Quentyn Martell ADWD (spoilers)

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I dont think they are acting weird, I think you think they are acting weird because you have come up with a conclusion and contort the evidence to fit it. I think the at majority of your interpretations are wrong and the onus is on you to prove things like "acting weird" and "Quentyn lives". Hint: you're failing to prove anything at all. It's not my job to prove your argument wrong, its your job to convince me your argument is right

They're acting weird. Here's my argument:

Go to 6:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPI5eDuFfAw

[ChillyPolly]

Not either, both, and supported by the text of ADWD, tell us Dany is a rare case of showing immunity to fire and that Quentyn assuredly had no resistance at all. I mean his last chapter starts with him putting his hand over candleflame and immediately withdrawing it over the pain.

Presumably, this is the same thing that might have happened had Dany put her hand over a candle flame. GRRM has seemed to assure us that Dany has no constantly-operating fire immunity either.

BTW, candle flames are small flames, but they are not cool flames. That is why they burn yellow rather than red.

[Bryanfury]

They're acting weird. Here's my argument:

Go to 6:35

Disagree with that interpretation. Try another one

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Disagree with that interpretation. Try another one

You have no counter-arguments. So, the conversation is done.

[littleRickon]

Hey Chilli, mad props for keeping up the flag while remaining perfectly civil, polite and rational. I also salute your ability not to fall into the A is right vs B is right trap, your position is clearly that Quentyn could be alive, not that he is. And I agree. It's a lovely little theory that I hold dear, and while I would wouldn't bet on it, I still hope it's true. You've pretty much said it all, I just want to stress again how conveniently GRRM gives us descriptions of Arch and Ducks personality that don't match their behavior, a personality switch waiting to happen as one aptly put it with the TP best known by his cape, an escape route and a body burnt beyond recognition. I think he clearly sets up the possibility of Shenanigans here and if people chose to ignore that they are diminishing their ADwD reading experience regardless of whether GRRM chooses to take this route or not. The mystery is already there to be appreciated, just as with so many other parts of the books.

edit: typo

[Hrafntýr]

Hey Chilli, mad props for keeping up the flag while remaining perfectly civil, polite and rational. I also salute your ability not to fall into the A is right vs B is right trap, your position is clearly that Quentyn could be alive, not that he is. And I agree. It's a lovely little theory that I hold dear, and while I would bet on it, I still hope it's true. You've pretty much said it all, I just want to stress again how conveniently GRRM gives us descriptions of Arch and Ducks personality that don't match their behavior, a personality switch waiting to happen as one aptly put it with the TP best known by his cape, an escape route and a body burnt beyond recognition. I think he clearly sets up the possibility of Shenanigans here and if people chose to ignore that they are diminishing their ADwD reading experience regardless of whether GRRM chooses to take this route or not. The mystery is already there to be appreciated, just as with so many other parts of the books.

:agree: , especially with the bolded part, which is a rare ability!

[John Suburbs]

Um, no. You're the one who came in here after three pages of civil dialogue and said "no way, no how, not ever." The rest of us were merely discussing the possibility.

I put the onus on you to prove your certainty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Bryanfury]

I put the onus on you to prove your claims with conclusive evidence and not put forth an argument and demand it be disproven. I you want to go against the grain, it's on you to convince others, not on others to convince you

[JonSnow4President]

I put the onus on you to prove your claims with conclusive evidence and not put forth an argument and demand it be disproven. I you want to go against the grain, it's on you to convince others, not on others to convince you

He's laid out evidence that, as far as I know, cannot be contradicted. It is nowhere near 100% indicative, for sure. However, Quentin isn't in the dragon fire in his POV. It ends when he notices his arms are burning. We don't have an "on screen" death (a huge red flag with Martin) Since I didn't pay attention, I'm taking his word for it that the characters are acting out of character. We later have an unidentifiable body claimed to be Quentin, with no distinguishing features other than the lack of features. He's set out in good faith, made connections that cannot be refuted, and presents what is a valid argument.

You on the other hand come in and say I disagree, you're wrong, and don't offer any real refutation of his points. It's your turn for the rebuttal pal. (And I actually agree that Quentin is dead, but I'll keep my reasons to myself for now.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I put the onus on you to prove your claims with conclusive evidence and not put forth an argument and demand it be disproven. I you want to go against the grain, it's on you to convince others, not on others to convince you

Then you're not contributing. The point of discussion is to share ideas and discover new things. All you're doing is sitting back and saying "nope." You're participation is not of worth.

