R+L = J v 86

[Black Crow]

I agree. There's no indication in the text that the battle was a long one and its worth bearing in mind that if we follow real world mediaeval precedents the very high number of casualties suffered by the royal army is consistent with it being a relatively brief clash followed by a long and bitter pursuit. Comparatively few people died fighting in mediaeval battles, most of them died running away afterwards.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I posted this on here yesterday as well, but that was shortly before a 9-page discussion started, so I think it got burried underneath all the other posts, so I'm going to repost it :)

So this thus showed up at the current "I never noticed that"-thread:

I thought that I might bring it to attention here, perhaps there's some hidden hint in this as well?

Climbing roses: Lyanna

Abandoned stone tower: ToJ

?

In that scenario, I thought that the fact that the climbing roses are overgrowing the tower might have a meaning, but I'm not sure about what. Anyone?

Any ideas?

[Ygritte]

I debated whether to put this in "I just noticed this" or here, and finally decided on here.

I just reread the part in ASOS where Jon and the Watch battle the wildlings at the Wall, and when Aemon is encouraging Jon to take charge, he calls him a "son of Winterfell" and "nephew of Benjen Stark." Both of which, of course, are still absolutely true even if he's Lyanna's son and not Ned's. :D I've always wondered what Aemon knows and how he knows it.

[J. Stargaryen]

I posted this on here yesterday as well, but that was shortly before a 9-page discussion started, so I think it got burried underneath all the other posts, so I'm going to repost it :)

Any ideas?

A subtle linguistic parallel to the ToJ for sure. GRRM seems to like using this technique.

I debated whether to put this in "I just noticed this" or here, and finally decided on here.

I just reread the part in ASOS where Jon and the Watch battle the wildlings at the Wall, and when Aemon is encouraging Jon to take charge, he calls him a "son of Winterfell" and "nephew of Benjen Stark." Both of which, of course, are still absolutely true even if he's Lyanna's son and not Ned's. :D I've always wondered what Aemon knows and how he knows it.

I don't think Aemon actually knows who Jon is. Remember that he believes Dany is the last Targaryen.

[IceFire125]

I debated whether to put this in "I just noticed this" or here, and finally decided on here.

I just reread the part in ASOS where Jon and the Watch battle the wildlings at the Wall, and when Aemon is encouraging Jon to take charge, he calls him a "son of Winterfell" and "nephew of Benjen Stark." Both of which, of course, are still absolutely true even if he's Lyanna's son and not Ned's. :D I've always wondered what Aemon knows and how he knows it.

Aemon knows something special with Jon, but doesn't have the eyes to see (physically and figuratively).. however..

You are doing him a great wrong. Jon Snow was Lord Mormont’s own steward and squire. He was chosen for that duty because the Lord Commander saw much promise in him. As do I.

He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne... The old man felt Jon’s face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done.

Before reaching the Wall, here's Tyrion's foreshadowing thoughts on Jon...

Tyrion felt sorry for the boy (Jon). He had chosen a hard life (by taking the black) … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.

And finally, we come full circle with Rhaegar...

Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it.

The Great Council will choose Jon to mount the Iron Throne. Jon will not like it, he will take no pleasure in it, but he must do it.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think Aemon actually knows who Jon is. Remember that he believes Dany is the last Targaryen.

I think he knows that Jon is special and has a role to play in the future. When he learns of the dragons, Aemon thinks of Dany as TPTWP but he also leaves Jon with references to Lightbringer/AAR. Now, part of this is to show Jon that Stannis isn't AAR and while his sword is pretty, it's not LB. But I think Aemon might suspect that Jon has something to do with that particular prophecy and the War for the Dawn.

Blind old men knows thing. :)

[Fire Eater]

Aemon knows something special with Jon, but doesn't have the eyes to see (physically and figuratively).. however..

Before reaching the Wall, here's Tyrion's foreshadowing thoughts on Jon...

And finally, we come full circle with Rhaegar...

The Great Council will choose Jon to mount the Iron Throne. Jon will not like it, he will take no pleasure in it, but he must do it.

