Victarion Re-read Project

[Mithras]

The two quotes, when put together like this, suggest that the corpse pickled in brine must have been a sorcerer as well if it's being used for magic. Or perhaps, a fellow Red Priest? Wanna bet that if it's the latter, he offered himself up willingly "for the cause" as it were? Makes me wonder if another Red Priest(ess) won't offer up herself in sacrifice for something.

That corpse might belong to a red priest with some gift in magic. The Red Temple likes to have such people with natural gift for magic. I am more inclined to think that the corpse was used as a ward. Moqorro ordered the captain a dangerous route which was too close to Valyria, yet their swing around Valyria was relatively safe. They only suffered the first storm and it was not directed at them (or the ward protected them from the worst). After they swung around Valyria, the ward might have been dropped.

I don't have a whole lot to add because you covered this so well, but it does raise the question of just how powerful these Red Priests in Essos are. Mel has certain gifts but she also uses a lot of trickery to get men to believe in her because in the end, she figures it will be worth it. But Benerro seems to be on a whole different playing field when it comes to power, if indeed your theory is right that he's causing these storms.

It is implied that Mel was sold to a Red Temple as a temple prostitute. Bennero is the chosen of Rhlorr. I think his potential is far greater than Mel; although it should be noted that the gift in Mel is quite strong according to the S+B=M theory which I buy as a whole. Their visions proved to be quite accurate. Most of those visions were from the present, so I don’t think they needed much interpretation. But they also have some visions from the future interpreted with great accuracy.

Doom

“Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men.”

Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R’hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

We have a lot of reasons to suspect that both Mel and Moqorro are fire wights. She refers to herself as something above the mortals. I think such people can look at Valyria (through their fires or glass candles) and use the available magical potential there.

We also know that some places are magically more active than others and certain kinds of magic are stronger in some places. For example Thoros was not able to see visions near the High Heart because the Old Gods were strong there and they hated the fire brought by the Andals.

Therefore, I assume that some of the magic from the Doom still lingers in Valyria. It can be used as a great magical potential and it should be increasing with the general increase of magic in the world. As we will see from the next Victarion chapter, foul winds are reported as being directly related to Valyria. That magic should be related to fire and great storms, which were reported in the tales about the Doom.

We will also see another remnant of the magic that hit the Doom. Victarion will have dark dreams when he sleeps at the shore of those island struck by the massive waves due to the Doom.

[Loic]

This is a BRILLIANT reread, I'm deeply enjoying it... bravo to all the contributors.

A little point I'd like to make about the Kingsmoot/Race for the Throne comparison, since it's the only thing I'd slightly change.
I read:

Gilbert Farwynd = Stannis

Erik Ironmaker = Robert

Asha = Dany

Victarion = fAegon

Euron = Jon

House Drumm = House Hightower

House Harlaw = House Lannister

I think it makes sense, but not perfectly.

Balon's a corpse since a few days and I can see why Renly or Robb would be amiss due to their early deaths, but putting Robert in and leave Joff aside seems strange.

Especially given that Robert isn't an actual pretender to the throne but the actual king - who died before Stannis could even think to press his claim.

What if we include Aerys into the equation?

His eyes, Aeron saw, were now grey, now blue, as changeable as the seas. Mad eyes, he thought, fool's eyes.

Both he and Gilbert Farwynd have mad-like eyes and he doesn't seem to be that popular. What he offers makes no sense.

This change would leave Stannis out, but also make more sense on a logical and chronological level.

Gilbert Farwynd = Aerys

Erik Ironmaker = Robert

Victarion = fAegon

Asha = Dany

Euron = Jon

Notice that in this way the list would actually display people who actually sit their ass on the Iron Throne at some point or another.

This list also sets aside all the pretenders of the war of the five kings, as if telling us that it was pretty much meaningless: Robb, Renly, Balon and Stannis do not place themselves on the throne, and Joffrey was king only by name, since he neither owned the throne by blood right or conquest, nor he did excersise his power in any significant way.

caveat: I'm assuming that Stannis will die before actually getting the throne since it seems very likely, and a second assumption is that fAegon, Dany and Jon will actually become regents. For confirmation we'll need new books :P

[horizon]

As for the Red Priests calling for the storms to happen, does that make the Storm God a servant / other personification of R'hollr?

Just as Moqorro says to Victarion that the Drowned God is a servant of the Great Other.

And with Euron being in league with the Storm God as well... and Victarion swaying that direction as well. Rhollr is taking over the Ironborn through the Storm God..?

[Julia H.]

Horizon, these are my thoughts, too. Paper Waver's analysis made me think that R'hllor might be the Storm God. It would make sense if the chief antagonist of the Drowned God were a form of the Fire God. Lightning is both fire and storm.

[Mithras]

There is a popular lore about the curse of the pharaohs. It is allegedly reported that mummies caused stormy seas and the sailors had to thrown them overboard to avoid shipwrecks. Perhaps these were the inspirations for George.

In 1699, Louis Penicher wrote an account in which he recorded how a Polish traveler bought two mummies in Alexandria and embarked on a sea journey with the mummies in the cargo hold. The traveler was alarmed by recurring visions of two specters, and the stormy seas that did not abate until the mummies were thrown overboard.

More later.

[Mithras]

This is a BRILLIANT reread, I'm deeply enjoying it... bravo to all the contributors.

Thanks :cheers:

What if we include Aerys into the equation?

Both he and Gilbert Farwynd have mad-like eyes and he doesn't seem to be that popular. What he offers makes no sense.

This change would leave Stannis out, but also make more sense on a logical and chronological level.

Notice that in this way the list would actually display people who actually sit their ass on the Iron Throne at some point or another.

This list also sets aside all the pretenders of the war of the five kings, as if telling us that it was pretty much meaningless: Robb, Renly, Balon and Stannis do not place themselves on the throne, and Joffrey was king only by name, since he neither owned the throne by blood right or conquest, nor he did excersise his power in any significant way.

caveat: I'm assuming that Stannis will die before actually getting the throne since it seems very likely, and a second assumption is that fAegon, Dany and Jon will actually become regents. For confirmation we'll need new books :P

I don't think Dany or fAegon will ever sit the IT. There are really nice clues pointing that Cersei will burn the KL with wildfire just like Aerys wanted. We also know that she has to lose everything including her remaning children before Jaime strangles her. So, even if Cersei perishes quickly in TWoW, the KL will be burned and no pretender will ever sit the IT.

