R+L = J v 86

[Consigliere]

That's the thing, though - if we are looking at KG and their duty to the king in black and white, the entire ordeal is hollow. When Jaime slashed Aerys' throat in KL and Robert assumed the throne, there was no Targaryen king for them to serve. As KG, Robert was now their king to which they should show fealty. If they were true KG strictly upholding vows, the second they heard of Aerys' death they should have returned to KL to serve Robert Baratheon or agree to take the black, to hell with Lyanna and her kid who is not king.

They didn't do that. They stayed behind, and called Robert "Usurper." But, but, he is now their king!!! They are KG!!! Ergo, they did not uphold their oath to serve the king. Barristan did, these 3 did not. Why not? Personal loyalty. Black and white just turned grey.

Actually they were strictly upholding their vows. Once they learn of Aerys and Aegons deaths, their rightful king was at the ToJ. Hence why they don't try to get to Viserys.

[Ygritte]

That's not how loyalty works. Allegiance is to the house and bloodline, not to the office. What Barristan did was a rational choice, at the time when he really had no agenda of his own, being injured and held captive. Those three followed their vows to the bitter end, bringing the ultimate sacrifice instead of the rational choice which they were offered, and this is why Ned thinks Arthur Dayne the finest knight ever and not Barristan.

Yup. Ned thinks Barristan's choice was acceptable but that the ToJ KG's was the ideal.

[Aeron_Damphair]

And speaking of, what prompts KG to serve a dynasty, anyway? They don't serve dynasties. They serve kings. The only thing compelling them to serve a dynasty is personal loyalty.

I just could not possibly disagree more. A king is his dynasty. If they let his dynasty fall after he dies, they are not kingsguard. It should be very well understood. It's kind of an intuitive thing, but an obvious one. If it needs to be explained to you, you probably never will get it. I don't think it should need to be explained to anyone.

Besides that, why would they presume that the protection of the king's heir wouldn't be the most important thing to the dead king? Why would you presume that?

[PrettyPig]

No, no, no, no. In their eyes, the rules for who becomes king is clear. Robert was not heir to the throne and was not declared king by a Grand Council.

Well in that case, Jon isn't king either.

Ohhhh, but I see. So the KG can make personal judgment calls about who is king and who their oath binds them to serve regardless of what is actually happening in the realm.

[BearQueen87]

Robert is king by conquest, not by blood (nitpick: he would be, I suppose, if all of Aerys's heir were wiped out since Robert is 1/4 Targ) but the fact is, Aerys's heir were not wiped out and the KG are following the bloodline. After Aerys, it's Rhaegar (DEAD). After Rhaegar is Aegon (DEAD). After Aegon it's JON (if you believe that Jon is legit). Legit Jon is alive. The KG protect the king. Just like as soon as Robert dies, his KG all swear to Joffery. And when Joffery dies, they swear to Tommen.

[Ygritte]

Well in that case, Jon isn't king either.

Ohhhh, but I see. So the KG can make personal judgment calls about who is king and who their oath binds them to serve regardless of what is actually happening in the realm.

I think the Grand Council is for when there is no clear heir. The ones at the ToJ see a clear heir, and no council overriding that.

[Black Crow]

Ultimately its not a question of legitimacy or rights but about Varys' story about the King, the Bishop and the Banker.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Yup. Ned thinks Barristan's choice was acceptable but that the ToJ KG's was the ideal.

But Ned certainly doesn't have all the pieces.

This is what frustrates me about the whole Jon=King argument.

Whether anyone is king is opinion. We have so many issues that cloud who is "rightfully" king. Stupid people have been passed over. Crazy people have been passed over. Legitimized bastards have been passed over. Women have been passed over. Unlikable people have been passed over.

Jon's situation is full of these questions, yet so many are certain what these 3 KG believed because Ned happened to respect them.

Who knows why Ned respected them and who knows if Ned view is actually what they thought.

Ned might believe Jon=King and thinks that's why the KG were there, but the KG actually had different motives.

I just could not possibly disagree more. A king is his dynasty. If they let his dynasty fall after he dies, they are not kingsguard. It should be very well understood. It's kind of an intuitive thing, but an obvious one. If it needs to be explained to you, you probably never will get it. I don't think it should need to be explained to anyone.

I don't think a 300 year dynasty would be very impressive to these houses that are thousands of years old. They're upstarts.

[Aeron_Damphair]

Ultimately its not a question of legitimacy or rights but about Varys' story about the King, the Bishop and the Banker.

Not to a KG it isn't. To a sellsword, yes, and he's the subject of the riddle, if I'm not mistaken. To a KG, it is the King.

[Aeron_Damphair]

I don't think a 300 year dynasty would be very impressive to these houses that are thousands of years old. They're upstarts.

It doesn't matter what those houses think. It only matters what the KG think.

[PrettyPig]

I just could not possibly disagree more. A king is his dynasty. If they let his dynasty fall after he dies, they are not kingsguard. It should be very well understood. It's kind of an intuitive thing, but an obvious one. If it needs to be explained to you, you probably never will get it. I don't think it should need to be explained to anyone.

I disagree with your disagreement, and no, I don't need your explanation...guess I'll just muddle through until one day my feeble brain will hopefully comprehend, thanks.

