Seriously, where's the logic in Balon's plan?

[Frey Pie]

Is 7 a small number?

How many Riverlords were represented when Robb was crowned?

Lychester? Roote? Goodbrook? Not huge names. I actually can't find my got copy but off the top of my head Frey, Mallister, Blackwood, bracken, Tully, vance, pyper and perhaps darry- could be wrong though

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lychester? Roote? Goodbrook? Not huge names. I actually can't find my got copy but off the top of my head Frey, Mallister, Blackwood, bracken, Tully, vance, pyper and perhaps darry- could be wrong though

How do you determine who is a big name?

The Houses that were prominently featured were those ones most loyal or near Riverrun. It had nothing to do with their prominence as a House.

On top of the 7 mentioned sitting outside Riverrun you also have the Brackens laying siege to the Blackwoods and the Darry lands being controlled by Lannisters.

[Frey Pie]

How do you determine who is a big name?

The Houses that were prominently featured were those ones most loyal or near Riverrun. It had nothing to do with their prominence as a House.

On top of the 7 mentioned sitting outside Riverrun you also have the Brackens laying siege to the Blackwoods and the Darry lands being controlled by Lannisters.

Really?! The only member of house roote we know of was a squire to a Charlton, who are vassals of the Freys. Hardly in the same league as the Mallisters. ..

[Ramsay Gimp]

It seems likely that the Riverlords weren't as gung-ho about independence as the Northmen. The Riverlands doesn't have a long history of independence like the North and it shares more cultural traits with the South. "Even their gods are wrong." I highly doubt any of the Tully bannermen would have suggested crowning Robb in AGOT like the Greatjon did, and we can't know how enthusiastic they were in that scene.

That's not to say they weren't loyal to Robb (within reason), only that the idea of an independent kingdom probably didn't appeal to them as much.

It's interesting to contrast Robb and Tywin at the end of AGOT. Robb brings all his lords and allies together for a grand strategy session, responding to everyone's advice, and then follows the course set by the Greatjon's rousing speech. Tywin on the other hand brings his lords together only briefly, not making his thoughts/intentions known and then dismisses them when it is clear they can't agree or offer anything useful. He then confers privately with Tyrion and Kevan to decide on a course of action. If Robb had just sat down with his mother, Edmure, and the Blackfish to chart a strategy after Ned was killed he could have avoided the folly of being declared King in the North and Trident. Cat had enough political savvy and her uncle had enough military experience to offer Robb and Edmure sound advice.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Really?! The only member of house roote we know of was a squire to a Charlton, who are vassals of the Freys. Hardly in the same league as the Mallisters. ..

The Dustins and Ryswells were barely mentioned in the first 3 books and yet they look to be important Houses in the North.

You can't judge the importance of a House on how many times of their family have been mentioned in this series. It is a series told from POV's.

The Mallisters seem like good, honorable people, but I would not equate that with them being a powerful House. In the very first book Tywin is told of the Mallisters and the Freys are still free but he does not think the Mallisters are powerful to be a threat.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The Mallisters seem like good, honorable people, but I would not equate that with them being a powerful House. In the very first book Tywin is told of the Mallisters and the Freys are still free but he does not think the Mallisters are powerful to be a threat.

After the RW Tywin also says "the Freys can keep the Mallisters penned up at Seagard," which seems to indicate that the Freys are powerful enough to subdue House Mallister on their own. But Seagard itself must be a reasonably strong castle since it withstood the Greyjoy assault and was chosen by Robb to house Catelyn

This is getting way off-topic though.

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

The Dustins and Ryswells were barely mentioned in the first 3 books and yet they look to be important Houses in the North.

You can't judge the importance of a House on how many times of their family have been mentioned in this series. It is a series told from POV's.

The Mallisters seem like good, honorable people, but I would not equate that with them being a powerful House. In the very first book Tywin is told of the Mallisters and the Freys are still free but he does not think the Mallisters are powerful to be a threat.

The Mallisters are powerful. They hold one of three coastal towns in the Riverlands. They'd be getting trade from Oldtown, Lannisport and the Arbor. Also Seagard was built to withstand the Ironborn and did so successfully in the first Greyjoy Rebellion. I'd say the Mallisters are the second most powerful of the Tully bannermen after the Freys

[Frey Pie]

The Dustins and Ryswells were barely mentioned in the first 3 books and yet they look to be important Houses in the North.

You can't judge the importance of a House on how many times of their family have been mentioned in this series. It is a series told from POV's.

The Mallisters seem like good, honorable people, but I would not equate that with them being a powerful House. In the very first book Tywin is told of the Mallisters and the Freys are still free but he does not think the Mallisters are powerful to be a threat.

The Mallisters have all the signs of being a very powerful house. When Robb leaves the Twins he has 4000 horse. At riverrun he has 6000. This is purely from lord Mallister and soke hedge knights freeriders etc. So we can roughly say Mallister has 500-1000 decent cavalry which is a large number for any lord. Later lord jason is in charge of I believe three or four Fords at the battle against Tywin, successfully defending them with his own men

Cat describes him and his entourage as rich

They successfully beat off a full blown ironborn invasion led by one of balons sons. Jason Mallister killed three Targaryen bannermen at the Trident

All in all they are shown to be good competent men, rich, and with a large number of soldiers, comparable (but less imo) to the Freys

[Frey Pie]

After the RW Tywin also says "the Freys can keep the Mallisters penned up at Seagard," which seems to indicate that the Freys are powerful enough to subdue House Mallister on their own. But Seagard itself must be a reasonably strong castle since it withstood the Greyjoy assault and was chosen by Robb to house Catelyn

This is getting way off-topic though.

