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Or the KG at the ToJ learned about the Trident, the fleeing to DS, and the Sack all at the same time.

I think this is probably it. The Trident happened pretty soon before the Sack, yes? Something like two weeks-ish. And if Rhaegar had been the one to send the men news, and he's dead, then their news is going to be moving much more slowly. It makes more sense in hindsight if they learned everything at the same time, because otherwise, it doesn't explain why they wouldn't have gone to protect Aerys (if they thought he was undefended) or to Dragonstone (if they thought Viserys was or could be the king). Their actions suggest that they learned of Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar's deaths at the same time, and that they learned about the deaths after Jon was born or very very soon before he was born (i.e. they knew he was a boy and/or figured Lyanna was close enough to delivery that it was smarter to just wait).

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I don't think anybody's claiming it's 2-6 weeks; it's more like the 3 to 10 days you mention later.

The baby being born is implied in all the wordplay in the dream (which is not completely accurate, but the meaning is sound.)

What makes you think there weren't any servants or anything? You'd pretty much have to have some kind of support system there. Midwife, maester, heck, a cook because they've got to be eating something and I doubt the Sword of the Morning was cooking for them every day. :D Of course they'd have to be really, really trusted servants, and not that many, but that explains the "they."

This isn't the first time I've seen it implied that there's pretty much nothing there except the poor woman giving birth in an empty tower with no assistance, and there isn't evidence for that IMO. The other day, someone was thinking there wasn't any food there, and that just isn't possible; there was a group of people living there for about a year. GRRM might never fill in for us who was doing the equivalent of the grocery shopping, but they must have had some amenities.

The ToJ is a dream. Lyanna's death is a memory.

The bed of blood is used elsewhere to refer to childbirth. If that term extends through the post pregnancy bleeding, the term covers 2 to 6 weeks. 3 to 10 days is the timeframe for the fever.

The bigger the staff and support system becomes. the less secret the location becomes. But to go further is to delve into speculation.

Assumptions of greater secrecy lead to assumptions of fewer staff.

But you are right, there is a whole bunch missing from the scene or at least not specified.

One will end up "proving" whatever he or she set out to prove. Again that will really be that one wishes to prove something.

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she died of puerperal fever (infection of the birth canal), she likely died 3-10 days AFTER giving birth, meaning that Jon was born 3-10 days before

she died,

as Lyanna died immediately following the showdown on that day

Are you not aware you made that up out of thin air. Or do you not think anybody would notice that you made that up out of thin air?

The infection can be associated with continued bleeding (part of why the women die)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever

The part of bleeding being a symptom is not in there... it is a risk factor of fever but not a symptom... If you were using another source or have different information it would be helpful.

and so the bed of blood also is literal in that Lyanna cannot stop bleeding no matter how often they change the linen. She just keeps making them bloody as she keeps bleeding to death.

you now are claiming she died of blood loss and not fever. If you would like to include http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_hemorrhage that would be fine. However the death from that is pretty quick.

If you are referring to normal bleeding after birth... that lasts from 2 to 6 weeks but would only produce a "bed of blood" if allowed to accumulate for 2 to 6 weeks... and that is just gross.

It seems likely that a wetnurse was there at the time--probably Wylla.

again this is made up

If you add a midwife and a wetnurse, and reasonable sanitation.... the KG were trying to protect the Jon. The only problem is that you did... Nothing in the text hints the KG did.

I really don't see where you get the idea they were trying to kill Jon. It would have been very easy for any of the KG to just kill him if they wanted to--it is a bizarre suggestion

If we take what is in the text, and add Jon's birth before the ToJ... we are left with 3 KG that took no precautions and secured no assistance for a dying mother. They also took no steps to care for the baby when his mother died. That is wreckless to the point of homicidal.