If they swear an oath for life, they swear to protect that king, and the king after him, and the king after him. Obviously it is like a US Supreme Court situation whereas the reigning monarch is going to appoint people who will reflect/support his dynastic interests, but if they serve for life they are expected to uphold that service regardless to who/what family it might be for.

[Consigliere]

Well in that case, Jon isn't king either.

Ohhhh, but I see. So the KG can make personal judgment calls about who is king and who their oath binds them to serve regardless of what is actually happening in the realm.

Assuming R+L= legitimate J the the line of succession is as follow:

Rhaegar - dead

Aegon - dead

Jon

Viserys

So no, personal judgement does not come into it. The KG were obeying the line of succession for the dynasty they swore to serve.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

It doesn't matter what those houses think. It only matters what the KG think.

Which we have no idea of. What we do know is Hightower's house is thousands and thousands of years old.

I don't see how the length of the Targaryen dynasty relates to the KG's feelings and opinions.

[Black Crow]

It doesn't matter what those houses think. It only matters what the KG think.

But that's the point. The King is the King only for as long as people, starting with his guard, believe that he is.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Assuming R+L= legitimate J the the line of succession is as follow:

Rhaegar - dead

Aegon - dead

Jon

Viserys

So no, personal judgement does not come into it. The KG were obeying the line of succession for the dynasty they swore to serve.

Rhaegar - dead

Aegon - dead

Viserys and fetal something from maybe a polygamous marriage

[Consigliere]

Which we have no idea of. What we do know is Hightower's house is thousands and thousands of years old.

I don't see how the length of the Targaryen dynasty relates to the KG's feelings and opinions.

The Targaryen dynasty is tied to the KG. The KG did not exist before the conquest.

Rhaegar - dead

Aegon - dead

Viserys and fetal something from maybe a polygamous marriage

Sorry Jon is before Viserys, whether you like it or not.

[Aeron_Damphair]

I disagree with your disagreement, and no, I don't need your explanation...guess I'll just muddle through until one day my feeble brain will hopefully comprehend, thanks.

The USA is only 238 years old. Targ dynasty 283. You don't think people have American pride?

Yeah, you're right. At the ToJ, the KG don't specifically mention the dynasty. They only talk about being KG. I can't fathom how their KG status has any relevance if they aren't protecting the heir (read: dynasty).

You can poo poo the dynasty all you want, it doesn't make any sense to do so.

If the dynasty doesn't continue, Rhaegar's secrets have no value, and no need for protection.

If they're simply guarding his lover, they are not kingsguard, they are Rhaegar's buddies.

Just because concern for the dynasty isn't plastered all over the page doesn't mean it isn't there. There is no reasonable way, taking everything into account, that anything could be more important.

KG vows are taken for life- not the king's life, the KG's life. That tells you right there what their responsibility is.

[nothatso]

Rhaegar - dead

Aegon - dead

Viserys and fetal something from maybe a polygamous marriage

Though I'm unsure if there is a precedent for an unborn child inheriting over its uncle in the series, one very significant historical example comes to mind. When Alexander III "The Great" died, he left only a pregnant wife Roxana and no legitimate heir. The Diadochi (Alexander's generals and family) decided to wait until the child was born before passing the kingship on. If it were a boy, he would be heir, if it were a girl, kingship would pass to Alexander III's half (but legitimate) brother Philip. A boy was born (Alexander IV) and he inherited.

Of course later the Diadochi all started fighting each other, Alexander IV and Roxana were murdered, and Philip (as Philip III) claimed kingship before he himself was killed at the order of Alexander the Great's mother, Olympias. :uhoh:

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

The USA is only 238 years old. Targ dynasty 283. You don't think people have American pride?

Yeah, you're right. At the ToJ, the KG don't specifically mention the dynasty. They only talk about being KG. I can't fathom how their KG status has any relevance if they aren't protecting the heir (read: dynasty).

You can poo poo the dynasty all you want, it doesn't make any sense to do so.

If the dynasty doesn't continue, Rhaegar's secrets have no value, and no need for protection.

If they're simply guarding his lover, they are not kingsguard, they are Rhaegar's buddies.

Just because concern for the dynasty isn't plastered all over the page doesn't mean it isn't there. There is no reasonable way, taking everything into account, that anything could be more important.

KG vows are taken for life- not the king's life, the KG's life. That tells you right there what their responsibility is.

If I were from an 8000 year old house, I wouldn't really care about the relative short length of a dynasty. And there were KGs before the Targs. Seven of them, in fact. But this is neither here nor there.

Anyway, the Targ dynasty carries on regardless of the ToJ, through Viserys, then Dany, then Robert, then Stannis, then Renly.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Though I'm unsure if there is a precedent for an unborn inheriting over its uncle in the series, one very significant historical example comes to mind. When Alexander III "The Great" died, he left only a pregnant wife Roxana and no legitimate heir. The Diadochi (Alexander's generals and family) decided to wait until the child was born before passing the kingship on. If it were a boy, he would be heir, if it were a girl, kingship would pass to Alexander III's half brother Philip. A boy was born (Alexander IV) and he inherited.

Of course later the Diadochi all started fighting each other, Alexander IV and Roxana were murdered, and Philip (as Philip III) claimed kingship before he himself was killed at the order of Alexander the Great's mother, Olympias. :uhoh:

It does get murky. The point I was making is that the KG didn't know if it was a boy or girl yet, so there was a 50% chance they were guarding the wrong person or fetus.