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He ordered them before he knew that he, Aerys, and Aegon would be dead. His dynasty was in utter peril. I absolutely cannot believe that the KG would prioritize an outdated order to protect two scarcely relevant people over the survival of the dynasty. If they're guarding two scarcely relevant people, they're doing it for Rhaegar the man, not Rhaegar the king, and thus would not be crowing about their KG status. I can't believe it, and I don't think anyone should believe it. If they still call themselves KG, the dynasty is their concern. Someone would have gone to Viserys. Any other interpretation has a steep burden of proof to bear, and no other theory does, IMHO.

This is a great summing-up. If they're acting as KG, and if Ned remembers them afterward as men who were determined to keep their vows (even if the dream wording was inexact), then they have to be protecting a king. Sure, a group of KG might conceivably defend a prince's mistress and bastard because the prince asked them to, but then all the hammering of the point that They! Are! Kingsguard!, Dammit! would not be in there.

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1) "Changing the practice to placate the Faith" is complete and utter bullshit, totally disregarding everything that has been said about the Targ polygamy. For one, changing the practice would actually mean doing it more frequently because polygamy was UNUSUAL and not done very often. Plus, when asked about polygamy, GRRM NEVER stated anything about the Faith requiring such a change, on the contrary, we keep getting references how the Faith closes the eyes for the Targaryens and does as told.



2) Yes, towers are defensive structures. However, fight at close quarters also has its disadvantages (remember the show Oberyn in the brothel?), and the choice between open grounds and close quarters depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to survive and hold the place as long as possible, it is the tower. If you need to make sure that your enemies get engaged in fight and don't send anyone for reinforcements...


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1) "Changing the practice to placate the Faith" is complete and utter bullshit, totally disregarding everything that has been said about the Targ polygamy. For one, changing the practice would actually mean doing it more frequently because polygamy was UNUSUAL and not done very often. Plus, when asked about polygamy, GRRM NEVER stated anything about the Faith requiring such a change, on the contrary, we keep getting references how the Faith closes the eyes for the Targaryens and does as told.

2) Yes, towers are defensive structures. However, fight at close quarters also has its disadvantages (remember the show Oberyn in the brothel?), and the choice between open grounds and close quarters depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to survive and hold the place as long as possible, it is the tower. If you need to make sure that your enemies get engaged in fight and don't send anyone for reinforcements...

1) This is what Martin said. Without dragons, they needed to placate the Faith:

However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

2) No bows, eh? Man, that was dumb of them. It's like they weren't even trying.

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1) This is what Martin said. Without dragons, they needed to placate the Faith:

However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

2) No bows, eh? Man, that was dumb of them. It's like they weren't even trying.

Read the quote carefully--I addressed this in a prior post on this thread today. GRRM uses the words "decreased markedly" not "ceased to exist" or "disappeared" or "no longer could be done." But even at that, they still have incestuous marriages which obviously the Faith overlooked and accepted. Rhaegar had no choice and past practiced showed that if a Targ violated rules that others could not violate, the Targ got away with it. Rhaegar needed the third head. Lyanna would not have agreed to be a mistress. Elia could not have a third child. Why do you find these explanations unpersuasive? You simply keep saying the same thing without really addressing the point being made to you. GRRM planted the idea of Targ polygamy but that it fell out of fashion. He then sets up a situation where Rhaegar needs a second wife, but leaves the situation shrouded in mystery to the reader who is only told of an abduction and eventual death of Lyanna. Why are you so convinced that the issue of the Faith precludes a polygamous marriage for Rhaegar given these other factors? You have never explained that clearly--you just keep say "the Faith, the Faith" as if it answers the issue when it does not. GRRM gives so many clues that Targs are not limited by these rules, including Rhaegar's parents being siblings. Why would a polygamous marriage that Rhaegar would have perceived as necessary to fulfill a prophesy be so hard for you to accept?

What is your point about the bows and arrows? I don't think KG are even trained in bows and arrows, but even if they are, so what? No matter what they were doing at ToJ, if bows and arrows would have been a better way to defend ToJ, they should have had them no matter what they were doing (following orders, keeping secrets, whatever). What does this issue have to do with anything?

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1) This is what Martin said. Without dragons, they needed to placate the Faith:

However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

2) No bows, eh? Man, that was dumb of them. It's like they weren't even trying.

