide the best way to fight Ned is to be outside rather than in a tower (for some reason).

Or you can simply believe the alternatives:

Rhaegar ordered them.

They were protecting secrets.

I will try this one more time (not that I really think you are capable of being convinced--maybe not even by GRRM himself):

1) We don't know what kind of marriage they had--it might have been a Northern marriage in front of a Weirwood tree. They also could have paid off a traveling Septon or not even told the Septon that the marriage was polygamous. Given the existence of prior polygamous marriages, no mention of them them being outlawed (even by GRRM who simply says they became more difficult after loss of dragons but more difficult means still possible) and Rhaegar's need for a third head (as well as other reasons I have gone into in other threads in the past), a polygamous marriage is quite believable under the circumstances. If I find it logical, what makes you so sure GRRM would not find it logical?

2) There is zero chance that the KG would question the marriage--no matter their personal beliefs. Targaryens have had polygamous marriages in the past--none questioned--and they ahve had incestuous marriage (Rhaegar's parents) and never has anyone suggested that the marriages were not real marriages. KG, who are sworn to the Targ dynasty, will not put their personal views of polygamy ahead of Rhaegar's determination to have a polygamous marriage--no chance.

3) We can pretty much surmise the reason Hightower stays--which has been explained before by others. Hightower locates Rhaegar and tells him that Aerys needs Rhaegar to lead the battle at the Trident. Rhaegar cannot risk Hightower letting Aerys know about Lyanna yet because Aerys would order Hightower to get her and bring her as a hostage. Rhaegar tells Hightower that Rhaegar will go back to KL if Hightower stays at ToJ, allowing Hightower to fulfill his duties to Aerys without risking Lyanna and the baby. Rhaegar makes Hightower promise to stay at ToJ until Rhaegar gets back, and Hightower agrees. This set of circumstances is fairly logical to me. No leaps of logic are necessary.

4) I have explained ad nauseum why it was logical to stay at ToJ. They had no better plan. They thought the secret location would remain a secret. It had (other than Hightower) remained secret for a long time. There is no reason to believe that the KG would have definitely had access to a better plan.

5) As noted by many others, by the time they find out about the sack of KL, Lyanna was likely closer to 8 or maybe even 9 months pregnant. But even at 7 months, travel under those conditions definitely risked miscarriage. And as noted in point 4 above, there really was no reason to leave ToJ until they could be certain to have a safe route.

6) I don't know whether they thought that Jon could or could not travel--Lyanna could not travel. Leaving his mother behind is not a good plan--especially because they believed their location was still a SECRET.

7) No chance the KG would negotiate with Ned--zero percent. Ned is the second in command for the enemy rebels. He is the best friend of the Usurper. What would be the point of negotiation? They could not trust him in any event. They needed to keep the location secret, and the only way to do that would be to kill all 7 rebels.

8) Again, they needed to kill all 7 to keep the secret location safe. Trying to lure them into the tower is not a good plan for that goal because one of them is too likely to get away. The KG needed to go out and confront Ned's group together and try to kill all of them. Luring them into the tower was not really an option given that the goal was not really to defend the tower per se, but to kill Ned and the other six so that no one could retreat and give away the location.

Most of these explanations have been given to you many times before. If you are going to keep raising points that have been countered before, at least try to attempt to explain why you don't accept the prior explanations rather than seem to act like you have never been presented with them before.

Now to your alternatives:

Rhaegar ordered them. Yes, I agree, Rhaegar ordered them. But it is absolutely implausible and inconsistent with everything else we have been told--about the duties of the KG and Ned's view of these 3, Dayne in particular, and our knowledge of Hightower sticking to the rules explicitly--to believe that following a dead Rhaegar's orders to guard Lyanna and the baby at ToJ superseded their main duty to guard the king. At a minimum, one of them would have left for Dragonstone. But all 3 staying simply cannot be consistent with the logic of merely following the orders of a dead prince if the rightful king is without a KG on Dragonstone. While you might find this logical, very few others seems to find this logical (although admittedly, you are not alone, but you are in a small minority).

They were protecting secrets. What secrets are you talking about? The only real secret I know of that Rhaegar would need guarded (assuming no marriage) is the existence of Lyanna's baby. As you pointed out in past posts, if the main goal is to keep Jon safe, you think they should have left with Jon after Lyanna gives birth. While I disagree with you, you cannot have it both ways. If the main goal is to keep this secret, then you leave with Jon--maybe you even kill Lyanna (who seems to be dying in any event) and bury her so no sign of the birth can be found. I am not sure I follow you, but if you mean another secret--what secret do you mean? And how does staying at ToJ make them better able to keep the secret than leaving ToJ?

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1) The Faith is against legitimizing bastards sounds like a PERFECT reason why R and L married, doesn't it? Rhaegar wants a third child for prophetic reasons. He knows what happens when bastards are legitimized (Blackfyre). Solution: marry Lyanna.

Looks like is different from IS. To the rest of the world who believe the same story that Robert Baratheon believes, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, carried her off, raped her, and got a child on her. But that is not what happened, or so many of us believe. If Lyanna went willingly, married Rhaegar, had his son through natural intercourse (ie: not rape) then it's not a Wildling wedding AT ALL.