[Bryanfury]

Then you're not contributing. The point of discussion is to share ideas and discover new things. All you're doing is sitting back and saying "nope." You're participation is not of worth.

This thread is not 'of worth'. What do you want me to do, quote half a chapter and say "LOOK, QUENTYN DIED!"? You're just gonna sit back and say "nope". Here's the crux of the issue: the general interpretation of Quentyn's final chapter in ADWD is that he turns to face one of the dragons, feels a "furnace" of wind, and notices that he is ON FIRE.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

He SAW that he was burning all over. Not burning as in the fire is causing his skin to boil and blister, but he is literally on fire just like the whip is.

So what happened after he was burned to a crisp? This:

At his command, Quentyn Martell had been laid out in the queen’s own bed.

Hmm. But maybe Quentyn was moved after he was placed there! OH wait:

Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him.

Nope, couldn't possibly have happened unless Missandei decided to join Quentyns plan for some unknown reason!

So maybe the switch came before he was moved, right? BUT HOLD ON!

After the girl was gone, the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell’s face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince’s flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus.

Now from what I can see, despite all the missing and burned flesh, Barristan is still able to tell that it is Quentyn Martell's face he is looking at!

So please, pray tell, how on earth could Quentyn possibly be alive when we are in his POV when he gets burned, and between his POV and Barristans we know he is moved to the Queens chamber, watched every day and night by Missandei, and upon his death is ID'd by Barristan himself? It's absolute insanity to interpret this any other way. How embarrassing that I actually had to quote the things that you should already have read, things that should have informed you already of the ludicrous crackpottery of this ridiculous theory.

Oh but his companions "act weird". Well colour me completely swayed! :thumbsdown:

This alternative interpretation of Quentyn being alive just completely does not have even remotely enough substance to make me think it were true. So try harder or get over the fact that this 'theory' isn't going to be well received.

[Hrafntýr]

Aw, come on, bryanfury, what Chilly Polly has done is to point out pretty clearly that there is, in fact, an offscreen gap between the moment when Quentyn sees himself on fire and Barristan reflecting upon the unrecognizable body dying in Dany's bed, an offscreen gap during which a number of actors (the Windblown, the dragons) disappear from the pit. Personally, I think it's probably the case that Quentyn is dead, but I've appreciated the clear outlining of the possibility that he is alive: I'm convinced, in other words, that it is possible, even if it may not be the most probable outcome.

[Bryanfury]

It's not unrecognisable though. Barristan recognises his face. He does not say that Quentyns face is unrecognisable. He does not describe the face as unrecognisable. That's completely made-up. There is also zero textual evidence that during the 'offscreen gap' that a switch was made (the fact that Barristan clearly recognises the smouldering writhing mess in Danys bed as Quentyn is proof to the contrary). What's happened is people like the OP have thought "Wouldn't it be cool if Quentyn was alive?" and worked backwards to try and contort the evidence into proving he is. Both the Barristan ADWD chapter and the TWOW Tyrion chapter are at odds with this silly theory. It's just not possible at all.

[Hrafntýr]

"He has no lips."

"So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus."

Barristan most certainly believes this corpse is that of Quentyn. But it's hard to see how there's enough left of the corpse for a positive identification.

As for the assertion that this theory is just wish fulfillment, I'd say that my interest in what was said here came not from some desire for Quentyn to be alive but rather from a general dissatisfaction with Quentyn's storyline, a sense that there could be more to come, more than just a pretext for Dorne being pissed with Dany. As I said above, I personally think that it's most likely that Quentyn is dead, but I've really appreciated seeing the case being made that he's not, as it gives me another possibility to keep in mind as I read.

[Mithras]

The only sensible "Quentyn is alive" theory is that Doran paid his blood debt with false coin. He has a good access to children from the Water Gardens. He could easily father a bastard or find a guy who looks like Quentyn and send him to the Yronwoods, which makes the "Quentyn" who died an impostor. Real Quentyn could be somewhere in Essos.

This is just a theory, I do not buy it but still, it can be argued this way.

It makes no sense that Quentyn (or the guy we know as Quentyn) survived the encounter. The lad who had three POV chapters in ADwD is dead.

[Bryanfury]

"He has no lips."

"So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus."

Barristan most certainly believes this corpse is that of Quentyn. But it's hard to see how there's enough left of the corpse for a positive identification.

