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Victarion Re-read Project


Mithras

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Lord Rodrik also has been reading a septon’s discourse on Maegor the Cruel’s war against the Poor Fellows. This is a popular theme in AFfC too. Rodrik was reading this book before the High Sparrow came to KL. So, he was somehow aware of this new sparrow movement in Riverlands and checking his archive to understand what is going on.

Lord Rodrik was also reading the Book of Lost Books by Marwyn when Asha came. We see from the Prologue of AFfC that Oldtown was very receptive to what the hell is going on in the Far East. Dragons, slave revolts and all sorts of things out there were being discussed at the inns. So, Marwyn’s book is somehow related to this new age of wonders and Lord Rodrik was interested in that too.

Lord Rodrik was also re-reading the ironborn history as a result of Aeron’s Kingsmoot. He looks like a fellow brother from the Moments of Foreshadowing threads. He spoke of a theory that Euron Greyjoy sounds like Urron Greyiron who had descended on the kingsmoot with his axemen to slay the entire participants, which resulted in his dynasty of Iron Kings for a thousand years. I think he was not completely wrong. Euron did win the kingsmoot.

The books are important. In AFfC, we see another collection of books.

During the daylight hours she would try to read, but the books that they had given her were deadly dull: ponderous old histories and geographies, annotated maps, a dry-as-dust study of the laws of Dorne, The Seven-Pointed Star and Lives of the High Septons, a huge tome about dragons that somehow made them about as interesting as newts. Arianne would have given much and more for a copy of Ten Thousand Ships or The Loves of Queen Nymeria, anything to occupy her thoughts and let her escape her tower for an hour or two, but such amusements were denied her.

We see that Arianne was given an important selection of books by Doran. Histories, geographies and maps are useful in a military campaign. The laws of Dorne are important because they apply in Dorne. For example Myrcella is the heir to IT as long as she is in Dorne because of the Dornish Law. The books about the Faith are also important because they show that Doran is aware of the sparrow movement in Riverlands. We will see that he will send Tyene to get close to High Sparrow. The dragon book is most probably Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History as suggested by Bran Vras. That is an important piece of dragonlore something which Quentyn sorely missed.

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The dragon book is most probably Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History as suggested by Bran Vras. That is an important piece of dragonlore something which Quentyn sorely missed.

Baelor I's edict to destroy Barth's writings wouldn't have applied in Dorne. I think Seven Pointed Star and Lives of High Septons could point to the HS joining her along with a tome about dragons, perhaps suggesting she'll get one, but she wants a book about Nymeria and her Ten Thousand Ships, one of Dany's historical parallels. Dany is the one thing Arianne won't have.

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AFfC – Iron Captain (Victarion I)



Plot Summary



Victarion comes to Old Wyk to press his claim in the kingsmoot. He feasts famous captains and lords to have their support. Asha is in the feast and they have a conversation. Euron comes too and an interesting Greyjoy Family Reunion takes place.



Observations



1. Victarion is a godly man, for what it is worth. He did not even blink when he knelt before Aeron and the waves soaked his boots and breeches. Aeron should be satisfied to see that, being the thickhead zealot he is. We know that Theon was hesitant to have his clothes get soaked and his eyes wept tears from the salt when Aeron poured seawater over his head in ACoK. The Iron Captain is nothing like him, nor the likes of Goodbrothers that came to Aeron in his first chapter.



2. There is bad blood between Euron and Victarion. He often ponders about killing Euron but even then, he is restraining himself somehow, be it by the curse of the Drowned God or by the word he pledged to Balon.



3. Although the news of Balon’s death and Euron’s return to Pyke with claiming the Seastone Chair for himself reached Victarion, he did not abandon Moat Cailin. He continued to obey Balon’s command. Only after the word of the kingsmoot came, he left Moat Cailin. Such a “dutiful” brother might make Stannis weep with joy.



4. Ship names are very important and they come up quite often in Victarion’s chapters. Grief is a ship in the Iron Fleet and she is a close companion of Victarion’s Iron Victory. Iron Vengeance is also mentioned with them. It sounds like Victarion is burdened with grief and vengeance, his two companions,.



5. Victarion spotted Silence, the infamous ship of Euron and felt the old rage. He commanded some of his captains to blockade the Silence with their ships, just in case.



6. Victarion knows almost all the ships in Iron Islands by name and quality and their crew too. He feels a certain pride for being that way.



7. Victarion has no luck with wives. His first wife died in childbed, giving him a stillborn daughter. His second had been stricken by a pox. And his third... he killed his third wife by beating her to death with his own fists.



