Jaime Lannister's honor

[Brute of Bracken]

2. Jory was not to blame for Tyrion getting arrested. you know who is? Jaime. follow the trail back. Jaime pushes Bran, Bran goes in coma, someone tries to assassinate him, Catelyn figures out Jaime pushed him, Catelyn goes south and investigates the things that happened to Bran. Had Jaime not pushed Bran, Tyrion wouldn't have been taken by Catelyn. Even so, the northmen of Eddard's had done nothing to deserve their death because Jaime was upset. Blatant disregard for life.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter if Jory is responsible or not. That is the way Westeros, and life in most cases works. What Jaime did was pretty much normal for the lords of Westeros. If the Starks unlawfully kidnap a Lannister, then some violence should be expected.

[Cameron]

Really not sure if serious, but will respond anyway.

1. No, cuckolding the king isn't something light. It's unfair, yes, but Robert having bastards is not a big deal; Cersei having them is. That's how this society works (going off your "society" argument.) Robert was hardly going to disinherit any children Cersei had. On his deathbed he still thought of Joff as his heir even though he hated him. Cersei committed treason by denying the king an heir.

2. Jory was not to blame for Tyrion getting arrested. you know who is? Jaime. follow the trail back. Jaime pushes Bran, Bran goes in coma, someone tries to assassinate him, Catelyn figures out Jaime pushed him, Catelyn goes south and investigates the things that happened to Bran. Had Jaime not pushed Bran, Tyrion wouldn't have been taken by Catelyn. Even so, the northmen of Eddard's had done nothing to deserve their death because Jaime was upset. Blatant disregard for life.

3. Don't really care about the Tysha thing. I agree that's on Tywin's shoulders, not the teenage Jaime. Still though, awfully long time for Jaime to tell the truth.

4. incest isn't the problem. I actually think some Jaime and Cersei moments are rather sweet for the fraction of second I forget they're related. But as with point 1, it's Cersei and Jaime denying Robert an heir. It's not about persecuting incest, though I would hardly say I support it. there's a reason its so taboo in most societies. I don't care if Jaime and Cersei were consensual. They purposely disrespected their king, denied him heirs, and caused the current succession crisis. it would be the same if Jaime wasn't her brother.

i suppose the root of the disagreement comes from whether one views things from the westerosi moral standpoint or the modern moral standpoint

[Minsc]

i suppose the root of the disagreement comes from whether one views things from the westerosi moral standpoint or the modern moral standpoint

How is Jaime excused in either standpoint?

[Brute of Bracken]

He was at least 18 during the Tysha affair, and had already stood up to Tywin when joined the kg

Please, his brother was only arrested and he is partially guilty for why that occurred

What honorable things?

I agree that what he did in Tysha's case was a mistake. Jaime himself accepts it and comes clean after all these years,

His brother was unlawfully arrested - most lords would react violently.

I have already listed twice a list of honorable things he has done in this thread

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Pretty much, though I disagree with him necessarily dying to get redemption. If he just realizes how evil he's been so far and regrets it, that's redemption in my opinion

Well, that was just a random example. I mean that if he goes to death accepting his blame, then he has found redemption.

Now he's going to face Stoneheart, which might or not result on his death, and it's the first test to know how much he has really changed.

[Brute of Bracken]

How is Jaime excused in either standpoint?

Jaime is not excused. He committed crimes and deserves punishment - I think we all agree on that much. The discussion is about his redemption arc.

[Minsc]

I agree that what he did in Tysha's case was a mistake. Jaime himself accepts it and comes clean after all these years,

His brother was unlawfully arrested - most lords would react violently.

I have already listed twice a list of honorable things he has done in this thread

He comes clean around 14 years later, hardly achievement

He wasn't, instead he was arrested related to crimes Jaime knows his family is guilty of

Only the Brienne thing really qualifies

[The Maiden Fair]

I think that what happened to Jaime is that he stopped caring about everything.

First, he realised he wasn't named KG due to his actions but as a way to snub Tywin. Then, he sees how the "honourable" White Cloaks simply stood and witness Aerys' madness without doing something, and after he killed the King that was about to kill them all, he was scolded for that.

After the Rebellion, Jaime was practically a zombie. People he admired to be good and honourable died, everything around him changed, he was seen as a murdered and an oathbreaker, and Cersei got married. Things definitely didn't changed for his status as KG as the new King wasn't exactly better than Aerys to his eyes because now it was his time to stand aside when Cersei was being forced to have sex with him and after she gave birth to his children, he couldn't even be close to them.

I'm not saying that Jaime was a victim or anything like it. But I guess after Aerys' death he got little to live of fight for except Cersei. And Cersei is even way more morally rotten than he is.

This is how I eventually viewed Jaime as well. Sort of a manic depressive, who was either drinking his own koolaid of "I'm the greatest thing since roasting spits", or being washed over with the weight of his Scarlet Letter after killing Aerys "I saved them, and they hate me for it".

The line about monsters and heroes Mercy's pov, which I will not share here for spoiler reasons, seems to apply to Jaime's mindset just as much as ___'s - possibly more so.

Basically, "F*k it, they think I'm a monster anyway so why try to prove them wrong?"

[Brute of Bracken]

This is how I eventually viewed Jaime as well. Sort of a manic depressive, who was either drinking his own koolaid of "I'm the greatest thing since roasting spits", or being washed over with the weight of his Scarlet Letter after killing Aerys "I saved them, and they hate me for it".

The line about monsters and heroes Mercy's pov, which I will not share here for spoiler reasons, seems to apply to Jaime's mindset just as much as Tyrion's - possibly more so.

