Targaryen Incest - A practical solution to an ever present problem

[The Bittersteel]

We've been led to believe that following Aegon's conquest of Westeros that the Targaryens adopted the faith of the seven as their religion while keeping the practice of incestuous marriage from old Valyrian customs and their native religion. We have been told the driving force behind this common practice was to keep the blood of Valyria purer in the royal family. While this is highly likely to be one of the reasons contributing to the continuation of the practice I'd like to illustrate why I believe that instead a logical practical reason is one of the driving forces behind the custom.

In my view it ultimately comes down to land. Directly the Targaryens control only the Crownlands with the rest of Westeros under the rule of the many Lords Paramount. In terms of resources I believe it is fair to argue that the Crownlands are not one of the most powerful regions of Westeros. In particular they are outmatched very clearly by:

The Reach

The Westerlands

The North

and the Vale of Arryn

You see marriages in this fantasy world are a double edged sword just as they were in medieval times. A marriage is the only way to secure a reliable alliance yet by marrying into another family that family can also gain a claim on your possessions.

I believe the Targaryens were aware that by often marrying daughters into the very prestigious (not so much in the Tyrells case) and directly more powerful (very much the Tyrells case) families of the Arryns, Starks, Lannisters and Tyrells they risked losing the throne and so would only do so with several secure heirs. As an example imagine if Aerys had never had Rhaegar and only had Viserys and Daenerys. Let's say Viserys, for arguments sake, is a terrible king and has a weak heir or no male heir at all. If Daenerys had married say Robb Stark and had several intelligent male heirs you've got a rebellion in the making.

By marrying incestuously you ensure that the claims to the throne stay within the royal family and even during a civil war a Targaryen is bound to be sitting the throne at the end of it.

In support of my theory I present that when not marrying incestuously the predominant tradition of marrying females into the House of Velaryon, which would help continue the symbolic tradition of up keeping Valyrian blood but also wouldn't be a particular danger. The Velaryons are a prestigious family but not a particularly powerful one. Other notable families that are married into share similar traits. The Martells are powerful and prestigious as are the Hightowers but neither present as great a danger as the four families mentioned above.

So that's my theory. Incest to protect the family in a nutshell. It's notable that one of the major times they strayed from this tradition, i.e Rhaelle Targaryen's marriage into House Baratheon backfired as it gave Robert a claim on the Iron Throne.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Targs also control Dragonstone, but it's poor as well.

[Kienn]

So that's my theory. Incest to protect the family in a nutshell. It's notable that one of the major times they strayed from this tradition, i.e Rhaelle Targaryen's marriage into House Baratheon backfired as it gave Robert a claim on the Iron Throne.

IMO this is actually the main source of Aerys' paranoia. My personal opinion is that the Starks and Lannisters both have recent Targ blood. But even if you imagine their connections are much further back what Aerys saw was cousins marrying each other to strengthen their own blood compared to the "main" Targ line.

I think one of the purposes of Dunk & Egg will be to show these recent branches. The children of Egg's 2 sisters, and the children of Egg's first and third sons. If you imagine that the Starks and Lannisters are descended from any of these then Aerys saw a cousin (Lyanna) marrying another cousin (Robert) on one side, and prior to Rhaegar's marriage there was another plan to marry Elia/Oberyn (also cousins) to Jaime/Cersei (also cousins). If this were to continue for another generation or two (the Stark/Baratheon child marrying the Lannister/Martell child) then such a descendant could make an arguable claim to be more Targaryen than Aerys' own descendant.

So I definitely agree that much of the practice of incest was to bring other branches of the family tree back into the main branch in order to protect themselves from various minor branches trying to unite and overthrow.

[natty bumppo]

Robert had no claim to the throne. He took it by force. The rebels merely used his Targ connection as a pretext for making him king rather than Ned Stark or Robert Arryn.

[joluoto2]

Then again there was a Targaryen- Arryn marriage. Viserys I first wife was Aemma Arryn. Though of course a male Targaryen marrying an Arryn would not be that dangerous.