8. Baelor Blackftyde wants to end this war just like The Reader told Asha. We know that he consulted Lord Rodrik from the previous chapter. Victarion wished Asha stayed out of this business for her own good but she was there.



9. We talked about how the three sons of Gorold Goodbrother were indistinguishable and how they represent Balon, Euron and Aeron as the Kings of the Iron Islands in their quest to revive the Old Way. In Victarion’s feast, two of them fought and knocked a table. That might be clue for Aeron-Euron dynamic.



10. Victarion is still plagued by his only defeat at the Battle of Fair Isle.



11. Euron’s right eye is blue. His smiling eye. We finally see this Euron for the first time. He seems like a dangerous man.



12. Asha is being foolish by exchanging bawdy insults with Euron’s pets. That does her no good.



13. That awkward erection.



14. Victarion thinks that the glory of burning the Lannister Fleet belongs to him but it was Euron’s plan as both Asha and Theon told so.



Analysis



Introduction



1. Hard Times, Hard Places



Seafarer’s life is a tough one. Any man who is not able to defend his personal space from the others may end up as a buttboy (we will first handedly witness this). Small wonder the hardships of this life shaped the entire culture of the ironborn as it is.



As a result, exploiting the weak is a basic rule in Iron Islands. In fact, this is the sign of a relatively primitive culture. The people of the Sisters used to throw the dwarf born into the sea but the septons and maesters forbade it. The old done Northmen are expected to go out and die during harsh winters to save the food for the younger generation. The Dothraki Way is perhaps the most merciless lifestyle as they think that it is the right of the strong to take from the weak. In the North of the Wall, the wildlings do not risk an outbreak of dangerous diseases. Val wants to kill Shireen although it is widely believed in the South that she is safe from the disease.



Every man in the Iron Islands has to prove that he has a pair. For women, things are much harder. They have to show that they can cut those pairs out if need be.



By the way, it is strange that the only highborn women we see in Iron Islands except Asha are her mother and aunt, both of whom are mad by grief. There were ladies in the hall of Gorold Goodbrother but Aeron refused to talk in their presence.



2. Hard Men



He [Theon] laughed. “Windy and cold and damp. A miserable hard place, in truth . . . but my lord father once told me that hard places breed hard men, and hard men rule the world.”



Balon was wrong. Power has many forms. For example, the Qartheen and the merchants of the Free Cities are scorned by military cultures. They are “spice soldiers and cheese lords” according to Tywin but we see that no Westerosi power can match them now. Hard men might rule the world but they need loans and goods from spice soldiers and cheese lords.



3. How to Deal With Weakness



Misogyny, bigotry, finger dance, cruelty, drunkenness, bawdy gests, abusive behavior, badass sobriquets etc. work well in general to cover up for weakness.



We also talked about how Aeron looked for salvation first in punk and then in religion (this recipe is tried by many people in real life too).



Asha, as the only female save her mother in that insane family, turned out to be a tomboy (how not). She is so immersed in her protective shell that she is unable to comprehend the chances presented to her to save herself from that doomed path. I daresay she could not learn how to be a woman.



I am aware that this introduction more or less can apply to the entire Westeros. But the Iron Islands is the place where the price of being an individual is the highest. Now we can proceed with Victarion.



Victarion’s Weakness



All that long introduction was for this moment. Victarion have several weaknesses he has to hide from the others but the root of all his woes is simply this:



He has a small penis.



I am serious.



Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. “He put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He sent Euron into exile, never to return . . .”


“. . . so long as Balon lived?”


Victarion looked at his fists. “She gave me horns. I had no choice.” Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow’s Eye laughed when I confronted him. “She came to me wet and willing,” he had boasted. “It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters.” But he could not tell her that.



Victarion did not suffer what Aeron had to go through because of his size and age. Aeron said the Drowned God gives every man a gift and his gift was to piss longer and farther than any man. That is almost pathetic when the gifts of Victarion are concerned. Victarion is a giant of a man only to be surpassed by Andrik the Unsmiling. In addition to being large and strong, Victarion is an able captain skilled in combat. He fears no man, same as Drogo.



However, all these qualities are overshadowed by one small penis. This deficiency forces him to pump testosterone in his POVs as following:



Victarion’s eyes were as sharp as they had ever been.



Victarion’s hands closed into fists. He had beaten four men to death with those hands, and one wife as well. Though his hair was flecked with hoarfrost, he was as strong as he had ever been, with a bull’s broad chest and a boy’s flat belly.



Victarion is an alpha male minus a big penis and a sharp wit. Lacking these two important aspects of an alpha male, Victarion has a deep fear of being laughed at and mocked. In a way, he resembles Tywin in this. His insecurities resurface in many ways and many times.