TV show made this point clearer by showing that Dany will find the KL burned down. Bran also saw the same thing too, perhaps because he will use a Hammer fo Waters to put out the fire.

I also want to say that the famous "several asses will sit on the IT before the series ends" SSM is generally misinterpreted by the fans. George said that in a panel dedicated to the TV show and Joffrey was still alive in the show at that time. So, George's list includes Tommen, Myrcella and their hands.

As for the Red Priests calling for the storms to happen, does that make the Storm God a servant / other personification of R'hollr?

Just as Moqorro says to Victarion that the Drowned God is a servant of the Great Other.

And with Euron being in league with the Storm God as well... and Victarion swaying that direction as well. Rhollr is taking over the Ironborn through the Storm God..?

Horizon, these are my thoughts, too. Paper Waver's analysis made me think that R'hllor might be the Storm God. It would make sense if the chief antagonist of the Drowned God were a form of the Fire God. Lightning is both fire and storm.

We have seen that there are a lot of different magic schools other than Fire and Blood. Schools of magic might be universal but different cultures might attribute different deities to these schools and those deities (which depend on native culture) might be related to several schools of magic.

I think air magic is a universal school of magic and different cultures can use it at different levels. There are dedicated aeromancers, which are probably the purest air magic users. I think Rhlorrists also use some air magic as we see from Mel, and Benerro according to my proposal. It is possible that Balon was killed by air magic instead of the favourite FM theory and in that case the warlocks of Qarth (which were powerful enough to defeat Valyrians) summoned that wind which killed Balon.

[BearQueen87]

As for the Red Priests calling for the storms to happen, does that make the Storm God a servant / other personification of R'hollr?

Just as Moqorro says to Victarion that the Drowned God is a servant of the Great Other.

And with Euron being in league with the Storm God as well... and Victarion swaying that direction as well. Rhollr is taking over the Ironborn through the Storm God..?

Interesting. I'm not sure if GRRM believes gods exist in-universe but rather a general "magic" that permeates the world. People can tap into that magical power and then they attribute it the god of their choosing. For instance, I don't know if Moqorro would say, "yes I caused this storm with the help of Storm God" because that flies in the face of his Red God leanings and that the Red God is the only true god. But what I think he would say is that he, through the power of the Red God, created the storm.

[Loic]

I don't think Dany or fAegon will ever sit the IT. There are really nice clues pointing that Cersei will burn the KL with wildfire just like Aerys wanted. We also know that she has to lose everything including her remaning children before Jaime strangles her. So, even if Cersei perishes quickly in TWoW, the KL will be burned and no pretender will ever sit the IT.

TV show made this point clearer by showing that Dany will find the KL burned down. Bran also saw the same thing too, perhaps because he will use a Hammer fo Waters to put out the fire.

I also want to say that the famous "several asses will sit on the IT before the series ends" SSM is generally misinterpreted by the fans. George said that in a panel dedicated to the TV show and Joffrey was still alive in the show at that time. So, George's list includes Tommen, Myrcella and their hands.

KL was sacked during Robert's rebellion and still someone sit on the Throne, I don't see why burning a city doesn't let you to be a king. Plus, the last burning of KL didn't actually happen, since it was avoided... by Jaime Lannister.

I don't consider the TV show as reliable, plus dragons can burn cities as well.

I think the difference in opinions comes from the fact that you believe Cersei will outlive fAegon, am I right?

TWoW possible spoilers:

If Myrcella is actually coming back to KL like the Dornish chapters may suggest and a certain trial is about to happen, we have the chance for a really quick crowning and killing of both the remaining sons. After that it's pretty easy for Cersei to snap it out definitely. In the meantime Jaime has all the time to come back to KL, all of this while fAegon is busy with Arianne. Iirc ADwD ends with Storm's end still in loyal hands, we don't have a way to determine a timeline yet, I think.

Sadly there's nothing really constructive and much speculation. Gotta wait TWoW, I guess...

Back on the reread and the Kingsmoot: if fAegon or Dany don't sit on the throne, my whole comparison doesn't really stand since they won't be all regents. And mind, I'm not ignoring Joffrey,Tommen or Myrcella but excluding them since they aren't regents nor by bloodright, nor by right of conquest.

If instead the correct one is the other interpretation, I don't get why GRRM would put in some pretenders, exclude others due to their deaths but then include the old dead Robert, or why should he put Stannis before him since it makes no sense.

It's undeniable that the text seems to suggest something, but I wonder if I'm making it more complicate than it already is.

...you caught the SSM reference! :cheers:

[Fjordgazer]

That is an interesting idea but I don't think Victarion has autism. He is becoming more Euron everyday

But your ideas and the "autism" thing don't really clash at all. What makes many think Victarion has some sort of mild autism (similar musings have been made about Stannis) is his misunderstanding of people's words and intentions, his lack of social awareness, etc. He can be an "aspie" and still become Euron, as you put it. It's about social mingling, not morals.

Anyway, i'll wait for your take on Vic's ADWD chapters so i have the full picture of what you're trying to say :cheers:

[Mithras]

ADwD – The Iron Suitor (Victarion I)

Plot Summary

Only the 54 of the 99 ships that have set sail from the Stepstones reaches the Isle of Cedars for the time being. The wound at Victarion’s left hand (his shield hand) is suspiciously festering. The last ship to arrive (Grief that always accompanies Victarion) has fished Moqorro from the sea. He heals Victarion’s hand. Kraken and Dark Flame.

Observations

1. Vicky hates monkeys. He also hates being the subject of a joke and being laughed at.

2. Euron gave Victarion ravens to send to him regularly. Victarion forbade the maester to send anything to Euron.

3. Victarion slapped Ralf the Limper twice and explained the reason of each slap. He is a just man.

4. Victarion decided to divide his ships into three squadrons according to their speeds. The swiftest ships were supposed to take the most dangerous path known as the corsair road. There, they are supposed to take their provisions by paying the iron price. The slowest ships with large cargo went to Lys and sold the slaves captured at the Shields for a large capacity provisions. Later they drew a larger swing around Valyria to avoid any possible clash with faster enemy ships. Victarion’s own squadron took the most common and crowded route with a pitstop at Volantis.