But we added in the birth, why not add in a midwife, and a wetnurse.... did they knit him booties and buy him a pony too?

the KG are obsessed with doing their duty. What is the prime duty of the KG? To guard the king

Fans are obsessed with making Jon legitimate. Their prime duty...making up prime duties to support it and anything else that is required to get them to the conclusion they so desparately want. (this also includes ignoring obvious facts that do not allow a specific piece of the puzzle to provide "proof")

I found a cite for you on puerperal fever--look at http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/p/puerperal_fever/symptoms.htm. According to this source, symptoms include foul-smelling vaginal discharge and abnormal vaginal bleeding. So there you have your literal bed of blood.

As far as Lyanna dying the same day, what else can Ned's vision mean? Here is the quote from the Wiki: "Eddard recalls that he and Howland Reed were the only survivors. In the tower Lyanna was dying and claimed a promise from Eddard just before she died. " If Lyanna had not been dying when Ned arrived at ToJ, he would have taken her away. Here is the quote from the synopsis of the chapter: "Ned is awoken from the dream in the midst of making a promise to his dying sister Lyanna after the battle." So I think it is pretty clear that Lyanna died shortly after the battle--thus the same day as the battle. I did not make that up. The text supports this notion very strongly.

You say I made up a wetnurse. Well, perhaps, but it is a logical conclusion. We know that some people think Wylla was Jon's mother (Robert). We know that those at Starfell referred to Wylla as his wetnurse (Edric Dayne). We know that Lyanna was very sick but Jon somehow got fed enough to live. We also know that others were at the ToJ (there is a reference to "they" coming in when Lyanna dies and Howland is the only other known person at ToJ still alive, so having a wetnurse would be consistent--here is the quote: "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body, silent with grief."). Thus, someone other than just Ned and Howland was there at the time. So while I don't have direct textual proof of a wetnurse, there is pretty good circumstantial evidence.

I am not sure what to make of your statements regarding them trying to kill Jon. What are you suggesting? That you don't think Jon was there at all? That Lyanna died of something unrelated to childbirth? That Lyanna's promise had nothing to do with Jon? I just cannot follow your logic. If the KG wanted Jon dead--Jon would be dead. If you don't think Jon was in ToJ, then you need to do more research on this question than I have patience for at this moment (the OP for this thread has tons of links that go through all the proof that Jon was at ToJ). You don't know what they did to try to save Lyanna and protect Jon. You don't know what they thought there options were. They were stuck at a secret location with a dying woman and an infant. About half (maybe more) of Westeros was out to kill them. What should they have done differently?

Finally--making up prime duties? What are you referring to? Here are some quotes from the wiki:

The Kingsguard, also known poetically as the White Swords or White Cloaks, are the royal bodyguards of the Iron Throne. Supposedly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms, they are sworn to protect their king and the royal family with their own lives, to obey his commands, and to keep his secrets. They are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife, or fathering children.

In order to protect the royal family night and day, the seven-man Kingsguard must rely to some degree on others. Prince Joffrey has his own sworn shield, Sandor Clegane, other knights are trusted with the king's security when the entire Kingsguard meets in White Sword Tower, and the queen may be guarded by soldiers from her own household (as Cersei has Vylarr and his red cloaks).

I think these quotes make it pretty clear that family members other than the king may be guarded by someone other than a KG. But the KG always guard the king--"they are sworn to protect their king and the royal family . . ." So while the second quote shows that family members other than the king could have non-KG protecting them, there is no such reference for the King (except when all 7 are meeting in the White Sword Tower--but that separation from the king is only very temporary). Their very name--Kingsguard--suggests their prime duty. If a KG is not assigned to guard the king, the KG are not doing their duty. I think there are other quotes that suggest that the king needs at least one KG for the KG to be doing their duty, but I cannot find them now. I think what I found from the wiki is pretty good evidence.

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Rhaegar could not have ordered the KG to remain at the ToJ without a member of the royal family present. Unless, Raegar was married to Lyanna, she was not a member of the royal family.

What about Aerys ordering Prince Lewyn to take command of the Dornish troops? Was there a member of the royal family there that he was protecting?

ETA: We readers do not know to what degree Rhaegar could order the KG. To say otherwise is, frankly, bullshit.

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I found a cite for you on puerperal fever--look at http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/p/puerperal_fever/symptoms.htm. According to this source, symptoms include foul-smelling vaginal discharge and abnormal vaginal bleeding. So there you have your literal bed of blood.