“Who holds the Moat?”


“Ralf Kenning. With the Young Wolf dead, only the bog devils remain to plague us.”


“The Starks were not the only northmen. The Iron Throne has named the Lord of the Dreadfort as Warden of the North.”


“Would you lesson me in warfare? I was fighting battles when you were sucking mother’s milk.”


“And losing battles too.” Asha took a drink of wine.


Victarion did not like to be reminded of Fair Isle. “Every man should lose a battle in his youth, so he does not lose a war when he is old. You have not come to make a claim, I hope.”



No King of the Isles had ever needed a Hand, much less one who was a woman. The captains and the kings would mock me in their cups.



He feared that the captains would mock him if he had Asha as his right hand. This insecurity dangerously leads him to find excuses for his failures or turn blind eye to good counsel. Asha was right about the Moat Cailin and the North. Yet Victarion refused to see her point because he didn’t want to be lessoned in war by a woman. That is mainly because he thought that his captains would mock him for that, even if that woman was Asha.



Victarion also produces a good excuse for his only defeat at the Battle of Fair Isle. Do I buy it? Hell no.



The Salt Wife



Victarion knew that to mean the girl did not have a hump. Yet when he tried to picture her, he only saw the wife he’d killed. He had sobbed each time he struck her, and afterward carried her down to the rocks to give her to the crabs.



From his POV, this act of Victarion looks like a necessary evil, an ugly thing that must be done in the name of honor. He specifically mentions that he had sobbed while beating her to death. But there is a giant POV bias here.



We talked about how Victarion cannot abide being mocked and how he has a small penis. I think Euron was right in his account. The salt wife went willingly to Euron because he is the most comely Greyjoy brother and he has everything that Victarion lacked. We will learn that he knows well how to please a woman. She probably thought that Euron would save her from his brother. It seems that she did not have the chance to learn more about the character of Euron.



Victarion said that he was forced to kill his wife but there was nothing to force him to kill her actually. That is something he chooses not to think about and he convinces himself in an alternate reality. In that way, he is similar to how Aeron never feels responsible of causing the fatal wound on Urri and blaming the master for his death. Victarion is blaming Euron for the death of his salt wife and so he tries to avoid facing his inadequacies.



Victarion as a follower



In the Iron Islands, a captain is a king in his own ship and every king must be a captain. Victarion is the best captain in the Iron Islands but that does not make him a ruler, much less a king material. Victarion needs to be guided. He does not surprise us in his POV because he is just like the dutiful great bullock Theon described him as, who has neither the ambition nor the cunning to plot. The fact that he insisted on obeying Balon’s command to hold Moat Cailin although Balon died and Euron returned tells us much.



Sharp Eyes



Although Victarion’s mind’s eye is a little, err, blind, he has sharp eyes. Since he looks/thinks simple, the things he notices in his POVs are generally true, although he does not make any sense from them all the time. One can also call this GRRM’s gift to his dumb captain.



Victarion joined Nute the Barber at her prow. Ahead loomed the sacred shore of Old Wyk and the grassy hill above it, where the ribs of Nagga rose from the earth like the trunks of great white trees, as wide around as a dromond’s mast and twice as tall.



This is what I was trying to say. Victarion thinks that Nagga’s ribs resemble the trunks of great white trees. That is because I think they are really petrified remnants of an ancient weirwood grove. We will see this side of Victarion more in his later POVs (such as he will notice the glamor on Moqorro but not realize what is going on). The kindly man said glamors and artifices dissolve before sharp eyes.



More Evidence On Aeron’s Molestation



“I am more devout than even you, Aeron. Perhaps it should be you who kneels to me for blessing.”


The Red Oarsman laughed loudly at that, and the others took their lead from him.



One can imagine what kind of blessing Euron means to give to Aeron when he kneels before him. The guy is a sick f*ck.



Actually there are so many things to talk about Euron but that is enough for the OP.


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AFfC – Iron Captain (Victarion I)

Plot Summary

Victarion comes to Old Wyk to press his claim in the kingsmoot. He feasts famous captains and lords to have their support. Asha is in the feast and they have a conversation. Euron comes too and an interesting Greyjoy Family Reunion takes place.

:thumbsup: nice job once again.

He has a small penis.

I am serious.

Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. “He put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He sent Euron into exile, never to return . . .”

“. . . so long as Balon lived?”

Victarion looked at his fists. “She gave me horns. I had no choice.” Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow’s Eye laughed when I confronted him. “She came to me wet and willing,” he had boasted. “It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters.” But he could not tell her that.