See, this is what I'm talking about. The evidence is that this is Quentyn. We know Quentyn got burned, we know this burned man was ID'd as Quentyn, we know this burned man died. That's the evidence.

But if you invent a conclusion, you can go backwards and twist the text into a meaning that isn't actually there:

Quentyn is secretly alive (initial conclusion, no specific textual evidence to confirm this)

We know this because the burned man might actually be someone else (supposition that Barristan is mistaken, there is no actual evidence that he is mistaken)

Which means there was a switch in the 'offscreen gap' (supposition that a switch took place, with nothing to support it except the initial conclusion)

And he made the switch because he actually succeeded in taming the dragon and wasn't actually badly burned (supposition that he is fire resistant with flimsy supporting evidence relating to absence of specific descriptions by an author known for subtle writing, and an additional supposition that the taming worked with ZERO evidence at all)

It goes on. Nothing even remotely fits unless you are alraedy assuming that Quentyn is alive. This is not how a theory is brought about; nobody said "Aha, Rhaegar and Lyanna = Jon, let's find evidence to prove it!". They took the clues given and worked up. If you take the clues of Quentyns story (if you can call blatant POV descriptions of the events clues), you come to the conclusion that Quentyn died. It's that simple.

[Ser Eric]

Well, when you add up the facts; namely, the name of the chapter itself (dragontamer), the slightly peculiar conversation between Barristan, Gerris and Archie, the fact that Quentyn's body is severely burnt and that Quentyn only screams when he sees the fire and not when he feels it (there's no indication that he felt it all) I can see why the "Quentyn is Alive" theory has come into being. I think he is dead but I can also see why some people thnk he might not be so.

[Bryanfury]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61113-did-quentyn-succeed-spoilers/page-5

Heres a two year old thread posing the exact same stuff. Good read. Minds like Ran and AM disagree with the premise of this theory and the interpretations of evidence people make. I'm afraid this just isn't a matter of debate. Quentyns death is so black and white it's not funny.

[Hrafntýr]

The only sensible "Quentyn is alive" theory is that Doran paid his blood debt with false coin. He has a good access to children from the Water Gardens. He could easily father a bastard or find a guy who looks like Quentyn and send him to the Yronwoods, which makes the "Quentyn" who died an impostor. Real Quentyn could be somewhere in Essos.

This is just a theory, I do not buy it but still, it can be argued this way.

It makes no sense that Quentyn (or the guy we know as Quentyn) survived the encounter. The lad who had three POV chapters in ADwD is dead.

I'm familiar with this theory, and see it as also plausible; it's another one that I keep in mind as I read.

I'd also add, in support of the premise that this thread is entertaining, that twice in the same chapter that opens with Barristan describing the corpse we get characters noting that they witnessed Dany burning with their own eyes: once Barristan ("Her hair was afire. I saw that too. She was burning...") and once the Green Grace ("...we saw her burning, that day in the pit...even she was not safe from the dragon's wroth.").

Yes, I've already read the arguments upthread about the difference between burning described from the perspective of the person being burned vs. a person witnessing from a distance, so no need to rehash that point. But to take Barristan's assumption that the corpse in the bed is Quentyn as 100% valid proof that the corpse is Quentyn seems problematic, given that the novels often demonstrate the ways in which characters' assumptions shape their perceptions, i.e. that people see what they expect to see.

Ser Eric: that's a really nice point about the title of the chapter, "The Dragontamer." Thus far we've seen these non-name chapter titles used to indicate hidden identity or it would seem, a character who is on the way to claiming or reclaiming his or her identity. Thus, Quentyn's chapter headings might support either the theory that Paper Waver describes, that this was never Quentyn to begin with, the possibility that Quentyn's narrative arc is not yet complete (that is, that he's still alive), or the possibility that he never became the person that he might have become (that is, that he died before he could become the true Prince of Dorne). Incidentally, later in the Barristan chapter the Widower mockingly refers to Quentyn as "the dragonrider."

[The guy from the Vale]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61113-did-quentyn-succeed-spoilers/page-5

Heres a two year old thread posing the exact same stuff. Good read. Minds like Ran and AM disagree with the premise of this theory and the interpretations of evidence people make. I'm afraid this just isn't a matter of debate. Quentyns death is so black and white it's not funny.

Because Ran and AM are never wrong? They are certainly smart, they are good at interpreting this stuff, but they are by no means infallible.

I agree with others - while there's no solid evidence that Quentyn is alive, I can see the plot hooks that make it a possible interpretation of the events so far.