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Victarion Re-read Project


Mithras

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<snip>

Yes, it has to be important. Moqorro didn’t even look like a red priest (his robes were more pink than red) and less so under the lack of light in the cabin. His robes should appear black to her at first sight. Later we will see that Victarion will give black robes to Moqorro hoping that this Greyjoy color would make him more appealing to the crew but Moqorro will look more sinister than ever, which btw is hilarious.

One possibility is that she saw through the glamor and was terrified by his real appearance. I don't think she can identify the flame tattoos and red robes so fast. Perhaps she was like Dafuq!?

<snip>

I think that for people from the urban parts of Essos, the slave tattoos are a dead giveaway.

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AFAIK, the only source to GRRM's assertion that Victarion is "dumb as a stump" is this SSM entry:



http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6494



Other people will probably be more able to cast judgement on the authenticity of these reports, but it strikes me as odd that it isn't signed. Perhaps we're taking at face value something invented by an anonymous fan who's biased against the character?


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Here is an interview where GRRM calls Victarion a dullard and a brute:




Are there any characters that you've kind of fallen out of love with, that you just don't, you know, get excited about any more?


I still love all the characters. Even some of them who aren't very lovable. At least the viewpoint characters. When I'm writing in the viewpoint of one of these characters, I'm really inside their skin. So, you trying to see the world through their eyes to understand why they do the things they do. And we all have, even characters who are thought of to be bad guys, who are bad guys, in some objective sense, don't think of themselves as bad guys.


That's a comic book kind of thing, where the Red Skull gets up in the morning [and asks] "What evil can I do today?" Real people don't think that way. We all think we're heroes, we all think we're good guys. We have our rationalizations when we do bad things. "Well, I had no choice," or "It's the best of several bad alternatives," or "No it was actually good because God told me so," or "I had to do it for my family." We all have rationalizations for why we do shitty things or selfish things or cruel things. So when I'm writing from the viewpoint of one of my characters who has done these things, I try to have that in my head.


And I do, so there's an empathy there that makes me love even people like Victarion Greyjoy, who is basically a dullard and a brute. But, he feels aggrieved and sees the world a certain way. And Jamie Lannister and Theon Greyjoy, they all have their own viewpoints. I love them all. Some I love more than others, I guess.




Brute he is but I don’t think we can call him a dullard with the available info. If we are talking about the possible betrayals of Moqorro and the Dusky Woman, they are not glaringly obvious, even to us the readers who know things that Vicky does not know.



Victarion is an obedient character. He does not have a glib tongue. He does not have the cunning to plot. All true. But these do not make him a dullard.



About the Dusky Woman;



Euron gave her to Victarion just after the kingsmoot (before taking the Shields) and at that time, Euron planned to go to SB himself. I posted that in detail for the Reaver reread chapter. I argued that Euron originally planned give Victarion one of the Shield Islands and make him a Lord. That was supposed to be the Euron’s poisoned gift because the Tyrells would eventually take those islands back, as the Reader suspected.



Therefore, Euron already had a way to have Victarion killed. He did not need spying or assassination from the Dusky Woman. Victarion is too predictable for him and I don’t think he needs a spy to observe what Victarion is secretly plotting (that sounds ridiculous).



I think the Dusky Woman is a false flag. Euron mocked Victarion with a mute woman (one who cannot talk about the inadequacies of Victarion) but he was blind to Euron’s mockery.


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Well, maybe i'm a bit off for not being a native anglophone, but "dullard" doesn't seem equal to "dumb as a stump", which is something akin to Dunk's "thick as a castle wall". Based on what we have, he's not more of a dullard than Jaime Lannister, whose one thing going for him that Vic doesn't have is that he's a charming, not socially inept dude (not to mention he's handsome). Whatever the case, i agree with your impressions on Vic's character traits. Anyway, Martin's public opinions about his character could be a little influenced by those from the fans, i suspect.



About the poisoning plot, there are 2 "schools" of thought, i observed:



1) Dumb Victarion trusts too much in the Dusky Woman knowing that she's another one of Euron's poisoned gifts.


2) Euron, with all his cunning, has let Victarion loose and he's too reliant on him not plotting betrayal.



Most of the time, they fail to recognize details like the timing of the Dusky Woman's gift. But more importantly, that they're in a power play where having each other figured out (as both of them seemingly think) doesn't preclude them from taking RISKS, like proven plotters in the series such as Varys and Baelish have.


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  • 10 months later...

this thread was awesome, its a shame it was never finished.

 


About the Dusky Woman;

 

Euron gave her to Victarion just after the kingsmoot (before taking the Shields) and at that time, Euron planned to go to SB himself. I posted that in detail for the Reaver reread chapter. I argued that Euron originally planned give Victarion one of the Shield Islands and make him a Lord. That was supposed to be the Euron’s poisoned gift because the Tyrells would eventually take those islands back, as the Reader suspected.

 

Therefore, Euron already had a way to have Victarion killed. He did not need spying or assassination from the Dusky Woman. Victarion is too predictable for him and I don’t think he needs a spy to observe what Victarion is secretly plotting (that sounds ridiculous).

 

I think the Dusky Woman is a false flag. Euron mocked Victarion with a mute woman (one who cannot talk about the inadequacies of Victarion) but he was blind to Euron’s mockery.

 

Victarion as Lord plan is interesting, but the new Lords of the shield islands were announced before the Reader thwarted Euron´s plan of taking the ironborn to SB..

 

unless he changed his plan regarding Vic, before taking the Shield Islands, Victarion was always meant to go to SB.

 

in fact, in sample chapters of ADWD, quaithe warned daanerys of both, "Crow and Kraken" (instead of morroqo and victarion)..

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this thread was awesome, its a shame it was never finished.

 

Hey, I am not finished. I am savoring the last bite :P

 

Seriously, it would be great to analyze the last chapter after we get a publication date for TWoW. Fingers could be crossed and the final predictions could be made until we dive deep into the Winds.

 

 

Victarion as Lord plan is interesting, but the new Lords of the shield islands were announced before the Reader thwarted Euron´s plan of taking the ironborn to SB..

 

unless he changed his plan regarding Vic, before taking the Shield Islands, Victarion was always meant to go to SB.

 

in fact, in sample chapters of ADWD, quaithe warned daanerys of both, "Crow and Kraken" (instead of morroqo and victarion)..

 

You are right. Perhaps Victarion was always the blood sacrifice Euron intended to make to claim the horn.

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Hey, I am not finished. I am savoring the last bite :P

 

Seriously, it would be great to analyze the last chapter after we get a publication date for TWoW. Fingers could be crossed and the final predictions could be made until we dive deep into the Winds.

 

 
 

 

You are right. Perhaps Victarion was always the blood sacrifice Euron intended to make to claim the horn.

 

 

Truth.

 

regarding the dusky woman, Victarion as captain of the iron fleet is still a dangerous enemy that should be taken care of.

 

I don´t think Euron would gamble such risk, just by using reverse psycology to have Victarion blow the horn himself.

If that failed, and Victarion managed to reach SB, and take the targaryen queen, he would become an even more dangerous foe.

 

timming his death, after the Iron Fleet manages to take Daenerys makes the most sense to me.. a slow poison so that Victarion dies on his way back is the best possible solution.

his second in command, wouldn´t dare use Daeneyrs against Euron.. better return home, deliver her to king Euron and enjoy the reward. Most of the ironborn want to return home as it is. Without Victarion they would.

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