Victarion did not suffer what Aeron had to go through because of his size and age. Aeron said the Drowned God gives every man a gift and his gift was to piss longer and farther than any man. That is almost pathetic when the gifts of Victarion are concerned. Victarion is a giant of a man only to be surpassed by Andrik the Unsmiling. In addition to being large and strong, Victarion is an able captain skilled in combat. He fears no man, same as Drogo.

I think this leads me to some of my first questions about Vic and Euron. Namely, what was their relationship like prior to the death of Vic's wife? Obviously Vic was spared Aeron's treatment, like you said, but did Vic know what was going on? And if he had, would he have stopped it? He loathes Euron now (with good reason) but prior to this, was there any sort of brotherly affection? Vic was very dutiful to Balon as the eldest and ruler of the Iron Islands and if there hadn't been the Salt Wife incident would Vic be as dutiful to Euron, who is older?

“And losing battles too.” Asha took a drink of wine.

Victarion did not like to be reminded of Fair Isle. “Every man should lose a battle in his youth, so he does not lose a war when he is old. You have not come to make a claim, I hope.”

Given that the Battle of Fair Isle was a major turning point in the Greyjoy rebellion, I feel like Victarion's dismissal of this just being one loosing battle is his way of compensating for the rebellion going sour. This one lost battle did end up loosing the Iron Born their war.

Victarion said that he was forced to kill his wife but there was nothing to force him to kill her actually. That is something he chooses not to think about and he convinces himself in an alternate reality. In that way, he is similar to how Aeron never feels responsible of causing the fatal wound on Urri and blaming the master for his death. Victarion is blaming Euron for the death of his salt wife and so he tries to avoid facing his inadequacies

And I think this is where most people get their "Vic is evil" stance. There are some other incidents in ADWD that they use as well, but we can discuss those later. The main one always seems to be that he killed his wife. So, my own take on the Iron Born is that they are a rather tedious lot, and very forgettable (apart from Asha and Theon but some of that is due to "screen time.") That's why I wanted to be part of your re-read because I wanted to try and see them in a different light. I recently did AFFC re-read and prior to that, had you asked me to talk about the "Kraken Nuncles" I would have mostly said, "Vic's the one that killed his wife..." It's the one thing that sticks out about him, the thing you remember if you remember nothing else. I agree that nothing forced Vic to kill his salt wife. So is he crying over actually loosing a wife, or crying over his own inadequacies?

One can imagine what kind of blessing Euron means to give to Aeron when he kneels before him. The guy is a sick f*ck.

He really really really is.

A few other things.

1. A difference between Vic and Asha. Asha comes ashore already believing that she can be Queen. She even turns down Tris because she believes that she can win the Chair and cannot take him if she's going to be Queen. Vic, on the other hand, rejects the title before going ashore because the Chair has not yet been won:

"As you command, Your Grace."

Victarion returned a soul scowl. "I am no king as yet."

Goes back to what you said about being a follower. Vic "wants" to be king in the sense that it would be his duty, not his ambition. The same goes for Euron when he enters the tent, he calls himself King Crow's Eye. Also, of course Vic scowls as he says the above. How often does Vic scowl or brood?

2. Asha and Vic's interaction: I really enjoy them together. Asha is everything Vic is not: witty, smart. And Vic has the one thing Asha does not, the thing that is stopping her from actually taking the chair: a penis, even if it is a small one.

3. Like many sociopaths, Euron is charismatic. He knows how to give a good speech, I will begrudgingly give him that. His "I am the godliest man to ever raise a sail" speech is exactly the kind of speech you want from a king of the Iron Islands: hard, without mercy, and capable. Feels a bit of a contrast to Vic whose words are always shorter.

4. The awkward erection: If Iron Born take what they want, at this moment, Vic wants Asha. He could claim her. But instead he chooses (chooses I think being key) to remember her as a little girl, throwing axes. There seems to be genuine affection between two. If Vic wasn't so set in the Iron Born ways, I think he and Asha would have made a good team as King and Hand. But the Old Ways die slow deaths.

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Another good one Paper Weaver. Can't wait for the kingsmoot.

Baelor Blacktyde is another such Ironman who seems to have taken to the customs of the greenlands. He shares the name of the septon-king.

Victarion

Whoever wins with the Seastone Chair, I shall deal with the bog devils.

Victarion feels a bit of annoyance/wounded pride at the trouble the crannogmen give him, another exmaple of his insecurities. He is not a well-read man as the Reader would probably tell him that has been attempted many times before, and none succeeded (except the Starks).