Jon was already selected for a position of leadership in the NW by vote much like Aegon V was selected for his position by vote in the Great Council. I don't think he will need a Great Council if it is down to him and Cersei, and he has the dragons and nearly the entire realm at his back.

Nice finds, btw.

[Ygrain]

Lol, I was wondering what Lyarra Stark is meant to be pronounced, and then it dawned on me :D No wonder them Starks have some extra abilities :D

[Mithras]

“The great cog Saduleon is berthed at the end of the quay, and the galleys Summer Sun and Joso’s Prank are anchored beyond the breakwater.”

Three heads has the dragon, Dany thought, wondering. “I shall tell my people to make ready to depart at once. But the ships that bring me home must bear different names.”

“As you wish,” said Arstan. “What names would you prefer?”

“Vhagar,” Daenerys told him. “Meraxes. And Balerion.”

Dany renamed the three ships sent by Illyrio to bring her back to Pentos. The great cog Saduleon became Balerion.

The largest of her three was shiny black, his scales slashed with streaks of vivid scarlet to match his wings and horns. “Khaleesi,” Aggo murmured, “there sits Balerion, come again.”

Drogon was called Balerion come again. The theory is that Lyanna is Nissa #1 who gave birth to Jon (first half of the Lightbringer) and Dany is Nissa #2 who gave birth to Drogon (second half of the Lightbringer).

…her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

So, how did Dany’s soul went into Drogon? I think we already saw it. Saduleon is an anagram for Daen(erys') soul.

There are additional references to Jon and Drogon pairing. In addition to the ones Fire Eater supplied, I think the following is new:

“Instead you brought us here and tore my Saduleon to pieces for some nails and scraps of wood. I will never see her like again.”

Note that the three ships were torn apart and made into rams and siege equipment in taking of Meereen. This is very similar to the general principle of the NW: they never waste anything. They use the stuff from their fallen brothers. To press this further, GRRM used an expression which is traditionally spoken in a funeral of a brother of the NW.

Mormont nodded. “He came to us from White Harbor, and never failed in his duty. He kept his vows as best he could, rode far, fought fiercely. We shall never see his like again.”

“And now his watch is ended,” the black brothers said, in solemn chant.

The ship Balerion was feminine (she). But it was transformed into a siege ram, which is highly masculine. In fact, all the rams created from the scraps of the ships were given bawdy names, one of which was Joso’s Cock.

Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.

Lol, Balerion was first a female and then a male, like a proper dragon.

[Alia of the knife]

Jons last battle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SNTSoizcvME

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

We should take a moment to discuss Lyanna's agency.

[BearQueen87]

We should take a moment to discuss Lyanna's agency.

As in...if she chose to go freely or what did you have in mind?

[Bleiz]

This has probably been mentioned before but I always thought that this was a subtle wink at Jon's dragon heritage:-

Jon X DWD

When Owen the Oaf began to dance with Patchface the fool, laughter echoed off the vaulted ceiling. The sight made Lady Alys smile. "Do you dance often, here at Castle Black?"

"Every time we have a wedding, my Lady."

"You could dance with me, you know. It would be only courteous. You danced with me anon."

In this book - A Dance With Dragons - we have a character, Alys, who offers to dance with Jon, our dragon, and also reminisces on when they had danced together before in their childhood.

[teej6]

We should take a moment to discuss Lyanna's agency.

IMO Lyanna went willingly and it was made to look like an abduction in order to save her/Stark honor. Someone earlier mentioned that Rhaegar was willing to taint his honor to protect Lyanna's and I completely agree. From what little we know of Rhaegar, he seems like a person who'd do just that. I also feel it may have been Lyanna who wanted to run away to get out of a loveless marriage and Rhaegar was so smitten with her that he'd sacrifice his honor for love. Rhaegar may have been obsessed with prophesy but it was love that eventually had him take off with Lyanna. Unfortunately, they did not forsee Brandon's reaction and underestimated Aerys madness. If Brandon hadn't charged into KL and gotten himself and Rickard killed maybe Rhaegar would have announced his marriage to Lyanna. It's a series of unexpected and unfortunate events that unfolded that made it impossible for Rhaegar to come out with the truth and after Jon Arryn raised his banners, there was no point. Nothing Rhaegar did or said after that would have made a difference unless and until he first defeated the rebellion.