As far as Lyanna dying the same day, what else can Ned's vision mean? Here is the quote from the Wiki: "Eddard recalls that he and Howland Reed were the only survivors. In the tower Lyanna was dying and claimed a promise from Eddard just before she died. " If Lyanna had not been dying when Ned arrived at ToJ, he would have taken her away. Here is the quote from the synopsis of the chapter: "Ned is awoken from the dream in the midst of making a promise to his dying sister Lyanna after the battle." So I think it is pretty clear that Lyanna died shortly after the battle--thus the same day as the battle. I did not make that up. The text supports this notion very strongly.

You say I made up a wetnurse. Well, perhaps, but it is a logical conclusion. We know that some people think Wylla was Jon's mother (Robert). We know that those at Starfell referred to Wylla as his wetnurse (Edric Dayne). We know that Lyanna was very sick but Jon somehow got fed enough to live. We also know that others were at the ToJ (there is a reference to "they" coming in when Lyanna dies and Howland is the only other known person at ToJ still alive, so having a wetnurse would be consistent--here is the quote: "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body, silent with grief."). Thus, someone other than just Ned and Howland was there at the time. So while I don't have direct textual proof of a wetnurse, there is pretty good circumstantial evidence.

I am not sure what to make of your statements regarding them trying to kill Jon. What are you suggesting? That you don't think Jon was there at all? That Lyanna died of something unrelated to childbirth? That Lyanna's promise had nothing to do with Jon? I just cannot follow your logic. If the KG wanted Jon dead--Jon would be dead. If you don't think Jon was in ToJ, then you need to do more research on this question than I have patience for at this moment (the OP for this thread has tons of links that go through all the proof that Jon was at ToJ). You don't know what they did to try to save Lyanna and protect Jon. You don't know what they thought there options were. They were stuck at a secret location with a dying woman and an infant. About half (maybe more) of Westeros was out to kill them. What should they have done differently?

Finally--making up prime duties? What are you referring to? Here are some quotes from the wiki:

The Kingsguard, also known poetically as the White Swords or White Cloaks, are the royal bodyguards of the Iron Throne. Supposedly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms, they are sworn to protect their king and the royal family with their own lives, to obey his commands, and to keep his secrets. They are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife, or fathering children.

In order to protect the royal family night and day, the seven-man Kingsguard must rely to some degree on others. Prince Joffrey has his own sworn shield, Sandor Clegane, other knights are trusted with the king's security when the entire Kingsguard meets in White Sword Tower, and the queen may be guarded by soldiers from her own household (as Cersei has Vylarr and his red cloaks).

I think these quotes make it pretty clear that family members other than the king may be guarded by someone other than a KG. But the KG always guard the king--"they are sworn to protect their king and the royal family . . ." So while the second quote shows that family members other than the king could have non-KG protecting them, there is no such reference for the King (except when all 7 are meeting in the White Sword Tower--but that separation from the king is only very temporary). Their very name--Kingsguard--suggests their prime duty. If a KG is not assigned to guard the king, the KG are not doing their duty. I think there are other quotes that suggest that the king needs at least one KG for the KG to be doing their duty, but I cannot find them now. I think what I found from the wiki is pretty good evidence.

Thanks for the cite.. Now I know more than I did before... cant ever get enough of foulsmelling discharge you know..

Sepsis is the cause of death from the fever... postpartum hemmorage would be from bloodloss.

did she die from fever or from blood loss?

If Lyanna had not been dying when Ned arrived at ToJ, he would have taken her away

Depends on how close to giving birth she was.

There is not a timeframe given from the showdown to Lyanna's death. Those that want to see KG means king present put it earlier. Those that do not put it later. Both are trying to make uncertainty into proof.

"Ned is awoken from the dream in the midst of making a promise to his dying sister Lyanna after the battle. the synopsis of Ned chapter 39

That is from the synopsis, not the book.

The showdown part of the dream ends with Ned sadly saying... No now it ends

Then it gets kind of trippy

Then it shifts to Lyanna saying Lord Eddard.

then it shifts to promise me...