Victarion does remind me a bit of Bittersteel, a bitter, angry guy who was also a large, powerful warrior. He followed one brother in his attempt to crown himself king (Daemon/Balon), and hated and wanted to kill another brother who took the woman he desired from him (Shiera/Victarion's third wife). That brother just so happened to also kill the brother he loved.

We see him meet with many different captains and lords to win political support for his claim.

I would be reluctant to compare him to Drogo as Drogo was also gentle with Dany, and he would take "No" in their bedding. He also shows some intelligence.

Euron

Every family has it's creepy uncle, and Euron is despised by the rest of his family. I think he is subversion of the pirates in popular culture. If you look at Euron, he has all the characteristics of the pirate one would want to read about in pirate romance novels. He is cunning, daring, humorous/laughs a lot, visited exotic locales and he even has the eye patch. However, He is also a complete psychopath.

When longships learn to row through trees, perhaps. A fisherman may hook a grey leviathan, but it will drag him down to death unless he cuts it loose.

"The Citadel is not what it was," complained the blond. [Lazy Leo speaking to Sam] They will take anything these days. Dusky dogs and Dornishmen, pig boys, cripples, cretins and now a black-clad whale. And here I thought leviathans were gray.

ADwD Davos III
Behind the dais a kraken and a leviathan were locked in battle beneath the painted waves.

Foreshadowing for an attack on Oldtown? I would like to bring to mind the legend of Oleg of Novgorod, a leader of the Viking Rus who went to take the wealthy port city of Constantinople. Constantinople boasted impressive defenses with triple walls and a to fit the ships with wheels, and use horses and the wind in their sails to move the ships across land to the city itself and the channel. Oldtown is a wealthy, walled city with a boom made up of ships across its harbor. I think Euron would fit the longships with wheels, and use the winds, men and captured horses to move the ships over land to the Honeywine River, circumventing the boom.

Of course, Sam will fight in the battle, and he may be the one who slays Euron.

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AFfC – Iron Captain (Victarion I)

-Snip-

Great thread, Paper Waver! Your analysis is interesting and insightful as always.

This first closer look at Victarion and the Kingsmoot that follows are actually two of my favorite chapters. (Yes, I am quite a big fan of the Ironborn. :pirate: ) Theon gives us insight into the Ironborn life through his chapter, but it is not until Feast that we are given narrators who are "truly" Ironborn; Aeron, Asha, and Victarion.

Life on the Iron Isles appear grim and hard, indeed full of misogyny and bigotry. While their lives are not as "easy" as some other places in Westeros, they stubbornly cling onto their Old Ways, which will lead them nowhere.

Despite that, this is actually one of the reasons I enjoy the Ironborn. They are reavers, pirates and thieves, but they make no excuses for it. They might not be noble in the eyes of the rest of Westeros, but (as the Greyjoy narrators testify) they have nobler way amidst themselves. Even evil has standards... but I, for one, do not consider any of the Ironborn narrators to be "evil".

Now, certainly, I am inclined to call Euron evil because of the way that he is portrayed, and so far he has shown no redeemable qualities at all. I'm not surprised that his brothers hate him. He seems like the kind of person you should get as far away from as possible, were you unfortunate enough to meet them in real life. I do think that Theon (pre Reek) might be trying to imitate some of Euron's behavior (smiling at the "wrong" things, mocking, ect) but that is a topic for another time.

I also got kind of a Tywin vibe from Victarion's fear of being laughed at/being mocked. I agree with the points Paper Waver made, so I won't repeat them one by one, but I am not certain that his hidden insecurities come from having a small penis. We are never given a description of it, only that he thinks he can't tell Asha about what Euron mocked him with. He is a large man, and in proportion to the rest of him it may appear small, but in truth it might just be average. Small or not, I agree that he believes it is, which is the sore point.

I think that one of the reasons to his insecurity might be that he isn't as smart as his brothers, and in his first ADWD chapter he appears to be aware of it.

Victarion Greyjoy mistrusted laughter. The sound of it always left him with the uneasy feeling that he was the butt of some jape he did not understand. Euron Crow’s Eye had oft made mock of him when they were boys. So had Aeron, before he had become the Damphair. Their mockery oft came disguised as praise, and sometimes Victarion had not even realized he was being mocked. Not until he heard the laughter.

Being mocked for years as a child and a teenager can have pretty serious affects on your selfconfidence. Perhaps Balon was somewhat of a role model, someone to look up to who didn't mock him?