5. This was a clever strategy because a single large group can be scattered or destroyed by a single storm; no one wants so many warships nearby, so buying enough provisions might be hard; the fastest ships were going to be constrained by the slowest ships whereas time is of essence.

6. Victarion decided to leave behind the most damaged ship at the Isle of Cedars to wait for and inform other possible stragglers about the destination of Victarion.

7. I shamelessly admit laughing at this hard:

Like as not, the girl [Dany] would prove to be some pock-faced slattern with teats slapping against her knees, her “dragons” no more than tattooed lizards from the swamps of Sothoryos.

8. Victarion is openly defying Euron. He is far removed from any influence from Euron or Aeron or even Balon. This is perhaps the first time he is free and it is interesting to see what he will do with his newly gained freedom. Just like being separated from Cersei did well to Jaime and being separated from Randyll was good for Sam, I think being separated from home and crazy brothers is going well for Victarion.

Analysis

Storms Continued

He [Victarion] did not like these storms, which seemed to come up out of nowhere. The seas around Pyke were often stormy, but there at least a man could smell them coming. These southron storms were as treacherous as women.

“Storms,” Ralf the Limper had muttered when he came crawling to Victarion. “Three big storms, and foul winds between. Red winds out of Valyria that smelled of ash and brimstone, and black winds that drove us toward that blighted shore. This voyage was cursed from the first. The Crow’s Eye fears you, my lord, why else send you so far away? He does not mean for us to return.”

Victarion had thought the same when he met the first storm a day out of Old Volantis. The gods hate kinslayers, he brooded, elsewise Euron Crow’s Eye would have died a dozen deaths by my hand. As the sea crashed around him and the deck rose and fell beneath his feet, he had seen Dagon’s Feast and Red Tide slammed together so violently that both exploded into splinters. My brother’s work, he’d thought. Those were the first two ships he’d lost from his own third of the fleet. But not the last.

The storms would have scattered and delayed the Volantenes, even as they had his own ships. If fortune smiled, many of their warships might have sunk or run aground. But not all. No god was that good, and those green galleys that survived by now could well have sailed around Valyria.

Strange storms seemingly coming out of nowhere according an experienced sailor; foul smelling winds coming out of and going to Valyria; the mighty Volantene Fleet possibly hit by massive storms…

I think the Volantene Fleet should be a major concern for Benerro and he should have done something to avert that great danger to Dany, like he did with Victarion and the dragonhorn. Therefore, I think it is a good possibility that he summoned those storms to hit the Volantene Fleet. Perhaps he also preached the slave soldiers about the wroth of the Red God; and the storms that hit them will be the “proof” of his preaching.

Victarion is Changing

Victarion’s reasoning works well enough although he was dubbed as a dumb by George rather unfairly. He starts to nurse doubts about his faith and for good reason.

“Fifty-four,” he grumbled. It would have been too much to hope for the full strength of the Iron Fleet after a voyage of such length … but seventy ships, even eighty, the Drowned God might have granted him that much. Would that we had the Damphair with us, or some other priest. Victarion had made sacrifice before setting sail, and again in the Stepstones when he split the fleet in three, but perhaps he had said the wrong prayers. That, or the Drowned God has no power here. More and more, he had come to fear that they had sailed too far, into strange seas where even the gods were queer …

It may be possible that Victarion did not do the right rituals to make use of those sacrifices because he is not a priest. There is also my suggestion that another power (Benerro) has been calling those storms and Victarion did not have the spells to protect his ships from him.

Victarion might be right about that last point as well. Thoros of Myr was not able to see visions in the fire when he was in High Heart because the GHH said the Old Gods were strong there and he should seek his fire visions elsewhere. The waters around Valyria might still carry the remnants of a strong magic.

So many drowned men, the Drowned God will be strong there, Victarion had thought when he chose the island for the three parts of his fleet to join up again. He was no priest, though. What if he had gotten it backwards? Perhaps the Drowned God had destroyed the island in his wroth.

Exactly.

No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair. Yet the captains and kings had cried for Euron at the kingsmoot, choosing him above Victarion and other godly men.

Victarion does not buy the feeble excuses of Aeron which he told him in the previous chapter.

This chapter shows this dilemma of Victarion. At one hand, he needs to take counsel from a priest (Aeron) as he is used to. On the other hand, he starts to nurse doubts about Aeron or even the Drowned Religion as a whole. They are in the middle of an alien sea and he has a thought that Drowned God might not have power there. Is not this a blasphemy according to Aeron? Aren’t all the seas supposed to be the domain of the Drowned God?

Moqorro will fill this void in Victarion and in addition to that, Victarion will favor him as a rival to the warlocks of Euron from the moment he proves his worth as a healer and a seer.

This is an important point because we see a confidence in Victarion that he thinks he can rival Euron in everything. Victarion starts to think that if Euron can do this, so he can; if Euron can do that, so he can and so on.

Victarion and the Dusky Woman

… but such doubts he confided only to his dusky woman, who had no tongue to repeat them.

The dusky woman knew what he wanted without his even asking.

The dusky woman made no reply. Euron had sliced her tongue out before giving her to him. Victarion did not doubt that the Crow’s Eye had bedded her as well. That was his brother’s way. Euron’s gifts are poisoned, the captain had reminded himself the day the dusky woman came aboard. I want none of his leavings. He had decided then that he would slit her throat and toss her in the sea, a blood sacrifice to the Drowned God. Somehow, though, he had never quite gotten around to it.

They had come a long way since. Victarion could talk to the dusky woman. She never attempted to talk back.

We see that their relationship had come long way since. Victarion confidently talks to her about his plans, his doubts, and his secrets. She understands what he wants without even talking. She smiles to him, takes care of his wound. I bet she is doing far better than her time with Euron.

Victarion vs. JonCon

Even with such a badly festered wound, Victarion did not think that he was going to die, not even once. His mind was on his mission only. The reason for his hurry was the incoming Volantene Fleet.