Then Ned is woken up by somebody calling him Lord Eddard

In Ned's memory of her death... Lyanna says "Ned" promise me...

Taking an interuppted trippy dream while under the influence of milk of the poppy as proof..... yes Lyanna absolutely died on the day of the showdown...

Sorry for saying you made it up... you based it on an interrupted dream of a person under the influence of narcotics

Thankyou for admitting that you made up the wetnurse. With any sort of evidence of care for a baby, the KG were not trying to kill him.

Finally--making up prime duties? What are you referring to? Here are some quotes from the wiki:

The Kingsguard, also known poetically as the White Swords or White Cloaks, are the royal bodyguards of the Iron Throne. Supposedly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms, they are sworn to protect their king and the royal family with their own lives, to obey his commands, and to keep his secrets. They are sworn for life and are forbidden from owning land, taking a wife, or fathering children.

Thank you for providing a list that does not have a prime duty. It also has "and the royal family" tacked at the end of king.

I think these quotes make it pretty clear that family members other than the king may be guarded by someone other than a KG. But the KG always guard the king--"

other knights are trusted with the king's security when the entire Kingsguard meets in White Sword Tower

you used the word "always" to describe a quote that says "not always" you did however point out later that there are exceptions to always. But then you completely made up --but that separation from the king is only very temporary)

Their very name--Kingsguard--suggests their prime duty.

now you just inserted PRIME DUTY, and you managed to do that from two lists with neither PRIME or DUTY in them.

If a KG is not assigned to guard the king, the KG are not doing their duty.

You drop off royal family and insert duty...making up prime duties? What are you referring to?

How about I was referring to

their prime duty.

and

If a KG is not assigned to guard the king, the KG are not doing their duty

I think there are other quotes that suggest that the king needs at least one KG for the KG to be doing their duty, but I cannot find them now. I think what I found from the wiki is pretty good evidence.

what you found combined with what you wrote was pretty good evidence of making up prime duties

If you would like quotes relating to "the first duty of the Kingsguard is to guard the king" you will find them from Jamie Lannister. He scolded the KG when he returned to KL commenting on how they had lost 2 kings in his absence.

If you would like to apply that to the KG at the ToJ feel free. However the KG at the ToJ, like the men Jamie was scolding had lost two kings. You would also be trying to justify the actions of the KG at the ToJ using the opinions of a man they dubbed "our false brother."

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[snip]

So what is your theory? I just cannot follow your logic of what you think happened and why the 3 KG were at ToJ.

P.S. By the way, I admitted that I made a logical conclusion that there was a wetnurse from a lot of circumstantial evidence--not quite the same as an unqualified admission.

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What about Aerys ordering Prince Lewyn to take command of the Dornish troops? Was there a member of the royal family there that he was protecting?

ETA: We readers do not know to what degree Rhaegar could order the KG. To say otherwise is, frankly, bullshit.

Kings orders, king's secrets, protect king and royal family....

I never claimed they always have to be protecting king or royal family....

they can also be obeying the king's orders... as in the case of prince Lewyn

or keeping his secrets.

I was saying KG at the ToJ were doing one of the vows

I then excluded obeying kings orders

keeping kings secrets..

what remains is protecting the royal family... princess Lyanna

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Kings orders, king's secrets, protect king and royal family....

I never claimed they always have to be protecting king or royal family....

they can also be obeying the king's orders... as in the case of prince Lewyn

or keeping his secrets.

I was saying KG at the ToJ were doing one of the vows

I then excluded obeying kings orders

keeping kings secrets..

what remains is protecting the royal family... princess Lyanna

You will open yourself to technical vulnerability in wording if you say that.

The vow is to the crowned king and not the prince. Which make their stand at the TOJ even more of great importance, because in their eyes the boy is the heir to the throne after learning the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys, and presumably, Aegon.

Rhaegar can order the 3KGs to stay and guard Lyanna, but upon his death his orders does not trump their priority to guard the King or the true heir to the crown--Aegon, and if he's dead, Viserys in Dragonstone.