About his wives:

Considering what Aeron thinks of women (that they are to make babies and not to sit on the Seastone Chair or even be in the same room whilst discussing serious matters), my guess is that perhaps Victarion's previous marriages (it's never mentioned anywhere if the first two are rock or salt wives, I think?) were unhappy because he treated them badly (neglected their wishes, gave them the back of his hand, ect), not only that they died.

He spends no more than a thought about the first two wives, but thinks quite often about the third one. For understandable reasons. My opinion is that he is not evil for killing her, but it was undeniably a harsh and stupid way to deal with it. Why did she need to die? To keep the secret and protect his status? Or is it some kind of law?

He seems pretty torn up about it still after three years, and he appears to have loved her. Which makes her fate even worse. While I am a Victorian fan, I do not approve of this at all.

I do believe she cheated on him willingly, though nothing is described about her personality one could imagine that a young, presumably rather goodlooking woman would rather run off to the more charming, handsome brother than the grim, brooding one who likely abuses her and believes it is within his right.

On his relationship to Asha:

Like BearQueen87, I really enjoyed seeing them together. He seems to be truly fond of her. The only times we've seen Victarion laugh or smile have been around Asha. He chuckles at her way of demeaning Theon in ACOK, he smiles when he sees her in the tent in this chapter, he laughs (rather than his usual scowl) at her "Queensmoot", chuckles again when they walk along the beach, a small part of him thinks that it is fortunate that Asha runs off after Euron's been crowned.

While the erection is awkward, he choses to not go down that path and remembers her as a little girl instead. It's sad that they will probably never meet again.

On his relationship to Euron:

I believe they might have been somewhat "good" brothers prior to the incident with the third wife.

Aeron thinks: He has no love for Euron, though. Not since the woman died.

English is not my native language, but "not since the woman died" makes me think that perhaps he at least accepted Euron, despite the mockery, prior to this.

“I want none of your leavings,” he had told his brother scornfully, but when the Crow’s Eye said that the woman would be killed unless he took her, he had weakened. Her tongue had been torn out, but elsewise she was undamaged, and beautiful besides, with skin as brown as oiled teak. Yet sometimes when he looked at her, he found himself remembering the first woman his brother had given him, to make a man of him.

On the other hand, we have the comment about "old rage", so perhaps I'm just reading too much into it. :dunno:

Either way, I find their relationship interesting.

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Good job, Paper Waver. The analysis of Victarion's inferiority complex is really interesting.



Victarion is not like Tywin, I agree. Nor is he like Ramsay. He does not revel in torture and unlike those two, he shrinks from certain crimes. But why?



He would gladly kill Euron. There are two reasons why he doesn't kill him. He has made a promise to Balon and he knows that the gods don't like kinslayers. Nothing indicates what his personal approach to kinslaying is. Morality does not come into it. He simply does not want to be punished. He might be strong enough to kill Euron but his action would turn the Drowned God against him and he would not be strong enough then.



Strength for Victarion is the ability to defend yourself against those who are weaker than you. The wife he killed was weaker than him. So he protected himself against gossip, against ridicule, against further betrayal as well as he could. Euron was banished by Balon, the “big brother”, but it did not quench Victarion's thirst for revenge. Balon's justice was not his revenge.



Did he love her? He was probably sorry to lose her. He cried as he was beating her. Isn't it how violent husbands often do – “see, what you are doing to me, see what you are making me do to you, see how it hurts me to hurt you”? I suppose the wife was crying, too, but Victarion does not seem to remember that. He was crying for himself – his wounded pride, the betrayal he had suffered. Anyway, what sort of love could have been between them? Had he ever noticed that the wife was unhappy? I doubt the question had even occurred to him.



One could argue that it was not all his fault. His mentality is the product of his upbringing and culture. (The same could be said of the slavers' mentality in Meereen though.) Yet, we have the Reader, who is ironborn, too, and in spite of that he is apparently different.



Victarion tells Asha Euron “made him” do the killing and that he had no choice. I guess he does see it that way. The problem is Victarion always does what he thinks he is expected to do. He never thinks for himself (while the Reader obviously does), he never asks what is right or wrong, and he does not admit he made a mistake either with the salt wife or with the lost battle. He also wants to be king because he thinks it is expected from him. That is the same explanation Stannis gives Davos. Stannis says he is king; therefore he must be king. In other words, he has no choice. Victarion is the iron captain. Stannis is also described as iron.



I like Baelor Blacktyde. Being brought up in Oldtown has obviously broadened his perspective. A truly wise king of the ironborn would send young people on study trips to different places in the Seven Kingdoms or would invite teachers to teach them something new.