[The Bittersteel]

Targs also control Dragonstone, but it's poor as well.

I believe Dragonstone is nominally part of the Crownlands.

Then again there was a Targaryen- Arryn marriage. Viserys I first wife was Aemma Arryn. Though of course a male Targaryen marrying an Arryn would not be that dangerous.

Correct on both accounts yes.

[Ygritte]

I think that's part of it, and that it also originated as a way to concentrate the genes that allowed the connection with dragons. That way you didn't end up with random people from rival houses who might be able to subvert the Targs' dragons, and you didn't have Targs whose dragon-genes were so diluted that they couldn't do anything with them.

[The Mountain That Flies]

Pretty solid theory, OP. We've seen what happens when a powerful enough family (Hightowers) get their eyes on the throne, so keeping away from encouraging these dynamics is a goo idea. But shouldn't the same logic apply to Lord Paramounts and their most powerful bannermen? For that matter, what about when there were actually seven kingdoms, and the various royal families had t deal with their marriage alliances?

[The Bittersteel]

Pretty solid theory, OP. We've seen what happens when a powerful enough family (Hightowers) get their eyes on the throne, so keeping away from encouraging these dynamics is a goo idea. But shouldn't the same logic apply to Lord Paramounts and their most powerful bannermen? For that matter, what about when there were actually seven kingdoms, and the various royal families had t deal with their marriage alliances?

The same logic does apply to lords paramount and their bannermen correct but in the eyes of many incest is an abomination because of religious and cultural beliefs. The Targaryens get away with it because it was apparently practiced in Valyria. That being said other major families often marry minor branches for similar reasons. Tywin's spouse was another Lannister, Eddard Starks parents were both Starks, one of Jon Arryns wives was an Arryn and so forth.

Edit: Thank you for the compliment by the way.

[Winterfell is Burning]

IMO this is actually the main source of Aerys' paranoia. My personal opinion is that the Starks and Lannisters both have recent Targ blood.

The Starks at least don't. From the History of the Westerlands passage, doesn't seem likely that the Lannisters have either.

I think that's part of it, and that it also originated as a way to concentrate the genes that allowed the connection with dragons. That way you didn't end up with random people from rival houses who might be able to subvert the Targs' dragons, and you didn't have Targs whose dragon-genes were so diluted that they couldn't do anything with them.

That's the real reason, I think.

[Talking Hodor]

I think the Targaryens are just power-greedy and racist.

[The Bittersteel]

I think that's part of it, and that it also originated as a way to concentrate the genes that allowed the connection with dragons. That way you didn't end up with random people from rival houses who might be able to subvert the Targs' dragons, and you didn't have Targs whose dragon-genes were so diluted that they couldn't do anything with them.

I guess that comes with the preserving Valyrian blood part.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

We've been led to believe that following Aegon's conquest of Westeros that the Targaryens adopted the faith of the seven as their religion while keeping the practice of incestuous marriage from old Valyrian customs and their native religion. We have been told the driving force behind this common practice was to keep the blood of Valyria purer in the royal family. While this is highly likely to be one of the reasons contributing to the continuation of the practice I'd like to illustrate why I believe that instead a logical practical reason is one of the driving forces behind the custom.

In my view it ultimately comes down to land. Directly the Targaryens control only the Crownlands with the rest of Westeros under the rule of the many Lords Paramount. In terms of resources I believe it is fair to argue that the Crownlands are not one of the most powerful regions of Westeros. In particular they are outmatched very clearly by:

The Reach

The Westerlands

The North

and the Vale of Arryn

You see marriages in this fantasy world are a double edged sword just as they were in medieval times. A marriage is the only way to secure a reliable alliance yet by marrying into another family that family can also gain a claim on your possessions.

I believe the Targaryens were aware that by often marrying daughters into the very prestigious (not so much in the Tyrells case) and directly more powerful (very much the Tyrells case) families of the Arryns, Starks, Lannisters and Tyrells they risked losing the throne and so would only do so with several secure heirs. As an example imagine if Aerys had never had Rhaegar and only had Viserys and Daenerys. Let's say Viserys, for arguments sake, is a terrible king and has a weak heir or no male heir at all. If Daenerys had married say Robb Stark and had several intelligent male heirs you've got a rebellion in the making.