The 3KGs have no right to stay and guard Lyanna and her baby boy, the Kingsguard have no sworn loyalty, duty and vow to them, if they are not legitimate.

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So what is your theory? I just cannot follow your logic of what you think happened and why the 3 KG were at ToJ.

P.S. By the way, I admitted that I made a logical conclusion that there was a wetnurse from a lot of circumstantial evidence--not quite the same as an unqualified admission.

My theory is that Lyanna's death scene and the showdown at the ToJ are ambiguous.

If I start with a desire to see R married L, I will find it.

If I start to disprove it... I will disprove it.

If that is the case then all one can really prove is that he or she really wants to prove a point. The more levels you go down only shows how determined you are.

You called a spade a spade or a shovel as the case may be. You asserted you had good reason for thinking there was a wetnurse, while stating there is no explicit wetnurse.

I think R and L were in love I think J is their child

I think the KG at the ToJ prove something very important to R was there

I think the vow that LC explained was a vow to R to defend the tower

I think Ned was present for Jon's birth

I think Ned promised to raise Jon as his son

I think J is the prince that was promised

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You will open yourself to technical vulnerability in wording if you say that.

The vow is to the crowned king and not the prince. Which make their stand at the TOJ even more of great importance, because in their eyes the boy is the heir to the throne after learning the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys, and presumably, Aegon.

Rhaegar can order the 3KGs to stay and guard Lyanna, but upon his death his orders does not trump their priority to guard the King or the true heir to the crown--Aegon, and if he's dead, Viserys in Dragonstone.

The 3KGs have no right to stay and guard Lyanna and her baby boy, the Kingsguard have no sworn loyalty, duty and vow to them, if they are not legitimate.

If the KG were not guarding My princess Lyanna.... they never could be guarding Your king Jon..

now prove Jon was born before the showdown,

now prove when the KG learned of Rhaegar. Aerys and Aegon's deaths

Rhaegar can order the 3KGs to stay and guard Lyanna,

Where is this in the text?.... oh wait it is not in a text of aSoIaF...

but upon his death his orders does not trump

Where is this in the text?.... oh wait it is not in a text of aSoIaF...

their priority to guard the King or the true heir

Where are the big words above in the text?.... oh wait they are not in a text of aSoIaF..

The 3KGs have no right to stay and guard Lyanna and her baby boy,

well you made up the rules about princes being able to order KG and the orders given are valid until the prince is dead. Why not now make up rights of the KG or lack thereof. you can even make a baby out of a interrupted narcotic induced dream.

the Kingsguard have no sworn loyalty, duty and vow to them, if they are not legitimate.

if you have fictioned your way this far it is just a little bit further. and there we go...

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I think R and L were in love I think J is their child

I think the KG at the ToJ prove something very important to R was there

I think the vow that LC explained was a vow to R to defend the tower

I think Ned was present for Jon's birth

I think Ned promised to raise Jon as his son

I think J is the prince that was promised

After how many pages today, not to mention how many pages over the past week in the other KG thread and I think we actually agree on some things...how startling.

I disagree that Ned was present for Jon's birth. I think the continual bleeding plus the fever means she was sick for a few days after giving birth and that's what weakened her and killed her. And I would add that R and L are married--something I didn't believe until I joined this forum and started talking to people in this thread, btw.

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After how many pages today, not to mention how many pages over the past week in the other KG thread and I think we actually agree on some things...how startling.

I disagree that Ned was present for Jon's birth. I think the continual bleeding plus the fever means she was sick for a few days after giving birth and that's what weakened her and killed her. And I would add that R and L are married--something I didn't believe until I joined this forum and started talking to people in this thread, btw.

the biggest thing we have to connect Lyanna's death to the showdown is a drug influenced dream that gets interuppted.. Neds chapter 39

it actually could have happened after..

Here is why I think Ned was at the birth

Blood

Ned doesnt relate Blood to combat or executions

He links Blood to Lyanna and later to Aegon ... a woman and baby... though in the latter blood is mentioned because it does not show on the red shrouds.... just wanted to be complete

I could use a bunch of specific examples... if you ask I will....