Euron must have lots of secrets: Silence (his ship), a crew of mutes, the dusky woman without a tongue, a black iron maiden without a mouth on the prow of his ship ... and his arrival is heralded by silence:



But then a sudden silence fell. The singing died, Little Lenwood Tawney lowered his fiddle, men turned their heads. Even the clatter of plates and knives was hushed.



Euron is not simply a pirate, he also makes me think of the Jolly Roger of pirates, death itself.


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Shit, my replies are gone. I will just try to write major things that I can remember.



1. I don’t think Victarion’s relationship with Euron was ever good. Euron likes to torment people physically or verbally. Victarion was victim of his cruel and clever japes.


2. One evil act does not make a person evil, especially not in ASOIAF. Euron belongs to the disgustingly evil lot like Gregor, Ramsay, Tywin, Roose, etc. but Victarion cannot be included among them. I think he belongs to the much larger group of grey characters. He is as cruel and as battle thirsty as an average ironborn. Like every other person, he has his buttons and when somebody pushes them, he can go wild.


3. Killing his wife is an evil act. He had his reasons and complexes that drove him into it but there is always the choice and nothing can make this act any less evil.


4. Victarion genuinely likes Asha and he will be relieved to hear that she will escape from Euron’s grasp. Victarion adored Balon and he respects Aeron too (to a certain extent).


5. Euron might be suffering from multiple personality disorder. His smiling eye and his black eye shining with malice make me think of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Euron’s hides his black eye along with all of his sadistic urges and weaknesses behind his eye patch. It is like a switch to alternate between his personalities. But his control on hiding his insecurities is not as high as he thinks.


6. Victarion-Bittersteel comparison is a good one. I think Victarion’s dumbness is overrated. He is like Drogo with wooden horses. We will see that he will make good plans to navigate the Iron Fleet half the world away and then his plan to join the Battle of Fire is also excellent.


7. I wanted to make a dramatic entrance by concentrating on Victarion’s small penis syndrome but he has other weaknesses too. I think he cannot form healthy relations with women. He was not able to have his first sex by his own. Theon was like a god compared to him. Having a slow mind and growing with Euron made him grim. He is not able to show his emotions. This also drove him in developing a similar complex with Tywin, i.e. not abiding to be laughed at.


8. Euron vs. Darkstar is an interesting comparison. They are both poison but they look so attractive that some fools cannot resist trusting them.


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5. Euron might be suffering from multiple personality disorder. His smiling eye and his black eye shining with malice make me think of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Euron’s hides his black eye along with all of his sadistic urges and weaknesses behind his eye patch. It is like a switch to alternate between his personalities. But his control on hiding his insecurities is not as high as he thinks.

6. Victarion-Bittersteel comparison is a good one. I think Victarion’s dumbness is overrated. He is like Drogo with wooden horses. We will see that he will make good plans to navigate the Iron Fleet half the world away and then his plan to join the Battle of Fire is also excellent.

5. I don't think so. Euron just shows his crow's eye as a form of intimidation to show when he is angry.

6. Drogo never lost a battle while Victarion lost one. Drogo could also wear silks and perfumes when visiting Pentos, and be a cosmopolitan man. Drogo was willing to sail the sea for Dany, and I think Victarion will jounrey into the Dothraki Sea to find Dany.

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Shit, my replies are gone. I will just try to write major things that I can remember.

5. Euron might be suffering from multiple personality disorder. His smiling eye and his black eye shining with malice make me think of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Euron’s hides his black eye along with all of his sadistic urges and weaknesses behind his eye patch. It is like a switch to alternate between his personalities. But his control on hiding his insecurities is not as high as he thinks.

8. Euron vs. Darkstar is an interesting comparison. They are both poison but they look so attractive that some fools cannot resist trusting them.

I also had stuff typed out until yesterday's Great Sadness. Basic rehash of some points

5) I think Euron is "what you see is what you get" He is a PIRATE but without any of Hollywood's modern trappings where their pirate life is less bloodthirsty and more charming and knight-of-the-high-seas. Euron might be charming and good to look at, but there is no soft heart behind his breast. You're not going to hear him waxing nostalgic about freedom a la Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean and rescuing damsels because he knows it's the right thing to do. He's just a sick man.

8) Darkstar and Euron are also both incredibly arrogant. Darkstar, in AFFC, grumbles about how the only Danye people seem to know was Arthur, as if he--Darkstar--should rank at least equal to The Sword of the Morning. Euron more or less thinks he's god.

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I also had stuff typed out until yesterday's Great Sadness. Basic rehash of some points

5) I think Euron is "what you see is what you get" He is a PIRATE but without any of Hollywood's modern trappings where their pirate life is less bloodthirsty and more charming and knight-of-the-high-seas. Euron might be charming and good to look at, but there is no soft heart behind his breast. You're not going to hear him waxing nostalgic about freedom a la Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean and rescuing damsels because he knows it's the right thing to do. He's just a sick man.