And I must needs reach the dragon queen before the Volantenes.

Compare him to JonCon after catching greyscale. He was restless; he kept thinking that he did not have time for caution etc. Greyscale is a deadly disease but Victarion should have participated in enough fights to know that his wound would kill him soon. Jorah understood the situation with one look at Drogo’s wound. Perhaps being a strong warrior made Victarion underestimate his wounds. We observed the same attitude in Drogo when he got that wound which would later fester and kill him.

One of the reasons he kept his wound secret or underestimated it is that he could not abide showing his men that their captain was growing weak and dying; not in the middle of the other side of the world. A khal who cannot ride is no khal at all. Similarly, the condition of Victarion’s wound would put his authority into question if the men knew that. JonCon is no different. If it was known that he had greyscale, he would be banished and he could not get his revenge.

Victarion’s Hand

Now we come to the trickiest part of this chapter. Was Victarion’s hand poisoned?

A poisoning theory should explain

1. The motive for killing Victarion: the agent should have a legitimate motive for killing Victarion.

2. Timing of Victarion’s death: the agent should have a legitimate reason to kill Victarion at the precise time he was going to die had Moqorro not appeared. We should note that the trip from the Shields to the Isle of Cedars took at least a month and maybe a half too. In comparison, Drogo was wasted within a week or so and Jaime’s untreated hand (or its lack) started to be lethal in Harrenhal after a week or so from the mutilation.

3. The means and opportunity to poison Victarion: The agent should find whichever poison used and also have a chance to apply it to Victarion.

4. The plan for the afterwards of Victarion’s death: The agent should have a plan after the death of Victarion. This is partially related to the motive of killing him as well.

I cannot give a definite answer but since the poisoning is not confirmed decisively in the text, Occam’s razor dictates that the infection was natural. So let us start with that case.

Case 1: No Poisoner

Item 1

In this case, there is obviously no motive for killing Victarion. So, this item is explained perfectly.

Item 2

The second item has the best explanation as well. After the battle, he had sex with the dusky woman and his wounded hand has been all over the private parts of the dusky woman, where it teems with bacteria. Worse, no maester treated Victarion’s wound.

I have googled the factors effecting wound healing and found some interesting stuff like this or this.

Alcohol slows wound healing by creating a imbalance in hydration levels of the skin. Alcohol is a drying agent and forces water and other fluids away from the skin. Thus, it slows wound healing.

The wine had dulled the throbbing in his hand. Perhaps he would have Hewett’s maester look at it, if the man had not been killed.

Victarion rose unsteadily. He was a big man, with a large capacity for wine, but even so, he had drunk too much.

Victarion was drinking heavily.

Studies in both humans and animals have demonstrated that psychological stress causes a substantial delay in wound healing.

The pathophysiology of stress results in the deregulation of the immune system,

Victarion is constantly brooding on Euron and he has a real hard job (i.e. to take the Iron Fleet to the other side of the world). And he is especially not a relaxing type given his reluctance to jape and laugh. I think we can safely say that he is under a lot of stress and that weakens the immune system.

Victarion’s hands coiled into fists, and a drop of blood fell to patter on the floor.

When Victarion opened his hand, his palm was red with blood.

This shows that Victarion was doing things he should not have done with a wounded hand.

Victarion remembered the fight as if it had been yesterday. His shield had been in shards, hanging useless from his arm, so when Serry’s longsword came flashing down he had reached up and caught it. The stripling had been stronger than he looked; his blade bit through the lobstered steel of the captain’s gauntlet and the padded glove beneath into the meat of his palm. A scratch from a little kitten, Victarion told himself afterward. He had washed the cut, poured some boiled vinegar over it, bound it up, and thought little more of it, trusting that the pain would fade and the hand heal itself in time.

Well, I recently recovered from a small surgery and you should never forget that you have a wound to heal.

I think these points make a good case that Victarion did not pay attention to his wound; drank heavy; was under a lot of stress. So, he increased the risk of infection and at the same time weakened his immune system. That is why the wound healed slowly and infection settled at some point.

This is the most reasonable explanation about the 1.5 month of not healing and the slowly progressing infection. If we compare him to Drogo, we see that poisoned Drogo dropped unconscious after a week. Jaime suffered a far worse condition and his hand was not treated after the mutilation. When he came to Harrenhal after a week, he fainted from infection for the first time. Qyburn removed the rotted flesh, gave him a lot of herbs, and drained his bad blood with leeches. Kerwin did none of these (perhaps he did not have enough supplies).

Item 3

In this case, there is no poisoning. So, this item is explained perfectly.

Item 4

In this case, there is no poisoning. So, this item is explained perfectly.

Case 2: The Poisoner is the Dusky Woman

Item 1

Her motive to kill Victarion is not clear at all. A common assumption that she is under the command of Euron and he ordered her to kill Victarion if he goes rogue. We also speculated that the bastard boy of Euron might be her child and Euron might have threatened her with the boy’s life. However, these are all assumptions. When we come to Kerwin, we see that he had far more obvious motives in killing Victarion.

Item 2

This item is generally not easily explained for any poisoning theory because of the fact that it took a lot of time to reach the Isle of Cedars and Victarion was not even close to dying from infection. We can assume that Victarion’s wound was healing slowly and at some point, the dusky woman poisoned him with a relatively slow acting poison.

Item 3

The Dusky Woman definitely had the opportunity to poison Victarion because she is the one who treated his wound after the battle. However, we should note that after they got on the way, Kerwin probably started to tend to Victarion’s wound and the dusky woman only wrapped his wound if she was allowed.

How the dusky woman found the unknown poison which caused infection is also a big unknown.

Item 4

Assuming that Moqorro did not come and Victarion died on the way to Meereen, what was the dusky woman planning to do? Wulf One-ear or another brute would take the command.

“The fleet departs upon the morrow, on the evening tide.”

“As you command,” said Wulfe, “but another day might mean another ship, lord Captain.”

“Aye. And ten days might mean ten ships, or none at all. We have squandered too many days waiting on the sight of sails. Our victory will be that much the sweeter if we win it with a smaller fleet.”