[honeyed chicken]

This has probably been mentioned before but I always thought that this was a subtle wink at Jon's dragon heritage:-

Jon X DWD

In this book - A Dance With Dragons - we have a character, Alys, who offers to dance with Jon, our dragon, and also reminisces on when they had danced together before in their childhood.

Can't rule anything out with George I suppose, but that seems an awful looooooong stretch.

[Alia of the knife]

I think we also have to consider the impact on House Stark as a whole were it known that Lyanna was willing.
If a lord cannot control the women of his house,(given the time period), especially a daughter in a land like the North, why should they follow that lord?

Her actions would have called Rickards leadership into question.

Unless we find out something later on about the women of the North having more rights, (and its a possibility that Rickard didn't want Lyanna to carry a sword because she was to marry a Southroner), then had Lyanna survived, the KG couldn't be sure what Ned, (as head of House Stark), may have done to her as punishment if he knew she had gone willing.

In those times, love aside, a father or brother may well have executed a daughter or sister if they didn't banish her to take the veil if she dishonored her House as it may be taken as weakness if they didn't. So Rhaegar may have been protecting a lot more than just her.

[Fire Eater]

I think we also have to consider the impact on House Stark as a whole were it known that Lyanna was willing.

If a lord cannot control the women of his house,(given the time period), especially a daughter in a land like the North, why should they follow that lord?

Her actions would have called Rickards leadership into question.

Rickard was a strict father I think. I don't think he would have killed his own daughter, but he would have been super-pissed at what Lyanna did. She would have dishonored him and his house. An angry parent can be the scariest thing to a teenage girl.

I think he would have tried to have the marriage annulled, and still try to marry her off to Robert to try and salvage the situation until she told Rickard she was pregnant. Then Rickard would know it reached the point of no return. Rickard might have disowned her, telling her she was no longer welcome in WF.

[BearQueen87]

Rickard was a strict father I think. I don't think he would have killed his own daughter, but he would have been super-pissed at what Lyanna did. She would have dishonored him and his house. An angry parent can be the scariest thing to a teenage girl.

I think he would have tried to have the marriage annulled, and still try to marry her off to Robert to try and salvage the situation until she told Rickard she was pregnant. Then Rickard would know it reached the point of no return. Rickard might have disowned her, telling her she was no longer welcome in WF.

One of the many reasons why I think R and L got married. Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't stupid. They know how it's going to look if she shows up with a baby in nine months and they didn't have a wedding beforehand. Especially if Rhaegar is expecting their child to be the third ruler with Rhaenys and Aegon.

[teej6]

Rickard was a strict father I think. I don't think he would have killed his own daughter, but he would have been super-pissed at what Lyanna did. She would have dishonored him and his house. An angry parent can be the scariest thing to a teenage girl.

I think he would have tried to have the marriage annulled, and still try to marry her off to Robert to try and salvage the situation until she told Rickard she was pregnant. Then Rickard would know it reached the point of no return. Rickard might have disowned her, telling her she was no longer welcome in WF.

Perhaps Rickard was a strict father but more than the fear of Rickard's wrath Lyanna might have been concerned about the dishonor it would bring to her family if it were known that she ran away with Rhaegar when she was promised to another man. Rickard's word meant his honor/his family's honor. As Alia pointed out earlier, if the Lord does not keep his word how would that appear to his vassal Lords and subjects. Besides there was always the danger of Robert taking the insult personally and raising his banners against the Starks to defend his honor. Now I'm not saying that Robert would have done that but Lyanna and Rhaegar may not have been sure of Robert's reaction and therefore a kidnapping cover story may have seemed the best option. Neither of them expected the Starks/Baratheons to challenge KL or the crown.

[Alia of the knife]

Leadership went beyond being a father,brother or husband. If you led thousands, you couldn't allow even a member of your own family to break the law without consequence. If he didn't execute her, he may have made take a vow of silence with the sisters.