Seriously, where's the logic in Balon's plan?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Does anybody think it would of been wiser for Balon to attack the westerlands with Robb?

Would have been the best course to pursue his goal of independence. It was even less well-defended than the North, would yield far greater riches, be easier to defend, and keeping it would sit well with at least one of the parties in the Wot5K and two neutral parties. He and Robb would form the strongest side, by the way.

That's the opinion of Baelor Blacktyde, the most greenlandish of the Ironborn.

Asha Greyjoy and Rodrik Harlaw share it as well.

Not much. But the loot isn't what's valuable in the North, the land is. Especially for the Ironborn.

Only if you can hold it.

Considering Asha supported Balon's plan, and that she is extremely enthusiastic about getting Sea Dragon Point, I think she's simply taking that stance to differentiate herself from her competitors at the Kingsmoot.

Meh, she went along after he decided on the battle plan, no use protesting afterwards. Furthermore, she was very, very careful not to make more enemies than absolutely necessary.

Balon's big problem is that he aimed too high, declaring independence robbed him of any alliances he could have seeked against the North, and besides, capturing the whole North would've been impossible without support from another major faction, they simply aren't that strong, and the West Coast is worth enough anyways.

Ironborn independence was an unreachable dream, and Balon was a fool for not realizing that.

Robb could have made that dream come true.

[Sullen]

Asha Greyjoy and Rodrik Harlaw share it as well.

Asha also remembers Balon's wisdoms and bases what she does on what Balon would have done when she deals with Stannis in ADwD, I don't think she'd base her behaviour on a man she considers mad. As for Harlaw, he is not exactly representative of the Ironborn.

Using Harlaw and Blacktyde to show that the Ironborn didn't support Balon is like taking Dustin, Bolton, and Karstark to point out that the Northmen didn't think Robb was worth following. They're a minority, no more.

Only if you can hold it.

Which you can, if you get the support of the Crown.

Meh, she went along after he decided on the battle plan, no use protesting afterwards. Furthermore, she was very, very careful not to make more enemies than absolutely necessary.

She could have tried convincing him, Balon had an obvious blind spot for his daughter, as Aeron points out. She thought Balon's plan was a good idea, only to change her mind when she needs to.

Robb could have made that dream come true.

I disagree here. Should the Iron Throne send a fleet, any fleet, to the Islands, there is nothing the Northmen can do to protect their allies. Ironborn independence is only possible with a completely fractured Kingdom. I also highly doubt Robb would support perpetual war with the South, which is what he would have gotten if he decided to ally with Balon.

[The Bittersteel]

That's the opinion of Baelor Blacktyde, the most greenlandish of the Ironborn.

Not much. But the loot isn't what's valuable in the North, the land is. Especially for the Ironborn.

Considering Asha supported Balon's plan, and that she is extremely enthusiastic about getting Sea Dragon Point, I think she's simply taking that stance to differentiate herself from her competitors at the Kingsmoot.

Balon's big problem is that he aimed too high, declaring independence robbed him of any alliances he could have seeked against the North, and besides, capturing the whole North would've been impossible without support from another major faction, they simply aren't that strong, and the West Coast is worth enough anyways.

Ironborn independence was an unreachable dream, and Balon was a fool for not realizing that.

Ironically this is what robbed Robb Stark of alliances against Joffrey.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Which you can, if you get the support of the Crown.

Tell that to Roose Bolton. He'll soon lose it, and he is a Northman himself.

She could have tried convincing him, Balon had an obvious blind spot for his daughter, as Aeron points out. She thought Balon's plan was a good idea, only to change her mind when she needs to.

She most likely did. Before he made his final decision and Theon returned home. Asha had never deluded herself.

I disagree here. Should the Iron Throne send a fleet, any fleet, to the Islands, there is nothing the Northmen can do to protect their allies. Ironborn independence is only possible with a completely fractured Kingdom. I also highly doubt Robb would support perpetual war with the South, which is what he would have gotten if he decided to ally with Balon.

Which Iron Throne? That's just an ugly chair.

At worst, they'll be facing Renly with the full support of the Stormlands and the Reach. Against an alliance of North, Riverlands and Ironborn that's an even fight at worst. An even fight with time working for them, with the Vale and Dorne making eyes at the North or their own indepence.

If the Redwyne Fleet tries to attack the Ironborn, they have a fair chance. While Robb pushes into the Reach. If Renly pushes into the Riverlands, the Ironborn plunder the entire west coast of the Reach.

How long will the Lords of the Reach and the Stormlords throw men and money away? How long till Dorne closes the Prince's Pass and the Boneway? How long till the Vale sends men to help gain their own indepence?

[Ruthven]

1. Attack the North

2. ?????

3. Profit.

Dammit, you beat me to it!

We don't know that Balon wanted the whole North. To quote Fire Eater, we know that the other Iron Born think that he wanted it, but Victarion and Aeron aren't the best judges of anything.

But, Balon Greyjoy & logic are probably mutually exclusive.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It was a stupid plan either way you look at it

"We want independence from the Iron Throne, so let's attack the only other guy who wants independence too!"

Even if Balon had bent the knee to the Iron Throne and Tywin had let him keep whatever shitty thing from the North he got, he was still going to be fucked because a) Tywin already had a northern lapdog in Roose, and b ) the northerners wouldn't have let the Ironborn ruled over them

In every way, attacking the Westerlands was smarter. Tywin was bound to go against Balon anyway since he had crowned himself, so why not try to screw the Lannisters first?

[In A Coat of Gold]

The plan to capture the west coast and Moat Cailin was brilliant. There was just nothing after that. No real long term goal. Had Theon simply captured Bran and Rickon, razed Winterfell, and come home, they would be geniuses. Could ransom them to the Royalists for independence after the war(Tywin having both heirs to Robb ends the northern rebellion immediately.) Or ransom them to the Northmen(though a worse deal as the North was fighting a losing cause anyway.

