R+L = J v 86

[Ygrain]

Rickard was a strict father I think. I don't think he would have killed his own daughter, but he would have been super-pissed at what Lyanna did. She would have dishonored him and his house. An angry parent can be the scariest thing to a teenage girl.

I think he would have tried to have the marriage annulled, and still try to marry her off to Robert to try and salvage the situation until she told Rickard she was pregnant. Then Rickard would know it reached the point of no return. Rickard might have disowned her, telling her she was no longer welcome in WF.

I think that the culprit being the Crown Prince might be a huge mitigating factor. It is a totally different class than someone below her rank, or even equal. I agree on Rickard being pissed, but I don't think he would have taken any steps towards annulling the marriage.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

The dragon takes what it wants.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

This has probably been mentioned before but I always thought that this was a subtle wink at Jon's dragon heritage:-

Jon X DWD

In this book - A Dance With Dragons - we have a character, Alys, who offers to dance with Jon, our dragon, and also reminisces on when they had danced together before in their childhood.

Can't rule anything out with George I suppose, but that seems an awful looooooong stretch.

We should note then, if it means anything, that Jon Snow foregoes the dance. He does not refuse blatantly or with negativity, but moves the conversation on.

If this was foreshadowing, he would not want to join the Dance 2.0.

That's in-character, no surprises there.

[BearQueen87]

I think that the culprit being the Crown Prince might be a huge mitigating factor. It is a totally different class than someone below her rank, or even equal. I agree on Rickard being pissed, but I don't think he would have taken any steps towards annulling the marriage.

We know Rickard had southron ambitions. Marrying the crown prince (and possible King before long) and giving him a son is about as lofty as it gets.

[The other prince]

We know Rickard had southron ambitions. Marrying the crown prince (and possible King before long) and giving him a son is about as lofty as it gets.

Yes, your daughter marrying the Crown Prince is about as high as you can reach.

[teej6]

I think that the culprit being the Crown Prince might be a huge mitigating factor. It is a totally different class than someone below her rank, or even equal. I agree on Rickard being pissed, but I don't think he would have taken any steps towards annulling the marriage.

^ This. Rhaegar prolly felt that he could take on the blame in an abduction story thereby saving Lyanna/Stark honor and once the dust settles he could announce his love/marriage to Lyanna. He was expecting Rickard to acknowledge the marriage by then. In the short-term I believe he thought the only outrage would come from Robert and maybe Arys. They were not expecting Brandon's challenge or Arys reaction.

[Alia of the knife]

^ This. Rhaegar prolly felt that he could take on the blame in an abduction story thereby saving Lyanna/Stark honor and once the dust settles he could announce his love/marriage to Lyanna. He was expecting Rickard to acknowledge the marriage by then. In the short-term I believe he thought the only outrage would come from Robert and maybe Arys. They were not expecting Brandon's challenge or Arys reaction.

:agree:

[Fire Eater]

I think that the culprit being the Crown Prince might be a huge mitigating factor. It is a totally different class than someone below her rank, or even equal. I agree on Rickard being pissed, but I don't think he would have taken any steps towards annulling the marriage.

She would have been married to an already married man who already had a son who would inherit the IT whereas Lyanna's children though Robert would rule SE and the stormlands. Rickard had already arranged the marriage with Robert, and would now have to tell him why it has to be called off.

[corbon]

She would have been married to an already married man who already had a son who would inherit the IT whereas Lyanna's children though Robert would rule SE and the stormlands. Rickard had already arranged the marriage with Robert, and would now have to tell him why it has to be called off.

Lyanna's son by Rhaegar would be one heartbeat from inheriting the Iron throne, and a daughter would probably be queen.

Up is better than sideways.

The already married thing is very unlikely to be a factor - once you take away shortsighted modern 'outrage' at the idea.

The explaining to Robert is definitely a 'thing', but its not a huge thing by any stretch of the imagination. If the deed is already done and the payoff potenial high enough.