By marrying incestuously you ensure that the claims to the throne stay within the royal family and even during a civil war a Targaryen is bound to be sitting the throne at the end of it.

In support of my theory I present that when not marrying incestuously the predominant tradition of marrying females into the House of Velaryon, which would help continue the symbolic tradition of up keeping Valyrian blood but also wouldn't be a particular danger. The Velaryons are a prestigious family but not a particularly powerful one. Other notable families that are married into share similar traits. The Martells are powerful and prestigious as are the Hightowers but neither present as great a danger as the four families mentioned above.

So that's my theory. Incest to protect the family in a nutshell. It's notable that one of the major times they strayed from this tradition, i.e Rhaelle Targaryen's marriage into House Baratheon backfired as it gave Robert a claim on the Iron Throne.

Theory sound, tidy up possible rivals in the make. I think there is a theory that about an Edrick stark taking on beron stark childrens claim using serena's stark superior claim (unfortunately dates don't match), also there's historical precedent namely Edward III and the hundred years war.

[The Dragon King]

I've long thought that the Targ weakness was not having strong land, and that they should have tried to marry high ranking daughters of the Great Houses, and then marry those children to strictly bred cousins, acting as a (Targ reservoir) to preserve their blood.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Robert had no claim to the throne. He took it by force. The rebels merely used his Targ connection as a pretext for making him king rather than Ned Stark or Robert Arryn.

Robert most definitely had a claim based on the assumption everyone in front of him had been murderized. If Aerys and his line were wiped out, as was presumed after the Rebellion, Robert was the rightful king as the eldest male descendant of Aegon. In point of fact Viserys had escaped, so Robert's claim wasn't exactly ironclad, but since Robert was by that time well-established as King, apparently Viserys' existence was ignored by all to avoid incurring Robert's wrath.

That's the same scenario the OP is hinting at, I think, where Robb's and Daenerys's sons kill Viserys and his sons until one of them has the best claim.

Now if you want to say Robert didn't have a claim before the Rebellion, that would be true. After it, at least based on the prevailing assumptions, he did.

[Kienn]

The Starks at least don't.

That's pretty definitive with so many blanks...

[Lord Thaeglei of Frostpyre]

Then again there was a Targaryen- Arryn marriage. Viserys I first wife was Aemma Arryn. Though of course a male Targaryen marrying an Arryn would not be that dangerous.

Well Lady Aemma Arryn was herself half Targaryen.. Aemma's mother was Princess Daella Targaryen, daughter of King Jaehaerys I and Queen Alysanne.. Viserys I and Aemma were first cousins.. that is why Princess Rhaenyra was proud of her bloodline saying that she has more Targaryen blood in her that her half-brother Aegon II who was half Hightower..

[No Song so Sweet]

murderized

Dude you are the best haha.

About the OP, mistrust is one of the reasons of Incest. Another one maybe is pride, that many Targs wouldn't settle for a "lesser" Westerosi noble of the major families if they could have a Targ mate, even if it was their sibling. Whatever, it is still sick as hell and has cost them greatly. They should instead expand to more families and make a male-inheritance line, that way the claim of the throne would always remain with them.

[The Bittersteel]

Dude you are the best haha.

About the OP, mistrust is one of the reasons of Incest. Another one maybe is pride, that many Targs wouldn't settle for a "lesser" Westerosi noble of the major families if they could have a Targ mate, even if it was their sibling. Whatever, it is still sick as hell and has cost them greatly. They should instead expand to more families and make a male-inheritance line, that way the claim of the throne would always remain with them.

The issue I'd take with a prestige argument would be that if the Targaryens were that concerned with marrying into non-valyrian families the only times they didn't they'd make sure to marry the most prestigious families in westeros predominantly, i.e the Arryns, Lannisters and Starks, which they don't.