But other than that, just think about Ned's reaction to Lyanna's blood.... and then ask yourself if the association is merely due to dirty linnen

I have no doubt the fever killed Lyanna 3 to 10 days after she gave birth.... I just dont think Ned was that creeped out by laundry..

The fever and bleeding would have allowed Ned to look away.... Delivering a baby means Ned had to look at it...

I think R and L were married

Just not according to the faith of the 7 or the laws of the seven kingdoms (that is pretty much the same thing.)

Old gods,,, yes married... according to the prophecy,,, yes married... according to the red god,,, yes married

the gods i mentioned seem to place blood over blessing and emotion over ceremony....

there are too many technicalities in thinking about them being married according to a faith that neither of them followed----

R and L were in love is much more important than R married L

.... Tywin reminded Cersei she would not be the first woman to be marched to a sept and married aganst her will...

Married does not equal not kidnapped and raped... in fact married (other than in front of a heart tree no witnesses required) is kidnapped, married, raped... Why would Lyanna ever go to a sept? Unless R made her go..

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If the KG were not guarding My princess Lyanna.... they never could be guarding Your king Jon..

So that we're cleared, it is your stance that you believe Lyanna was married to Rhaegar, right? because that's what I believe, so we don't have any disagreement here at all.

now prove Jon was born before the showdown,

now prove when the KG learned of Rhaegar. Aerys and Aegon's deaths

Where is this in the text?.... oh wait it is not in a text of aSoIaF...

Where is this in the text?.... oh wait it is not in a text of aSoIaF...

Where are the big words above in the text?.... oh wait they are not in a text of aSoIaF..

I can't prove them, because it's not written in the text. Would we have R+L=J in its 86th version if it were so? It would be a mere fact and common knowledge, there won't be any mystery at all.

well you made up the rules about princes being able to order KG and the orders given are valid until the prince is dead. Why not now make up rights of the KG or lack thereof. you can even make a baby out of a interrupted narcotic induced dream.

if you have fictioned your way this far it is just a little bit further. and there we go...

It seems that you can't stand people with assumptions based on hidden meaning, granted, it's based on faith and theories. But that's what basically all comes down to it, theories and discussions, so just as you're able to believe that Jon isn't the rightful heir to the throne, based on insufficient data in the text, I on the other hand, think the opposite. That based on the text so far written in the 5 books (not just Ned's dream), it's enough for me, personally to be convinced that Jon is that baby in that tower, the rightful heir to the IT of the Targaryen line, the person that caused Ned's burden through out AGOT whenever he thinks of him and his sister.

I'm basing on no evidence or fiction, it was written in such a way that made sense for me. I was a hardcore Ned+Ashara = Jon theory fan, argued a lot of early R+L= legitimate Jon theory, but it was too much, I conceded that there was no defending N+A=J when push comes to shove. As the current stance of the 5 books, GRRM has impressed me with enough clues and hints that Jon will be the rightful King in the end.

Will we get that payoff? I don't know, but with enough foreshadowing, hints and clues, and him mentioning that he won't change the story midstream, I'll still defend that theory, until we read it in the text otherwise.

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the biggest thing we have to connect Lyanna's death to the showdown is a drug influenced dream that gets interuppted.. Neds chapter 39

it actually could have happened after..

And here's the part everyone forgets: it's an old dream. This is not the first time Ned has had THIS dream. This dream is repeating itself and has been since Lyanna died.

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What makes you think there weren't any servants or anything? You'd pretty much have to have some kind of support system there. Midwife, maester, heck, a cook because they've got to be eating something and I doubt the Sword of the Morning was cooking for them every day. :D Of course they'd have to be really, really trusted servants, and not that many, but that explains the "they."

This isn't the first time I've seen it implied that there's pretty much nothing there except the poor woman giving birth in an empty tower with no assistance, and there isn't evidence for that IMO. The other day, someone was thinking there wasn't any food there, and that just isn't possible; there was a group of people living there for about a year. GRRM might never fill in for us who was doing the equivalent of the grocery shopping, but they must have had some amenities.