Decreased markedly does not mean that the Targaryen's cannot defy The Faith, full stop. It means it's harder. But not impossible. The High Septon has a tendency to go along with the crown because he likes being High Septon.

So in an AU thought experiment: Rhaegar brings Lyanna to KL after she's given birth. He has the word of 2 KG that they were married by a traveling septon in the riverlands; maybe there is also a wedding cloak or some sort of documentation. The High Septon sputters a bit about polygamy; Rhaegar gives him a choice: approve this marriage or I get a new High Septon. High Septons, as we have seen quite a bit in more recent events up to the High Sparrow, like 1) their cushy job 2) their food and 3) their head on their shoulders. Worried about the Northern Lords? married in front of tree, so that's all well and good. Again, witnessed by Dayne and Whent.

As to your bows comment: Who is to say they didn't have them? But Dayne is widely regarded as the best swordsman and I'm going to assume that Hightower and Whent aren't exactly slackers in this regard. In other words, it's not their best option because they are SUPERB swordsmen

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It's a good thing Aerys and Rhaelle had dragons then, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to get incest-married.



The only thing that has ever been clear from the text is that polygamy is unusual. Never has it been unlawful. Never has it been explicitly forbidden by the faith of the seven. And of course, if Rhaegar's marriage was an "Old Gods" ceremony, we know that they don't have a problem with polygamy. One thing that we can be pretty sure of though: Dayne Whent, and Hightower are not particularly likely to reject the marriage in any case. That's what loyalty means. Rhaegar wanted two wives like Aegon the conqueror. It certainly wasn't their place to say no. Just like they didn't say no to Aerys raping Rhaelle. Just like they didn't say no to Aerys murdering Rickard and Brandon. Just like all the KG who came before them very rarely if ever said no to any monarch at any time.


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1) This is what Martin said. Without dragons, they needed to placate the Faith:

However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object.

2) No bows, eh? Man, that was dumb of them. It's like they weren't even trying.

1) What you say is not what GRRM says. The Targs still had dragons long after Maegor, yet didn't practice polygamy, i.e. those two things had nothing in common (and funny how the Targs still managed to defy the convention and Faith even without dragons with their incest)

2) No catapults, either. How dumb of them not to have taken these along when going on a kidnapping business. Also, they should have dug an escape route to the mountains. - BTW, neither Yoren nor Amory Lorch used bows in that fight of the holdfast.

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Decreased markedly does not mean that the Targaryen's cannot defy The Faith, full stop. It means it's harder. But not impossible. The High Septon has a tendency to go along with the crown because he likes being High Septon.

So in an AU thought experiment: Rhaegar brings Lyanna to KL after she's given birth. He has the word of 2 KG that they were married by a traveling septon in the riverlands; maybe there is also a wedding cloak or some sort of documentation. The High Septon sputters a bit about polygamy; Rhaegar gives him a choice: approve this marriage or I get a new High Septon. High Septons, as we have seen quite a bit in more recent events up to the High Sparrow, like 1) their cushy job 2) their food and 3) their head on their shoulders. Worried about the Northern Lords? married in front of tree, so that's all well and good. Again, witnessed by Dayne and Whent.

As to your bows comment: Who is to say they didn't have them? But Dayne is widely regarded as the best swordsman and I'm going to assume that Hightower and Whent aren't exactly slackers in this regard. In other words, it's not their best option because they are SUPERB swordsmen

What's important is how Hightower, Whent and Dayne felt. They are believers in the Faith and for Jon=King to work, all three needed to say "polygamous marriage? No problem. Let's go and die."

It's a good thing Aerys and Rhaelle had dragons then, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to get incest-married.

And how did Aerys rule turn out? Even before he was "crazy," the entire kingdom was conspiring to get rid of him. I'm not saying that that's the only issue, but it probably did give him a negative mark among people out there.

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1) If you accept the Faith of the Seven is important than why are you ignoring the fact that the Faith is against polygamy? And 3 KG are followers of the Faith?

3) Than why is Hightower standing there holding his dick? He's not ordered and he's not protecting?

4) This is beyond strict. You guys want to turn two months into one week.

7) Yeah, sound's smart. Talk to him. Queen's brother and king's uncle. Seems reasonable to talk to him.

  1. You are going to need to produce something to support that assertion. As far as I know the faith of the seven is definitely against incest, finding it particularly abhorrent. Yet, Aerys and Rhaella were wed by them, as brother and sister.