[BearQueen87]

She would have been married to an already married man who already had a son who would inherit the IT whereas Lyanna's children though Robert would rule SE and the stormlands. Rickard had already arranged the marriage with Robert, and would now have to tell him why it has to be called off.

I think that might depend on what Rhaegar's ultimate endgame was. After he had his three "heads" what exactly came next. It's a political quagmire and I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar didn't have some sort of plan for how these three would rule. Co-rule? Some sort of rotating rule? Aegon and Rhaenys rule but Jon's children follow? All of those I just suggested are horrible, I know, but if Rhaegar was intent on having three children to fulfill the dragon has three heads bit, then he must have had something in mind.

[Ygrain]

She would have been married to an already married man who already had a son who would inherit the IT whereas Lyanna's children though Robert would rule SE and the stormlands. Rickard had already arranged the marriage with Robert, and would now have to tell him why it has to be called off.

Given the children mortality, Lyanna's son would be the next in the succession line. Given the Targ incest, her daughter might become Aegon's wife and her grandchildren actually sit the IT.

And, the abduction and a secret marriage is a perfect excuse why Rickard doesn't have to explain anything to Robert, Rhaegar takes the full fall out.

[Panasync]

After re-watching the first season earlier I came upon the scene in season 1 episode 2 where Robert and Ned are eating and the discussion trails to "your bastard's mother", Ned's reactions to this line of discussion and what follows directly after is what interested me (facial expressions overall demeanor). He plays the scene very passive-aggressively (at least from my perspective) at not only the questions/discussion of both the mother and other Targaryens ie "you can't get your hands on this one, can ya'?", could he possibly even be projecting that thought about Jon? During the show we're introduced to none of the clues present in the book, which I believe is precisely why we haven't, to make the reveal shocking. This would mean that either Sean Bean (from my understanding at least in interviews he has said he is not aware, but I don't know how much that truly means) was told whom the mother was, or was directed in how to act during the scene. I could just be such a fan of the theory that I'm reading far too much into it, but I feel like the framing of the discussion (Ned's bastard --> Targaryen & possible male Targaryen heir) is possibly a hint that is impossible to pick up on for non-book readers, but a hint nonetheless. One of the reasons I feel they haven't done many flashbacks or discussions of the event is doing so, at least on TV would be far more of a give away than it is while being read.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think that might depend on what Rhaegar's ultimate endgame was. After he had his three "heads" what exactly came next. It's a political quagmire and I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar didn't have some sort of plan for how these three would rule. Co-rule? Some sort of rotating rule? Aegon and Rhaenys rule but Jon's children follow? All of those I just suggested are horrible, I know, but if Rhaegar was intent on having three children to fulfill the dragon has three heads bit, then he must have had something in mind.

We obviously cannot be sure what Rhaegar was thinking, but I think we have some real clues. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy. At one point Rhaegar believed that he was TPTWP. In the HOTU vision, Rhaegar apparently changed his view and believed his son, Aegon, was TPTWP and that his song is "The Song of Ice and FIre." We have reason to believe that Rhaegar basically was an honorable man, so his relationship with Lyanna most likely was consensual--I believe they were married. If he changed his mind about the identity of TPTWP once, he could do so again. Aegon had no connection to ice. Once Rhaegar got together with Lyanna--a woman of the North--I think he likely concluded that their child--or more specifically their son--would be TPTWP.

Most people assume Rhaegar was trying to replicate Aegon and his two sisters, and thus expected a daughter with Lyanna. I disagree. If he had a third child with Elia, then he likely would have expected a daughter and named her Visenya. But once Elia could no longer have any children, and Rhaegar decided to have a third child with Lyanna, I suspect he changed his view. My theory is that Rhaegar concluded that the Song of Ice and Fire, i.e., TPTWP, would be his son with Lyanna (and I think he was right about that), because the union with Lyanna was the merger of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar).