Oh, but there were three KG. One was chopping the rabbit with his greatsword, one was emptying the chamberpots, one was washing Lyanna's undies.

And here's the part everyone forgets: it's an old dream. This is not the first time Ned has had THIS dream. This dream is repeating itself and has been since Lyanna died.

Believe me, not everyone. Just the detractors.

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My theory is that Lyanna's death scene and the showdown at the ToJ are ambiguous.

If I start with a desire to see R married L, I will find it.

If I start to disprove it... I will disprove it.

If that is the case then all one can really prove is that he or she really wants to prove a point. The more levels you go down only shows how determined you are.

You called a spade a spade or a shovel as the case may be. You asserted you had good reason for thinking there was a wetnurse, while stating there is no explicit wetnurse.

I think R and L were in love I think J is their child

I think the KG at the ToJ prove something very important to R was there

I think the vow that LC explained was a vow to R to defend the tower

I think Ned was present for Jon's birth

I think Ned promised to raise Jon as his son

I think J is the prince that was promised

Funny how you ask others to prove their theories but you haven't provided any proof or textual evidence for your theories. Just calling a spade a spade. You state Ned was with Lyanna while she gave birth to Jon. Now, prove that.

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And here's the part everyone forgets: it's an old dream. This is not the first time Ned has had THIS dream. This dream is repeating itself and has been since Lyanna died.

I am not sure about the end there...

after Ned says now it ends.... it gets kind of mixed up Lyanna calls Ned "Lord Eddard." Then guy waking Ned up calls him Lord Eddard....

If that was Lyanna calling to Ned during the showdown... it was the only time she ever called him Lord Eddard--- at a Harrenhal it was Ned at her death it was Ned.

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Funny how you ask others to prove their theories but you haven't provided any proof or textual evidence for your theories. Just calling a spade a spade. You state Ned was with Lyanna while she gave birth to Jon. Now, prove that.

I said I think Ned was with Lyanna while she gave birth to Jon

I can't prove what I think. But I can tell you why I think it

Blood

Ned doesnt relate Blood to combat or executions

He links Blood to Lyanna and later to Aegon ... a woman and baby... though in the latter blood is mentioned because it does not show on the red shrouds.... just wanted to be complete

I could use a bunch of specific examples... if you ask I will....

But other than that, just think about Ned's reaction to Lyanna's blood.... and then ask yourself if the association is merely due to dirty linnen

The fever and bleeding would have allowed Ned to look away.... Delivering a baby means Ned had to look at it...

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I said I think Ned was with Lyanna while she gave birth to Jon

I can't prove what I think. But I can tell you why I think it

Blood

Ned doesnt relate Blood to combat or executions

He links Blood to Lyanna and later to Aegon ... a woman and baby... though in the latter blood is mentioned because it does not show on the red shrouds.... just wanted to be complete

I could use a bunch of specific examples... if you ask I will....

But other than that, just think about Ned's reaction to Lyanna's blood.... and then ask yourself if the association is merely due to dirty linnen

The fever and bleeding would have allowed Ned to look away.... Delivering a baby means Ned had to look at it...

OK now you've completely lost me with dirty linens and delivering baby meant Ned had to look at it. I'm not sure but I think women continue to bleed days after their pregnancy. You can stretch your imagination and associate Ned's thoughts with delivering babies but you can't possibly accept the theory that there were 3 KG (including Mr stickler for the rules, Hightower himself) at the tower because they were in their minds fulfilling their primary duty as a KG in protecting an already born Jon, their King.

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The recurrent troll(s) of joy :rolleyes: #joy





OK now you've completely lost me with dirty linens and delivering baby meant Ned had to look at it. I'm not sure but I think women continue to bleed days after their pregnancy. You can stretch your imagination and associate Ned's thoughts with delivering babies but you can't possibly accept the theory that there were 3 KG (including Mr stickler for the rules, Hightower himself) at the tower because they were in their minds fulfilling their primary duty as a KG in protecting an already born Jon, their King.





They can bleed up to 4 weeks (personal experience).


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