“Aye, Captain,” said Wulfe One-Ear. He was not half the man that Nute the Barber was, but the Crow’s Eye had stolen Nute. By raising him to Lord of Oakenshield, his brother made Victarion’s best man his own. “Is it still to be Meereen?”

“Where else? The dragon queen awaits me in Meereen.”

The crew nursed doubts about their destination because it was still a long way to Meereen and with so many ships missing; they feared that they couldn’t crush the siege. Besides, they all knew the incoming Volantene Fleet. They also longed for home.

Therefore, the Dusky Woman would have no saying following Victarion’s death and the next Captain would probably abort the mission. In that case, the horn would never be blown. This does not make sense.

We should also note that the next brute to take the command would probably use the Dusky Woman much worse than Victarion. Why would she risk the relative comfort of being with Victarion?

Textual Clues

Euron’s gifts are poisoned,

Poison was for cravens, women, and Dornishmen.

As he opened the door to the captain’s cabin, the dusky woman turned toward him, silent and smiling … but when she saw the red priest at his side her lips drew back from her teeth, and she hisssssed in sudden fury, like a snake. Victarion gave her the back of his good hand and knocked her to the deck.

These are the textual clues that can be used to argue that the Dusky Woman was the poisoner.

At first, this looks like a done deal and the dusky woman is the primary suspect of most of the readers.

However, these clues do not necessarily dictate that she is the poisoner. There may be other explanations and these clues might be false flags.

First of all, we already saw a poisoned gift of Euron (dragonhorn) and to have it worked, Victarion should reach Meereen successfully. Killing him on the way does not sound like a good plan. I have no doubt that Euron expects betrayal from Victarion. However, his plan depended on his betrayal. Victarion intended to blow the horn himself until Moqorro arrived because he did not believe in Euron’s words. We will see that in the next chapter. Therefore, even if the dusky woman was ordered to spy on Victarion and do something, her orders should not include killing him prematurely. It can also be said that the dusky woman is not a spy but just a mockery to Victarion because she cannot talk about the size of Victarion’s kraken. So, the “poison” in the gift of the dusky woman might be that hidden mockery which Victarion did not even realize yet. Since he became fond of the dusky woman, I don’t think he will ever think the dusky woman as a mockery of Euron either.

Second, we already saw the case where poison was for women (Lysa). It is also highly possible that we saw the case where poison was for Dornishmen (the poison on his spear is confirmed by Qyburn and there is this Oberyn Poisoned Tywin theory). The only one that remains is the craven and I don’t think the Dusky Woman can be counted as the craven.

Third, what can be said about her strange reaction to Moqorro?

The wizard was a monster of a man, as tall as Victarion himself and twice as wide, with a belly like a boulder and a tangle of bone-white hair that grew about his face like a lion’s mane. His skin was black. Not the nut brown of the Summer Islanders on their swan ships, nor the red-brown of the Dothraki horselords, nor the charcoal-and-earth color of the Dusky Woman’s skin, but black. Blacker than coal, blacker than jet, blacker than a raven’s wing. Burned, Victarion thought, like a man who has been roasted in the flames until his flesh chars and crisps and falls smoking from his bones. The fires that had charred him still danced across his cheeks and forehead, where his eyes peered out from amongst a mask of frozen flames. Slave tattoos, the captain knew. Marks of evil.

“A demon priest,” said Wulfe One-Ear. He spat.

“Send him down to the Drowned God before he brings a curse upon us,” urged Burton Humble.

“A ship gone down, and only him clinging to the wreckage,” said Wulfe One-Ear. “Where’s the crew? Did he call down demons to devour them? What happened to this ship?”

She is not the only one to get creeps from the demon priest.

Moqorro is indeed not the person you would want to see suddenly and unexpectedly. He is as tall as Victarion and at least as twice large. His skin is pitch black. The impression he creates on the other people is aggression/fear/suspicion. There is also a very good possibility that Moqorro wears a glamor to hide his true appearance just like Mel because Victarion will see that the flame tattoes on his face will dance sometimes. Moreover, he is most probably a fire wight like Mel too, given that he presumably stayed 10 days in the water. So perhaps the Dusky Woman saw the true appearance of Moqorro (a burned corpse most probably). That can explain her freaking out just as well.

“Your death is with us now, my lord.”

The death of Victarion can be anyone/anything. Since Moqorro healed Victarion’s hand, the Dusky Woman cannot be Victarion’s death, at least not this time. The careful examination of that sentence reveals that the death of Victarion does not necessarily have anything to do with the poisoned hand.

I think Moqorro and the dragonhorn are two more likely candidates to be Victarion’s death than the Dusky Woman.

Case 3: The Poisoner is Maester Kerwin

Item 1

His motive to kill Victarion is far more believable than the Dusky Woman.

The girlish maester Euron had inflicted upon him back in Westeros claimed this place had once been called ‘the Isle of a Hundred Battles,’ but the men who had fought those battles had all gone to dust centuries ago.

He might have said more, but that was when the maester came, rapping at the cabin door as timid as a mouse. “Enter,” Victarion called out, “and bar the door. You know why you are here.”

“Lord Captain.” The maester looked like a mouse as well, with his grey robes and little brown mustachio. Does he think that makes him look more manly? Kerwin was his name. He was very young, two-and-twenty maybe. “May I see your hand?” he asked.

A fool’s question. Maesters had their uses, but Victarion had nothing but contempt for this Kerwin. With his smooth pink cheeks, soft hands, and brown curls, he looked more girlish than most girls. When first he came aboard the Iron Victory, he had a smirky little smile too, but one night off the Stepstones he had smiled at the wrong man, and Burton Humble had knocked out four of his teeth. Not long after that Kerwin had come creeping to the captain to complain that four of the crew had dragged him belowdecks and used him as a woman. “Here is how you put an end to that,” Victarion had told him, slamming a dagger down on the table between them. Kerwin took the blade—too afraid to refuse it, the captain judged—but he had never used it.

Victarion repeatedly reflected on how he hated the girlish, effeminate maester. Kerwin was too afraid to use the dagger against the crew that raped him but that is not the only time he used a dagger.