As to the question of how they would rule, I am not sure Rhaegar was really that concerned about ruling from the IT. While we don't know exactly what TPTWP is supposed to do, we have an idea that he is expected to be a savior and leader. So Rhaegar likely believed that his son with Lyanna (Jon) would be that savior and leader, but he also believed that the dragon has three heads. To Rhaegar (and I think he was basically correct), this meant that TPTWP needed other leaders of Targ ancestry (Rhaegar believed it was his other children--but he was obviously wrong as his daughter is dead and son likely as well assuming the new Aegon is really (f)Aegon) to assist him. So in Rhaegar's mind, Jon would lead the charge, with the help of Rhaenys and Aegon, to save humanity. What happened after they managed to save the world--in terms of who sat on IT--probably was not a major concern to Rhaegar. He was worried about "bigger" things for his children to accomplish.

[BearQueen87]

We obviously cannot be sure what Rhaegar was thinking, but I think we have some real clues. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy. At one point Rhaegar believed that he was TPTWP. In the HOTU vision, Rhaegar apparently changed his view and believed his son, Aegon, was TPTWP and that his song is "The Song of Ice and FIre." We have reason to believe that Rhaegar basically was an honorable man, so his relationship with Lyanna most likely was consensual--I believe they were married. If he changed his mind about the identity of TPTWP once, he could do so again. Aegon had no connection to ice. Once Rhaegar got together with Lyanna--a woman of the North--I think he likely concluded that their child--or more specifically their son--would be TPTWP.

Most people assume Rhaegar was trying to replicate Aegon and his two sisters, and thus expected a daughter with Lyanna. I disagree. If he had a third child with Elia, then he likely would have expected a daughter and named her Visenya. But once Elia could no longer have any children, and Rhaegar decided to have a third child with Lyanna, I suspect he changed his view. My theory is that Rhaegar concluded that the Song of Ice and Fire, i.e., TPTWP, would be his son with Lyanna (and I think he was right about that), because the union with Lyanna was the merger of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar).

All of this I agree with

As to the question of how they would rule, I am not sure Rhaegar was really that concerned about ruling from the IT. While we don't know exactly what TPTWP is supposed to do, we have an idea that he is expected to be a savior and leader. So Rhaegar likely believed that his son with Lyanna (Jon) would be that savior and leader, but he also believed that the dragon has three heads. To Rhaegar (and I think he was basically correct), this meant that TPTWP needed other leaders of Targ ancestry (Rhaegar believed it was his other children--but he was obviously wrong as his daughter is dead and son likely as well assuming the new Aegon is really (f)Aegon) to assist him. So in Rhaegar's mind, Jon would lead the charge, with the help of Rhaenys and Aegon, to save humanity. What happened after they managed to save the world--in terms of who sat on IT--probably was not a major concern to Rhaegar. He was worried about "bigger" things for his children to accomplish.

I see. But it's still a horrible political situation if Rhaegar expects that Dorne and anyone who is anti-North/Stark to simply accept that his new son, born from circumstances that involve a lot of lying and rumors, would rule. Rhaegar believed his children were destined for great things, I agree, but he (and they) still had seven kingdoms to run, unless he means for the Targaryen legacy as the rulers of Westeros to collapse.

[Ygritte]

All of this I agree with

I see. But it's still a horrible political situation if Rhaegar expects that Dorne and anyone who is anti-North/Stark to simply accept that his new son, born from circumstances that involve a lot of lying and rumors, would rule. Rhaegar believed his children were destined for great things, I agree, but he (and they) still had seven kingdoms to run, unless he means for the Targaryen legacy as the rulers of Westeros to collapse.

He wouldn't have likely ruled anyway. Assuming all the kids live to adulthood, Aegon would rule while Jon would be the "spare" and be free to do whatever saving-the-world thing he was meant for. And Dorne, while they might well have been pissed about the additional wife, would still be the family of the heir apparent and future king. Rhaegar didn't think he would lose the war and didn't know his first two kids would die (or "die," if Aegon is real, though I don't think he is).

[BearQueen87]

He wouldn't have likely ruled anyway. Assuming all the kids live to adulthood, Aegon would rule while Jon would be the "spare" and be free to do whatever saving-the-world thing he was meant for. And Dorne, while they might well have been pissed about the additional wife, would still be the family of the heir apparent and future king. Rhaegar didn't think he would lose the war and didn't know his first two kids would die (or "die," if Aegon is real, though I don't think he is).