He doesn't rescue damsels but rapes them instead, or rather makes them damsels in distress in the first place. You are right, he has the features of a pirate one would read about or see in a movie at first glance, but he murders, rapes and steals. He is a psychopath who is an asshole to most everyone including his own family. Basically, a more realistic picture of a pirate compared to what Hollywood usually portrays.

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I do not believe Victarion is "evil" either. I think it's mostly the way in which he killed his wife the one that is repulsive. I'm not saying he was "right" to kill her but beating her until she died it was a cruel thing to do, specially being pregnant.

I don't agree with the "dumb" description either, because it's too much of a broad description and doesn't apply to all of Victarion's angles. He's intellectually dumb, that I would give him, but he is a good Captain and he knows his work. The man who wakes up early every day, does his simple job well and return home to sleep and repeat the routine next day is dumb? I would call him "simple" rather than dumb. Victarion is a simple man who doesn't want, need or seeks for more than he is given, either because of some religious belief or because of the laws of being a younger brother. Also, he's overshadowed by his two older brothers, who are more charismatic and are more of a leader material than he is.

The comparison with Tywin I like, because we don't have his PoV and Victarion is, incredibly, the next best thing. Mostly of his actions are a result of not liking to be laughed at, and that was Tywin's main motivation after his father's actions. In a world when power is everything, and when you can be dead if you are thought to be weak, the fear of being considered such, or being mocked can make you commit terrible crimes. Tywin made his father's mistress walk around naked and ordered the rape of Tysha because of that, because he didn't want his House being dishonoured or mocked, or at least, that's what he likes to think. Victarion's pride is more personal, it's not about the pride of his House and family but his own, as a man whose wife was pregnant by his own brother because such brother was better "equipped". Victarion wanted to take the Tywin's approach and kill Euron but Balon wouldn't allow it. It's funny that the Greyjoys know discretion while Tywin doesn't.

About the "awkward erection", I found about that here, recently. I don't have that in my books, the whole thing is censored and edited. Why is that hidden? No idea. The rest is pretty much the same. :/


AFfC – Iron Captain (Victarion I)




1. Hard Times, Hard Places

2. Hard Men

He has a small penis.

I shouldn't have laughed at this but I did... I regret nothing :lol:

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JonCon's Red Beard, I agree with your analysis, well-put.



Toss Tywin, Kevan and Tygett into a pot and you get Victarion. It is a pity that he has no Gerion in him.



Greyjoys are a proud House too but the Lannister pride is a match for even the Targaryens.



Tywin was never overshadowed by anyone. His father was weak, he had no elder brother and all of his siblings looked up to him. Victarion’s father seems like a proto-Balon who died at the sea, reaving. Balon and Euron cast dark shadows over their brothers. This way, Tywin never felt any forces (strong father figure, strong elder brothers, religion etc.) restraining his actions while Victarion had to obey his father, Balon and Drowned God above else.


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Can someone please explain how we arrive at this conclusion:





All that long introduction was for this moment. Victarion have several weaknesses he has to hide from the others but the root of all his woes is simply this:



He has a small penis.




Is this just from some sort of Freudian analysis of Victarion or something?




Otherwise, very nice work. Enjoyable to read, especially the Aeron analysis


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Can someone please explain how we arrive at this conclusion:

Is this just from some sort of Freudian analysis of Victarion or something?

I thought it was insane at first too but the emboldened below I think heavily suggests it.

Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. “He put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He sent Euron into exile, never to return . . .”

“. . . so long as Balon lived?”

Victarion looked at his fists. “She gave me horns. I had no choice.” Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow’s Eye laughed when I confronted him. “She came to me wet and willing,” he had boasted. “It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters.” But he could not tell her that.

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A comment on Asha's plan for Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore explained in this chapter. It does seem like a decent idea, but now it is impossible after WF and Theon supposedly taking Rickon and Bran's heads. She proposes an alliance between the Northmen and the Ironborn against the IT; if this sounds familiar it is because it is exactly the kind of deal that Robb had proposed to Balon in the first place.



A little more an Euron



His hair was still black as a midnight sea, with never a whitecap to be seen . . . A black leather patch covered Euron's left eye, but his right was blue as a summer sky.



His hair is all black, not a hint of white, hinting at his black character with hardly anything white or good about him. Euron's eyes are also black and blue, like bruises, possibly symbolizing the pain he gives others.


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