The boy—it was hard to think of one so soft and pink as a man—laid the edge of the dagger across the captain’s palm and slashed. The pus that burst forth was thick and yellow as sour milk. The Dusky Woman wrinkled her nose at the smell, the maester gagged, and even Victarion himself felt his stomach churn. “Cut deeper. Get it all. Show me the blood.”

Maester Kerwin pressed the dagger deep. This time it hurt, but blood welled up as well as pus, blood so dark that it looked black in the lantern light.

Blood was good. Victarion grunted in approval. He sat there unflinching as the maester dabbed and squeezed and cleaned the pus away with squares of soft cloth boiled in vinegar.

Kerwin was probably gay and Victarion remembered how he smiled at the wrong man and that brute knocked 4 of his teeth. The important thing is that he smiled at that man and I think he was looking for a strong man to protect him from being a buttboy. After he missed his chance, he has been being used as a buttboy just like he dreaded. He went to Victarion to stop this but Victarion despised him for his own reasons (what Kerwin expected was so out-of-ironborn that perhaps none of the ironborn would ever protect him like he wanted) and gave him a dagger to defend himself. I think this might be Kerwin’s suicidal killing of Victarion, similar to MMD and Drogo.

Item 2

This item is generally not easily explained for any poisoning theory because of the fact that it took a lot of time to reach the Isle of Cedars and Victarion was not even close to dying from infection. We can assume that Victarion’s wound was healing slowly and after Victarion ignored his plea for protection, Kerwin started to poison him. In this case, the poison acts faster than in the case of the Dusky Woman. And he did not care about the timing of Victarion’s death which makes the explanation for this item better than the Dusky Woman case.

Item 3

Kerwin definitely had the opportunity to poison Victarion because he cut his wound clean with a dagger and it is easy to poison a dagger. As a maester, he should have knowledge of making the dagger smeared with infecting bacteria.

Item 4

He did not care about who would succeed Victarion or where would they go after his death. He just hated Victarion for not helping him and wanted him gone. Perhaps the next Captain could have more respect for him. This is a better explanation than the Dusky Woman case.

Textual Clues

Euron’s gifts are poisoned,

Poison was for cravens, women, and Dornishmen.

As he opened the door to the captain’s cabin, the dusky woman turned toward him, silent and smiling … but when she saw the red priest at his side her lips drew back from her teeth, and she hisssssed in sudden fury, like a snake. Victarion gave her the back of his good hand and knocked her to the deck.

“I begged Lord Arryn to use a taster, in this very room I begged him, but he would not hear of it. Only one who was less than a man would even think of such a thing, he told me.”

Kerwin is one of Euron’s gifts too.

Since we saw cases in which poison was for women and Dornishmen, in this case a craven might be the poisoner to avoid repetition. Kerwin fits the craven criteria perfectly. He also fits another poisoning victim’s description since Victarion sees the maester less than a man.

“If not Serry, who?” he asked the Dusky Woman. “Could that mouse of a maester be doing this? Maesters know spells and other tricks. He might be using one to poison me, hoping I will let him cut my hand off.” The more he thought on it, the more likely it seemed. “The Crow’s Eye gave him to me, wretched creature that he is.” Euron had taken Kerwin off Greenshield, where he had been in service to Lord Chester, tending his ravens and teaching his children, or perhaps the other away around. And how the mouse had squealed when one of Euron’s mutes delivered him aboard the Iron Victory, dragging him along by the convenient chain about his neck. “If this is his revenge, he wrongs me. It was Euron who insisted he be taken, to keep him from making mischief with his birds.” His brother had given him three cages of ravens too, so Kerwin could send back word of their voyaging, but Victarion had forbidden him to loose them.

As we talked above, Victarion has examples of good reasoning in this chapter. This might be one of them as well. But I don’t think he assessed the motive of the maester correctly.

As a side note, Kerwin was serving House Chester at Greenshield and in the Shields, House Chester is the only one to show the Green Hand of the Gardeners on their Coat of arms.

Conclusion

I favor the no poisoning theory for simplicity and prefer Kerwin over the Dusky Woman as the possible poisoner. But I know that things can go in every direction as George wills.

The Dark Eye

The remnants of a banner drooped from her stern, smoke-stained and ragged. The charge was one Sam had never seen before: a red eye with a black pupil, beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows.

“What is he saying?” Tyrion asked the knight.

“That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …”

“I heard it. Go, Asha. Once Euron has been crowned, he’ll look for you. You dare not let his eye fall upon you.”

I think Benerro meant Euron and the danger posed to Dany’s dragons by the horn. Sam saw Euron’s personal banner and it shows a red eye with a black pupil.

“I have seen you in the nightfires, Victarion Greyjoy. You come striding through the flames stern and fierce, your great axe dripping blood, blind to the tentacles that grasp you at wrist and neck and ankle, the black strings that make you dance.”

Victarion was blind to the tentacles of Euron that grasped him and used him like a puppet.

“Have you seen these others in your fires?” he asked, warily.

“Only their shadows,” Moqorro said. “One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood.”

Moqorro sees the shadow of Euron as a one-eyed kraken sailing on a sea of blood. The sea of blood might refer to Euron’s bloody and merciless campaign, which is going too bloody well for the time being. Victarion is already described as being grasped by one of those long arms of Euron.

The Bloody Hand

His left hand still throbbed—a dull pain, but persistent.

He grimaced as the woman slid the point of her knife beneath the soiled linen wound about his shield hand.

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester.

Victarion’s left hand (his shield hand) was bloody and blackened from fire after he was healed by Moqorro. He also noted that his hand was stronger than it ever was.

Aegon the Conqueror to Orys: “...My shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand.”

Dany is the parallel of Aegon. Since she embraced Fire and Blood, will she embrace the fiery and the bloody hand of Victarion too?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Great job Paper Waver

one question, what do you make of the POV change?

btw, Euron would want Victarion to reach SB, but to die short after... his best case scenario would be if Victarion reaches Meereen, uses the horn, which makes the dragons/one dragon bond with the owner (euron), and dies afterwards.

That´s why the dusky woman as a poisoner makes sense. She can control the timing.

[Mithras]

one question, what do you make of the POV change?