That assumes that all Elia's children survive to adulthood and, perhaps more importantly, that no one tries to put Jon on the throne by playing the game. Rhaegar and Lyanna come out of hiding with a new baby. Rhaegar tells everyone that new child is TPTWP from prophecy and "the third head of the dragon" and some sort of savior figure. BUT Jon won't be ruling; he has other duties. For northmen, their allies, and others who simply think that prophecy is a waste, they want to see Jon on the throne. Maybe these people don't like Dorne or Elia, maybe they think Jon would make a better king, or maybe they do believe in the prophecy and think that TPTWP should be on the throne because of his special status.

How does Rhaegar keep his son safe long enough to do whatever savior thing Jon is meant to do, when the boy would be a pawn in the game of thrones?

[Ygritte]

That assumes that all Elia's children survive to adulthood and, perhaps more importantly, that no one tries to put Jon on the throne by playing the game. Rhaegar and Lyanna come out of hiding with a new baby. Rhaegar tells everyone that new child is TPTWP from prophecy and "the third head of the dragon" and some sort of savior figure. BUT Jon won't be ruling; he has other duties. For northmen, their allies, and others who simply think that prophecy is a waste, they want to see Jon on the throne. Maybe these people don't like Dorne or Elia, maybe they think Jon would make a better king, or maybe they do believe in the prophecy and think that TPTWP should be on the throne because of his special status.

How does Rhaegar keep his son safe long enough to do whatever savior thing Jon is meant to do, when the boy would be a pawn in the game of thrones?

Well, for one thing, we're assuming he tells the whole world about the prophecy thing, when IMO the text gives the impression that most people didn't really know what wheels were turning in Rhaegar's head. He cryptically announced he needed to be a warrior after spending a lot of time reading books and hanging out at Summerhall, and then he told Dany about the three heads thing, in a vision, years after he died. Aemon seems to have known too. But I don't get the impression he was trumpeting this idea to the world or that anyone outside the family knew; indeed I think there people inside the family (Aerys) who had no idea. Various people know about the prince that was promised, but not necessarily that Rhaegar saw himself or any of his kids as it. We as readers probably know more than anybody in Westeros.

And of course no one can completely prevent anyone from playing the game of thrones. The game will happen. The North might want to remove Aegon from the succession to clear the way for Jon; Dorne might want to remove Jon from it because then Rhaenys will be second in line instead of Jon. But nobody is necessarily going to know any special status for Jon, and while nothing is foolproof, I suspect Rhaegar thought it would work out fine because there was a prophecy. I actually like the guy on several levels, but overconfidence was one of his flaws IMO.

[BearQueen87]

Well, for one thing, we're assuming he tells the whole world about the prophecy thing, when IMO the text gives the impression that most people didn't really know what wheels were turning in Rhaegar's head. He cryptically announced he needed to be a warrior after spending a lot of time reading books and hanging out at Summerhall, and then he told Dany about the three heads thing, in a vision, years after he died. Aemon seems to have known too. But I don't get the impression he was trumpeting this idea to the world or that anyone outside the family knew; indeed I think there people inside the family (Aerys) who had no idea. Various people know about the prince that was promised, but not necessarily that Rhaegar saw himself or any of his kids as it. We as readers probably know more than anybody in Westeros.

Which is still a political problem if Rhaegar isn't telling anyone about the prophecy. A child, born of the north, expected to just "wait" and see if he'll be on the throne. He'd have councilors and family pushing for him to "take his chance" especially depending on how Aegon turns out. I suppose we could surmise that Jon's allies, or those who support Lyanna and her child, could be content with him being 2nd in line (until Aegon and Rhaenys have children and then he moves still further down) but that seems to fly in the face of the entire series and the history of the Targaryen's.