3) There are KG in KL who are protecting the King. Hightower has no way of knowing that Jamie is going to kill Aerys

4-6) And you're ignoring that GRRM himself has stated that he doesn't pay strict attention to time and distance. You're also ignoring the realities or pregnancy. Also: see MntLion's really well thought out time scenario.

7) In Ned's mind, until he enters that tower and talks to Lyanna, we don't know what he knew or didn't know. In his mind, Rhaegar abducted and raped his sister and these three men helped. Are the KG supposed to try and tell Ned that Lyanna went willingly and married the guy?

8) *shrug* I'm not a battle expert, hence why it was a question. And we don't ,as yet, know how the battle played. Only that all but 2 died.

1) If you accept the Faith of the Seven is important than why are you ignoring the fact that the Faith is against polygamy? And 3 KG are followers of the Faith?

3) Than why is Hightower standing there holding his dick? He's not ordered and he's not protecting?

4) This is beyond strict. You guys want to turn two months into one week.

7) Yeah, sound's smart. Talk to him. Queen's brother and king's uncle. Seems reasonable to talk to him.

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Skinchanging Sweetrobin: First let me say that I absolutely love your videos. You go a little crackpot at times, and you fully acknowledge that, but you highlight connections and inconsistencies that are very revealing about what's hidden in the text.



That being said, I can tell already that I am going to hate your ToJ video. (I'll still watch it and *like* it of course)



From SS: So, in order for Jon=King to work, the following must occur:



1) Rhaegar and Lyanna found a person to perform a polygamous marriage despite it going against the Faith of the Seven and the Faith of the Old Gods (for some reason)



Why on earth wouldn't we believe this to be the case when the KG act in a way that almost only makes sense if Jon is king?



2) All three of the KG agreed that Lyanna is the wife of Rhaegar despite a polygamous marriage that goes against the Faith of the Seven (for some reason)



If they did get married, we have absolutely no reason to believe they would not agree.



3) Hightower decides to stay at the Tower despite being ordered to bring Rhaegar back (for some reason).



I don't know if I understand this one. We don't know exactly what happened between KL and the tower or what he knew and when.



4) After Rhaegar leaves, the KG decide that the best plan of action is to stay at the Tower with a 5-month pregnant Lyanna (for some reason)



You're putting way too fine a point on the timeline of her pregnancy and Rhaegar may have, with all 7 KG still alive and loyal, have assigned 2 to the ToJ for his wife.



5) Ater KL falls, the KG decide that a 7-month pregnant Lyanna cannot travel (for some reason)



There's every reason to suspect that an infirm woman who ultimately died in childbirth was too much of a risk to move.



6) After Jon in born, the KG decide that the baby cannot travel (for some reason)



Lyanna was their queen if she married Rhaegar. They wouldn't just abandon her. She may have (probably did) only very recently given birth.



7) When Ned arrives, the KG decide that its best not to negotiate with him, but fight him (for some reason)



Here's the part where they're protecting Rhaegar's secrets, which you love to introduce as a reason. Negotiations means giving those secrets up to Ned, the second in command of a rebellion wantonly slaughtering Targaryens.



8) The KG decide the best way to fight Ned is to be outside rather than in a tower (for some reason).



I'm not a combat strategist, but we just don't know enough about the circumstances to discuss the merits of their approach to the actual combat. If anything, this strikes me as a part of the dream that might not be absolutely reliable.



Taken as a whole, the above scenario is not just reasonable, it's really the ONLY scenario that jives with what we know. It doesn't strain credulity in the least.



Or you can simply believe the alternatives:



Rhaegar ordered them.



He ordered them before he knew that he, Aerys, and Aegon would be dead. His dynasty was in utter peril. I absolutely cannot believe that the KG would prioritize an outdated order to protect two scarcely relevant people over the survival of the dynasty. If they're guarding two scarcely relevant people, they're doing it for Rhaegar the man, not Rhaegar the king, and thus would not be crowing about their KG status. I can't believe it, and I don't think anyone should believe it. If they still call themselves KG, the dynasty is their concern. Someone would have gone to Viserys. Any other interpretation has a steep burden of proof to bear, and no other theory does, IMHO.



They were protecting secrets.



Protecting his secrets is part and parcel with everything that has to do with R+L=legit J. Of course they were protecting his secrets, BUT if Jon is not the legit heir, there isn't even much of a secret to protect. Jon being the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is what gives the secret its gravity.



And you know all about these travel times. You've done a great deal of research about distances and time line. You probably know about as much about it as any living man, but unfortunately, that includes GRRM and that's the problem. He has left these timelines and travel times vague and ambiguous partially by design.



I still think there's a drastic mistake being made in all of these threads concerning the KG's valuation of a 283 year old Targaryen dynasty. Most R+L=/= legit J proponents do not give the dynasty any weight. I think this is not only a big mistake; I think it is absolutely ridiculous. If they aren't concerned with the dynasty first and foremost, they aren't KG and if they aren't KG, they aren't concerned about the dynasty first and foremost. We know they are KG and we know that if they are concerned first and foremost with the dynasty that they, at least one of them, belongs with Viserys.



I honestly don't believe there's any way to get around this.


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