Victarion's POV chapters were always changing like Aeron and Asha. This time he was the Iron Suitor. In the next chapter in which he will be fully cooperating with Moqorro, he will be called Victarion. That is important because so far neither Asha nor Aeron were able to have a chapter with their real names. Theon is another person who managed to "know" his real name.

btw, Euron would want Victarion to reach SB, but to die short after... his best case scenario would be if Victarion reaches Meereen, uses the horn, which makes the dragons/one dragon bond with the owner (euron), and dies afterwards.

That´s why the dusky woman as a poisoner makes sense. She can control the timing.

I think no one can be sure about the situation at Meereen. Going there and blowing the horn does not sound like a plan. And there is this siege the dusky woman knows well too. Victarion had to fight his way to reach Meereen. It is also difficult to control the amount of infection.

The dusky woman as the poisoner is not impossible but we need to make further assumptions to come up with a reasonable theory.

We will also see in the next chapter that Victarion was planning to blow the horn by himself assuming that Euron lied to him and does not want him to sound the horn himself. So, poisoning Victarion is not necessary.

[horizon]

Like the comparision between Jon Connington and Victarions's hand "problems". Nice.

And, yes, Victarion is becoming who he really is. Away from the tentacles. Away from Damphair's and Euron's influence.

As for the poisoning, it would be neat if it was just a "mere" infection. The alcohol bit and behaviour makes sense.

[HexMachina]

Paper Weaver;

I think Lord too fat meant the POV change when Vic has his hand worked on by Moqorro. How it kind of switches from his direct POV

[Mithras]

Paper Weaver;

I think Lord too fat meant the POV change when Vic has his hand worked on by Moqorro. How it kind of switches from his direct POV

Hmm, never noticed that before.

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain’s cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester. “That one. Cut his throat and throw him in the sea, and the winds will favor us all the way to Meereen.” Moqorro had seen that in his fires. He had seen the wench wed too, but what of it? She would not be the first woman Victarion Greyjoy had made a widow.

I think it is related to my earlier point. The iron captain is gone and now we have Victarion Greyjoy. Perhaps George wanted to point this significant change in Victarion's character by this POV switch. As we said, his next POV is called Victarion and his TWoW POV is also called Victarion for the time being.

[Hrafntýr]

Paper Waver: Regarding the poisoning theory, it strikes me that you could just as easily imagine the Dusky Woman acting as an independent agent, rather than as an agent of Euron, in the hypothetical poisoning. This would make the scenario involving her similar to Kerwin's, and eliminate the matter of timing. After all, just because Victarion is seen sort of "opening up" to her or becoming accustomed to her or comfortable with her presence, this in no way implies that she feels the same way about him. After all, we see him smacking her around and screwing her whenever he wishes. Though it's true that without Victarion in command, the Ironborn are like as not to turn around and head back to Westeros, which would be more in Kerwin's interests than in those of the Dusky Woman. I think she'd just as soon get the hell away from the Ironborn, and while we've no idea where she's from or from where Euron took her, Essos has got to be a more likely escape route than Westeros.

The hissing like a snake is fascinating. My best guesses for it are either that she recognizes the arrival of someone who will foil her plan (if she's got one) or some other animosity toward the Rhllorist religion/priesthood.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nice work. I hope you're ok, now. (It was a hand surgery you had?? That's commitment to your work! :P )

Anyway, I'll like to point out just a couple of things:

Victarion is Changing

Victarion’s reasoning works well enough although he was dubbed as a dumb by George rather unfairly. He starts to nurse doubts about his faith and for good reason.

[snip]

Without wanting to start a religious debate, and ironically being myself Catholic, it's kinda funny the the "dumb" character is the one realising that his Faith might be in fact a scam. I'm not saying that all religious people in their world or our world are idiots who are easily befuddled by religion, but in some cases, it is (specially all of those new religious that actually ask for your money, but whatever). And impressionable/vulnerable people are easy targets.

We do know that in ASOIAF, while it's not textual evidence of it, there isn't actually one or two gods but "forces" who either belong to the same thing or they don't and try to cancel each other. And these forces use the nature to fight (I remember my former religion teacher actually saying that about God: that he doesn't do magic but uses nature. She was a nun, btw). In that way, I see that Victarion is in the right direction to find out what religion in Westeros really is. He didn't do the rituals wrong, but whatever force "protects" the Iron Born was too close to another kind of force (the one conjure by Benerro/Moqorro?) and it didn't work as he wanted to. Because VIctarion's god, the Drowned God should be present anywhere there is Sea and sailors, right?

Either way, Victarion's musings about religion are very accurate and he's closer to the truth than Melisandre or any other man of faith we've known. Another proof that maybe GRRM's description of him did a poor favour to his character and it's a bit contradictory.

Paper Weaver;

I think Lord too fat meant the POV change when Vic has his hand worked on by Moqorro. How it kind of switches from his direct POV

Hmm, never noticed that before.

It's a switch from third-person subjective to third-person omniscient. Subtle, but it's there. To be honest, I don't remember to have noticed before in ASOIAF. I do remember it in HP, though. There is a chapter that finish with something like "HP would never remember that dream again" or "in the years to come, Harry wouldn't face a danger like that...", etc.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Another thing, is that all of the current "Hands"' hands are kinda doomed.

JonCon has greyscale and it has started in his hand. We know what happened to Davos' fingers. And while Victarion isn't Euron's Hand, he's pretty much his second in command. And his hand was hurt. I wonder if that foreshadows that Barristan might lose his hand either in battle or by Victarion.

(I'm not counting KL's hand because there are too much shenanigans happening there already...)

[Hrafntýr]

Regarding the switch to 3rd person: the cynical would say that it's GRRM's way of avoiding having to reveal anything about the magical doings between Victarion and Moqorro. It was certainly jarring the first time I read it, and it's still kind of hard to reconcile with the entire rest of the series.

And JonCon's Red Beard: Although I don't think Victarion is dumb, I also don't really read him as questioning the grounds of religion. I think he does have a sort of naive view that connects religion to power, and isn't particularly interested in any kinds of theological explanations that might rationalize or justify this or that religion over another. He was raised in the religion of the Drowned God, and when he encounters a sort of "failure" of that god to man up and produce the goods, he doesn't question his religion itself, he just says, "well, that must be the religion for back there in Westeros, and there must be other gods active here. Okay, I'll go ahead and perform rituals for both." Aeron would tell him its blasphemy and irreligious, but Aeron isn't around for him to obey (and again, I don't see Vic actually engaging religious debates himself, I think he just accepts what those around him tell him is the case). He's just making it up as he goes along, in a very naive and charming way. Or at least that's how I read it, not some profound questioning of the grounds of religion.