And of course no one can completely prevent anyone from playing the game of thrones. The game will happen. The North might want to remove Aegon from the succession to clear the way for Jon; Dorne might want to remove Jon from it because then Rhaenys will be second in line instead of Jon. But nobody is necessarily going to know any special status for Jon, and while nothing is foolproof, I suspect Rhaegar thought it would work out fine because there was a prophecy. I actually like the guy on several levels, but overconfidence was one of his flaws IMO.

I definitely agree with you about Rhaegar. I like him a lot as well (odd thing to say for a person we've technically never "met"). He's placing a ton of confidence that people will just accept this third child. But you would think his bookish nature would assist him here. He knows how much people play the game of thrones--especially his kin (Dance of Dragons comes to mind).

[UnmaskedLurker]

Which is still a political problem if Rhaegar isn't telling anyone about the prophecy. A child, born of the north, expected to just "wait" and see if he'll be on the throne. He'd have councilors and family pushing for him to "take his chance" especially depending on how Aegon turns out. I suppose we could surmise that Jon's allies, or those who support Lyanna and her child, could be content with him being 2nd in line (until Aegon and Rhaenys have children and then he moves still further down) but that seems to fly in the face of the entire series and the history of the Targaryen's.

I definitely agree with you about Rhaegar. I like him a lot as well (odd thing to say for a person we've technically never "met"). He's placing a ton of confidence that people will just accept this third child. But you would think his bookish nature would assist him here. He knows how much people play the game of thrones--especially his kin (Dance of Dragons comes to mind).

Try to put yourself in the mind of someone obsessed with prophesy. He does not worry about the political fall-out. He simply does his best to fulfill the prophesy. What would that mean in this case? In this case, it would mean that Rhaegar would train his three children to be warriors and to work together. His role is to assist the prophesy--but the prophesy makes itself happen. So you are correct, that perhaps Rhaegar should have been thinking about these political consequences. But if he cared about such things, he never would have run off with Lyanna at all. Rhaegar has a "mission from G-d" so to speak. When someone believes he is on such a mission, these sort of extraneous factors simply become irrelevant. All he does is try to fulfill his mission. And by the way, I am sure you know that "book smart" and "street smart" are not the same thing. Rhaegar appears to have been book smart, but playing the game of thrones successfully depends more on street smarts. Not to be too repetitive, but when thinking about Rhaegar, remember that he risked everything to run off with Lyanna in order to have the third head of the dragon (and TPTWP--The Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)). Rhaegar simply is not someone who worries too much about what people will think of what he has done or how they will react. He only cares about whether he is working toward fulfilling the prophesy.

[BearQueen87]

Try to put yourself in the mind of someone obsessed with prophesy. He does not worry about the political fall-out. He simply does his best to fulfill the prophesy. What would that mean in this case? In this case, it would mean that Rhaegar would train his three children to be warriors and to work together. His role is to assist the prophesy--but the prophesy makes itself happen. So you are correct, that perhaps Rhaegar should have been thinking about these political consequences. But if he cared about such things, he never would have run off with Lyanna at all. Rhaegar has a "mission from G-d" so to speak. When someone believes he is on such a mission, these sort of extraneous factors simply become irrelevant. All he does is try to fulfill his mission. And by the way, I am sure you know that "book smart" and "street smart" are not the same thing. Rhaegar appears to have been book smart, but playing the game of thrones successfully depends more on street smarts. Not to be too repetitive, but when thinking about Rhaegar, remember that he risked everything to run off with Lyanna in order to have the third head of the dragon (and TPTWP--The Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)). Rhaegar simply is not someone who worries too much about what people will think of what he has done or how they will react. He only cares about whether he is working toward fulfilling the prophesy.

I see what you're saying. And while Rhaegar thinks the prophecy will sort it all out in the end, he must also recognize that in the mean time problems are going to arise--he may not be street smart enough to play the game, but his book smarts would show that others ARE street smart enough. How much blood shed, how much fighting and manipulating and game playing will there be for that stupid ugly chair? It'll work out in the end cause prophecy says so but until it does.... I guess what I'm looking for as any indication that he was torn over his decisions. Did he stop to consider how much the realm might bleed or fight once he presents his third child, conceived and born under less than ideal circumstances?