[Colonel Green]

Could ransom them to the Royalists for independence after the war(Tywin having both heirs to Robb ends the northern rebellion immediately.)

That would never have worked, because the Iron Throne would never be able to accept the independence of the Iron Islands aiming to restore "traditional values", since for them that means raping and pillaging the mainland. Grinding the Ironborn under their bootheel is the single-most beneficial action the Iron Throne ever did the Seven Kingdoms.

[Trigger Warning]

He did offer alliance to Tywin.

Could be that he saw holding the North as a way to gain independence from the Iron Throne, help defeat Tywin's enemy that is warring in the Riverlands. Perhaps give back parts of the North or all of it to as terms for the independence of the Iron Islands or gain assurances of independence for the proposed alliance.

He saw Tywin as a greater threat and saw a way to barter with him I would imagine.

Or maybe he was an idiot and just wanted revenge against Ned by attacking the North.

[Colonel Green]

He saw Tywin as a greater threat and saw a way to barter with him I would imagine.

As Tywin himself noted, if Balon's goal was to bargain, he should have actually done that, instead of attacking the North on his own and removing any incentive for Tywin to deal with him. People don't buy the cow when the milk is free.

[Mal Malenkirk]

He wanted to bottleneck Robb out of the North and seize assets along the coast (going inland was Theon's notion) and then bargain with the IT.

It's not a good plan, but not spectacularly bad. History has shown plenty of similar miscalculations.

Truth is, the Ironborn don't have enough ressources for sustained warfare. Cruel land does not just breed cruel people, it breeds desperate people. They are a dying culture doomed to poverty and that is their dying throes.

Only magic could justify this weak a faction gaining ascendency, and it looks like Euron's gambit is precisely that, what with his magic lamp... oops, I mean magic horn.

[Dolorous Gabe]

It would have been so much smarter to ally with Robb and attack the west from the sea. Sheer pride made him act so foolishly in the face of a decent offer. If the Ironborn had taken that area from the sea and held it, Robb might never have gone over there and met Jeyne. He'd be married to Roslin Frey and, along with King Balon, could very well have got exactly what he wanted.

That wouldn't make for such an interesting story though, would it!

[hodorisfaclessman]

In hindsight it was the right move given we know that as well as the momentus task of taking lannisport, its fleet , making sure other costal lords cant send their ships , dealing with whatever force was left at casterly rock......on top of all that we know that steffan lannister was sitting outside lannisport with 10k troops!

wel never know what the follow up to the inital attacks were as they delayed any follow up for plot reasons then balon died

[Winterfell is Burning]

Does anybody think it would of been wiser for Balon to attack the westerlands with Robb?

Well, in comparison to attacking the North, ANYTHING is wiser.

But yes, I doubt Lannisport could withstand 15-20 thousand Ironborn attacking. Even if they did, there's plenty of plunder elsewhere.

Plus, it would make Tywin look much weaker, since his forces would panic, and makes it harder for anyone to join him. And attacking Tywin would please every side involved in the war of the Wot5K.

Of course, the best move would be do what the Reader proposed- pick a side in the Iron Throne war and ask for land, since the only war for survival of the Iron Islands in the long run is get more land elsewhere and profit from trade and more integration..

[Trigger Warning]

As Tywin himself noted, if Balon's goal was to bargain, he should have actually done that, instead of attacking the North on his own and removing any incentive for Tywin to deal with him. People don't buy the cow when the milk is free.

Indeed, Balon's a bit dim with that oversight.

Though I still think that was the basis of his plan.

[John Carroll]

Balon was a fool. Simple as that. He attacked the North mostly out of spite and had no long-term plan other than "hold Moat Cailin". As Asha proved, the North had nothing of value to offer and was in no way worth the effort it took to take Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte. They would have been better off attacking the Westerlands when the majority of their forces were off in the Riverlands or the Reach when they aligned themselves with the Lannisters. I don't care for Euron either, but at least he's a practical leader.

[IRON BANK]

Balon was a fool who never realized the stupidity of his actions, he rebelled against all 6 kingdoms alone which was stupid, years later he could have tried to revitilize his kingdom through trade and seafaring Balon did neither. Then Balon is offered a crown and throws it away for revenge terrible leader.

[The Kinkslayer]

It is known that all Iron Islanders get brain damage during baptism and acute iron poisoning during their whole lives.

[joluoto2]

The reasons he didn't want to go south was that he didn't want to come out on the wrong end of Tywin Lannister's wrath, and he didn't want to risk run into the Redwyne fleet, still at the Arbor at this time. Sound reasons both. The sane choice would of course have been not to act at all.

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

The reasons he didn't want to go south was that he didn't want to come out on the wrong end of Tywin Lannister's wrath, and he didn't want to risk run into the Redwyne fleet, still at the Arbor at this time. Sound reasons both. The sane choice would of course have been not to act at all.

At the time he decides to make plans to invade the North, the Reach had sided with Renly, Jaime had been captured and Robb had taken care of most of Jaime's forces. Look at what a vulnerable position Tywin was in and Balon could've benefited greatly. The Arbor's not going to lift a finger against Balon if he attacks the Westerlands so long as the Reach hasn't allied with Tywin yet.

Also that didn't stop him giving the consent to burning the Lannister fleet the first time around. If anything, the first Greyjoy rebellion showed he wasn't scared of Tywin (who did have a ruthless reputation) but became scared of Robert and Ned after. Then just out of nowhere he becomes more scared of Tywin even though he's in such a vulnerable position.