Basically, "F*k it, they think I'm a monster anyway so why try to prove them wrong?"

Yes, that is my take as well

[Cameron]

How is Jaime excused in either standpoint?

i would hope that modernity would view royalty as outdated as well as arranged marriage and what happens between two people in the bedroom as their own damn business. as for the murder of someone over a brother, if someone other than the law were to persecute my brother on unproven grounds and detain him (ie kidnap) i would happily go out of my way to make their lives a living hell.

[FourmyleOfCeres]

Jaime looks pretty normal to me and quite aware of the things he does.

That is not what psychopathy is or means. Google better.

As for Tysha, I believe Jaime was in his 20s when that occurred. Then in his 20s and 30s as he failed to tell Tyrion. Not a boy.

As for his being "grey," no, he'd be in prison in our world for various things he did, and in Westeros he'd be executed for numerous things he did. How is that grey? Do you think prisons are filled with morally grey people? I guess there are like 5 really good guys on earth, 5 really bad guys, and billions of greys.

Not so. Prisons are filled with horrible people.

[Brute of Bracken]

He comes clean around 14 years later, hardly achievement

He wasn't, instead he was arrested related to crimes Jaime knows his family is guilty of

Only the Brienne thing really qualifies

I do accept he did a mistake in Tysha's case.

And he's supposed to do nothing? Confess? What was the point of pushing Bran in the first place? Of course the Lannisters are going to react violently! I really don't nderstand why killing Jory is such a big deal in Westeros when innocents get killed by lords all the time.

I'm not sure if you read the points I listed. If so, an explanation on why you disagree would be useful.

[LordStoneheart]

Unfortunately it doesn't matter if Jory is responsible or not. That is the way Westeros, and life in most cases works. What Jaime did was pretty much normal for the lords of Westeros. If the Starks unlawfully kidnap a Lannister, then some violence should be expected.

that is no excuse. it's not "pretty much normal." Name me one situation that was similar with similar causes and motivations.

If you recall, Eddard claims that Tyrion was arrested by his command. That makes the arrest lawful. Eddard is a Lord, warden of the north, and hand of the king. Jaime is in the king's guard and not tywin's legal heir. he is not one to be making calls on lawful considering all his crimes. Furthermore, you didn't actually respond to the fact that Jaime's actions are what led to Catelyn arresting Tyrion in the first place, something Jaime would have realized if he didn't overreact like an idiot child. How about investigating? How about asking Eddard some actual follow-up? Nope. slaughter innocent men. Jaime Lannister is a fricken hero.

i suppose the root of the disagreement comes from whether one views things from the westerosi moral standpoint or the modern moral standpoint

I use both and Jaime is a cunt each time.

[Brute of Bracken]

Not so. Prisons are filled with horrible people.

No, prisons are mostly filled with normal people who have done horrible things.

[Minsc]

i would hope that modernity would view royalty as outdated as well as arranged marriage and what happens between two people in the bedroom as their own damn business. as for the murder of someone over a brother, if someone other than the law were to persecute my brother on unproven grounds and detain him (ie kidnap) i would happily go out of my way to make their lives a living hell.

Treason is still treason

So if the police was to arrest your brother, you solution would be killing a number of cops?

[FourmyleOfCeres]

i would hope that modernity would view royalty as outdated as well as arranged marriage and what happens between two people in the bedroom as their own damn business. as for the murder of someone over a brother, if someone other than the law were to persecute my brother on unproven grounds and detain him (ie kidnap) i would happily go out of my way to make their lives a living hell.

What about the attempted murder of a child? Also, is it difficult to read the ASOIAF books while constantly being angry about the radically different cultural and ethical norms prevailing in the series? IE, is it difficult to read the series and enjoy it when you don't understand it? (Asking for a friend.)

[FourmyleOfCeres]

No, prisons are mostly filled with normal people who have done horrible things.

No, they're filled with horrible people. Modern PC liberal stuff here, to defend criminals, but I notice none of you ever invite them over to dinner. None of you ever want to live in a neighborhood filled with ex-cons. Why not?

[Brute of Bracken]

that is no excuse. it's not "pretty much normal." Name me one situation that was similar with similar causes and motivations.

If you recall, Eddard claims that Tyrion was arrested by his command. That makes the arrest lawful. Eddard is a Lord, warden of the north, and hand of the king. Jaime is in the king's guard and not tywin's legal heir. he is not one to be making calls on lawful considering all his crimes. Furthermore, you didn't actually respond to the fact that Jaime's actions are what led to Catelyn arresting Tyrion in the first place, something Jaime would have realized if he didn't overreact like an idiot child. How about investigating? How about asking Eddard some actual follow-up? Nope. slaughter innocent men. Jaime Lannister is a fricken hero.

I use both and Jaime is a cunt each time.

The arrest is not lawful - as far as I know, Ned did not give the command, nor was Tyrion the actual guilty party.

And killing Jory Cassel is about as par for the course as Daeron being sent to the Wall.

[Cameron]

Treason is still treason

So if the police was to arrest your brother, you solution would be killing a number of cops?

this wasn't the police though. this was the wife of the 2/ic. if someone unsanctioned arrested my brother, yes, there would be blood. and keep in mind, at the time, raising your voice against a lord raping your wife (as a peasant) would be treason

[Brute of Bracken]

No, they're filled with horrible people. Modern PC liberal stuff here, to defend criminals, but I notice none of you ever invite them over to dinner. None of you ever want to live in a neighborhood filled with ex-cons. Why not?

I think this is a common misconception. Normal people can indeed do horrible things in certain circumstances. Have you heard of the Milgram experiment?