The Mallisters must have lost a decent number of men with the amount of battles they had taken part in- whispering wood, the Camps, the Fords etc. And the Freys are more numerous I would think

As for your above post this is the difference between Robb and Tywin's command styles. Tywin is more aloof, while Robb is more charismatic and let's everyone speak. This leads to mistakes from both- rob as you say and Tywin in appointing his cousin to high command of the reserves

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

At first I believed this, but looking back on it I can actually see the logic in Balon's plan-he managed to capture Moat Cailin and Deepwood Moat-two pretty high value targets. The thing is that the IB don't even use all there potential to capture the north. If Theon had left winterfell with Bran and Rickon he could of got something in return from the Starks/Crown. Military wise the plan is a success because it captures the North by complete surprise and traps them in the Riverlands.

The alternative would be to attack Lannisport which would be bloody at best since they have the best watch in the 7 kingdoms, the IB have no chance to get Casterly Rock, and Tywin lannister evokes more fear than Robb Stark.

But there is also Kayce, Feastfires, Fair Isle, the Banefort, the Crag and Crakehall all right next to the sea, with most of the castles so poorly defended that Robb takes many by storm in a few hours.

There is gold, fertile land and most importantly a large percentage of the west is within striking distance of the sunset sea.

The north on the other hand is 3-4 times the size of the west, with more than half of the major castles on the eastern side, out of the reach of the Ironmen, Balon truly was mad if he though he could take even half of the north, let alone hold it.

[Bryanfury]

Ser Arthur Hightower, stop using logic and reason to explain why Balon made a poor choice to attack the North. You'll invite the Ironjockeys in to tell you how biased you are!

[George48]

Balon's plan was just... retarded.

Balon himself was an idiot when it came to wage war... but he was improving.

The second time he attacked at the right time and lost only one son(but gained an other daughter) and maybe next time he would know where to attack and lose no sons. I'm sure that if he would have lived he would have won the fourth or fifth time he would have won

[Salafi Stannis]

You're looking for logic? I thought you said this was Balon's plan?

[hodorisfaclessman]

Except cat thinks an agreement between them and nobody thinks of them as natural enemies. Hell they even parley with each other and try to sort it out. Tyrion and cersei can't get over there luck that the two are fighting. How balon can tell they are enemies before anyone else is beyond me. And is everyone as sure Renly will fight his brother? Not to me

Cat hopes they can agree and concentrate on KL for her own reasons

Cersei and tyrion cant belive stannis would attack renly with such a pitiful force but are greatful for the extra delay it forces on renly massive force bearing down on them

How could they be anything but enemies? renly has usurped the stormlords from stannis and with the tyrells seems set to try for the throne which stannis has openly declared is his , the fact they are willing to talk beffore hand doesnt alter that

hell renly has no reason to not seem generous as he feels hes about to kerb stomp his brothers tiny force so he might as well try and make him see reason, given the taboo on kinslaying he at least has to appear to be trying to reach out to stannis before he has him killed.

[hodorisfaclessman]

But there is also Kayce, Feastfires, Fair Isle, the Banefort, the Crag and Crakehall all right next to the sea, with most of the castles so poorly defended that Robb takes many by storm in a few hours.

There is gold, fertile land and most importantly a large percentage of the west is within striking distance of the sunset sea.

The north on the other hand is 3-4 times the size of the west, with more than half of the major castles on the eastern side, out of the reach of the Ironmen, Balon truly was mad if he though he could take even half of the north, let alone hold it.

Theres just as many weakly defended castles in the north west but they dont have a navy or 10k fully assembled under staffon near the coast

There is gold and fertile land there yes, but the north has much much more land plenty of it fertile and more importantly timber

If he aimed to take it all and only ended up with say 15- 20% thats still vast vast tracts of land with huge forrests being on the western side ....hell bear island alone is as big as great wyk and seems to be timber rich

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg

[thelittledragonthatcould]

But there is also Kayce, Feastfires, Fair Isle, the Banefort, the Crag and Crakehall all right next to the sea, with most of the castles so poorly defended that Robb takes many by storm in a few hours.

There is gold, fertile land and most importantly a large percentage of the west is within striking distance of the sunset sea.

The north on the other hand is 3-4 times the size of the west, with more than half of the major castles on the eastern side, out of the reach of the Ironmen, Balon truly was mad if he though he could take even half of the north, let alone hold it.

Robb takes the Crag, which is barely defended as the Westerlings are now a poor House and is described as being a more of a ruin than a castle and Ashemark, which we know little about. Just because these two were poorly defended does not mean they all are.

[joluoto2]

As I have said many times. The logical thing for Balon would have been to do nothing. He can't win either way.

[alienarea]

Ironborn don't do logic. They pay the iron price and die.