. . .

Hightower is clearly in command.

I gave you supporting references for my timing interpretations. Try to find something that refutes it in the text. Don't go all visceral and say, "it can't be right, it just doesn't feel right."

. . .

. . .

Talk to Ned, they certainly did. The conversation is bounded by honor, Ned avoids direct confrontation, or direct questions about what they are specifically doing at the tower. He offers them a chance to surrender, and when they refuse, he even offers them a chance to go to Dragonstone. It is quite clear in the dialog. Ned does not know for sure that Lyanna is present during the dialog, and it does not make sense to him that the Kingsguard would be protecting her. He never brings it up, as far as we know. It is quite possible that things were said that are not in Ned's dream, but Ned's dream contains the salient points for his opinion of these knights. "They were a wonder, a shining example for all the world."

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What's important is how Hightower, Whent and Dayne felt. They are believers in the Faith and for Jon=King to work, all three needed to say "polygamous marriage? No problem. Let's go and die."

And how did Aerys rule turn out? Even before he was "crazy," the entire kingdom was conspiring to get rid of him. I'm not saying that that's the only issue, but it probably did give him a negative mark among people out there.

It's not at all important how they felt. Like HIGHTOWER says to Jamie, "You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him" They make no judgements on what Rhaegar did.

EDIT: really? the entire kingdom? All of them? Every single high house and the small folk too?

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And how did Aerys rule turn out? Even before he was "crazy," the entire kingdom was conspiring to get rid of him. I'm not saying that that's the only issue, but it probably did give him a negative mark among people out there.

A completely unbased assertion.

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What's important is how Hightower, Whent and Dayne felt. They are believers in the Faith and for Jon=King to work, all three needed to say "polygamous marriage? No problem. Let's go and die."

And how did Aerys rule turn out? Even before he was "crazy," the entire kingdom was conspiring to get rid of him. I'm not saying that that's the only issue, but it probably did give him a negative mark among people out there.

Why do you think they would let their personal views come into play at all? They don't question the marriage of Aerys and Rhaella, do they, even though incest is against their religion? You keep ignoring this incest counter-argument. And you keep ignoring that GRRM said decreased not eliminated. Please try to focus on the arguments people are making and explain clearly why you are not persuaded.

What does Aerys going crazy have to do with whether his marriage to his sister was recognized as a real marriage? There are many reasons people wanted to overthrow Aerys. The fact that his wife was also his sister was never one of them. Again, please try to keep the logic of your arguments addressed to the issue at hand rather than random side-tracked musings.

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What's important is how Hightower, Whent and Dayne felt. They are believers in the Faith and for Jon=King to work, all three needed to say "polygamous marriage? No problem. Let's go and die."

And how did Aerys rule turn out? Even before he was "crazy," the entire kingdom was conspiring to get rid of him. I'm not saying that that's the only issue, but it probably did give him a negative mark among people out there.

Interesting how so many people were fighting for him during the entire rebellion, then.

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Once Jon rides a dragon, all these R+L= J discussions to prove his legit goes right out the window.



Anyways, Daenerys will bend the knee to King Jon, The Dragon...


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86094-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up-part-2/page-7#entry5980392



The Dragon that she dreamt of before her dragons hatched...




There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud.


Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid …





The same crackling flames spoke to Melisandre...




The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow









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Skinchanging Sweetrobin: It's also telling that Ned Stark- the epitome of die with honor before living without it, would look with admiration at these three KG who, rather than talk it out with Ned, thus selling out Rhaegar's secrets, died with honor. But you judge them for being dumb, the very same way so many people judge Ned for being dumb, because of his unyielding concern for his honor.


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Skinchanging Sweetrobin: It's also telling that Ned Stark- the epitome of die with honor before living without it, would look with admiration at these three KG who, rather than talk it out with Ned, thus selling out Rhaegar's secrets, died with honor. But you judge them for being dumb, the very same way so many people judge Ned for being dumb, because of his unyielding concern for his honor.

Ned feels that way about Barristan as well, but we have seen Barristan alter his vows to his personal desires (what I call "Barristaning"). Ned may not have all the info (not a shock).

There are so many addional mysteries and inconsistancies about the ToJ, I just think its way too early to make a call on Jon=King.

The whole thing just doesn't make too much sense at this point.

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