That said, I think Victarion is very, very perceptive, and his observations around these matters are illuminating for us as readers, even if his conclusions aren't. And maybe that's what you meant anyway!

[Mithras]

Paper Waver: Regarding the poisoning theory, it strikes me that you could just as easily imagine the Dusky Woman acting as an independent agent, rather than as an agent of Euron, in the hypothetical poisoning. This would make the scenario involving her similar to Kerwin's, and eliminate the matter of timing. After all, just because Victarion is seen sort of "opening up" to her or becoming accustomed to her or comfortable with her presence, this in no way implies that she feels the same way about him. After all, we see him smacking her around and screwing her whenever he wishes. Though it's true that without Victarion in command, the Ironborn are like as not to turn around and head back to Westeros, which would be more in Kerwin's interests than in those of the Dusky Woman. I think she'd just as soon get the hell away from the Ironborn, and while we've no idea where she's from or from where Euron took her, Essos has got to be a more likely escape route than Westeros.

Yeah, that might be the case. She might be in a depression and want to kill him in a suicidal fashion without thinking the consequences. Euron claimed that she was a slave headed for Lys IIRC. As we discussed before, there was a 10 year old bastard of Euron whose skin is described similar to the Dusky Woman (brown). It maybe nothing but it may also be a hint.

The hissing like a snake is fascinating. My best guesses for it are either that she recognizes the arrival of someone who will foil her plan (if she's got one) or some other animosity toward the Rhllorist religion/priesthood.

Yes, it has to be important. Moqorro didn’t even look like a red priest (his robes were more pink than red) and less so under the lack of light in the cabin. His robes should appear black to her at first sight. Later we will see that Victarion will give black robes to Moqorro hoping that this Greyjoy color would make him more appealing to the crew but Moqorro will look more sinister than ever, which btw is hilarious.

One possibility is that she saw through the glamor and was terrified by his real appearance. I don't think she can identify the flame tattoos and red robes so fast. Perhaps she was like Dafuq!?

Nice work. I hope you're ok, now. (It was a hand surgery you had?? That's commitment to your work! :P )

Thanks. Just came from the gym and the arm is completely healed.

Without wanting to start a religious debate, and ironically being myself Catholic, it's kinda funny the the "dumb" character is the one realising that his Faith might be in fact a scam. I'm not saying that all religious people in their world or our world are idiots who are easily befuddled by religion, but in some cases, it is (specially all of those new religious that actually ask for your money, but whatever). And impressionable/vulnerable people are easy targets.

We do know that in ASOIAF, while it's not textual evidence of it, there isn't actually one or two gods but "forces" who either belong to the same thing or they don't and try to cancel each other. And these forces use the nature to fight (I remember my former religion teacher actually saying that about God: that he doesn't do magic but uses nature. She was a nun, btw). In that way, I see that Victarion is in the right direction to find out what religion in Westeros really is. He didn't do the rituals wrong, but whatever force "protects" the Iron Born was too close to another kind of force (the one conjure by Benerro/Moqorro?) and it didn't work as he wanted to. Because VIctarion's god, the Drowned God should be present anywhere there is Sea and sailors, right?

Either way, Victarion's musings about religion are very accurate and he's closer to the truth than Melisandre or any other man of faith we've known. Another proof that maybe GRRM's description of him did a poor favour to his character and it's a bit contradictory.

I think there are different schools of magic in ASOIAF and they are attributed to different gods by different cultures.

Another thing, is that all of the current "Hands"' hands are kinda doomed.

JonCon has greyscale and it has started in his hand. We know what happened to Davos' fingers. And while Victarion isn't Euron's Hand, he's pretty much his second in command. And his hand was hurt. I wonder if that foreshadows that Barristan might lose his hand either in battle or by Victarion.

(I'm not counting KL's hand because there are too much shenanigans happening there already...)

I think George has a special thing for hands. Jaime also lost a hand and I think he will serve as the Hand when he returns to KL. I like the R+L=Lightbringer theory very much. The author of that theory suggests that Jon is based on Mithras and he is going through the stages of initiation. Initiates of Mithraic Mysteries called themselves syndexioi, those “united by the handshake”. I remember Jon’s handshake with Tyrion in AGoT.

Regarding the switch to 3rd person: the cynical would say that it's GRRM's way of avoiding having to reveal anything about the magical doings between Victarion and Moqorro. It was certainly jarring the first time I read it, and it's still kind of hard to reconcile with the entire rest of the series.

This makes sense because we read the pyre through Dany’s POV and it was sheer madness. George did not give us the details of the process. George wanst magic to be unpredictable and secret, as he told in an SSM.

And JonCon's Red Beard: Although I don't think Victarion is dumb, I also don't really read him as questioning the grounds of religion. I think he does have a sort of naive view that connects religion to power, and isn't particularly interested in any kinds of theological explanations that might rationalize or justify this or that religion over another. He was raised in the religion of the Drowned God, and when he encounters a sort of "failure" of that god to man up and produce the goods, he doesn't question his religion itself, he just says, "well, that must be the religion for back there in Westeros, and there must be other gods active here. Okay, I'll go ahead and perform rituals for both." Aeron would tell him its blasphemy and irreligious, but Aeron isn't around for him to obey (and again, I don't see Vic actually engaging religious debates himself, I think he just accepts what those around him tell him is the case). He's just making it up as he goes along, in a very naive and charming way. Or at least that's how I read it, not some profound questioning of the grounds of religion.

I kind of agree with this. Victarion will start to see the power of the Red God by the accurate predictions of Moqorro and he will say that two gods are now backing them. I think Moqorro is successfully turning him to the dismay of the religious ironborn in the crew.

That said, I think Victarion is very, very perceptive, and his observations around these matters are illuminating for us as readers, even if his conclusions aren't. And maybe that's what you meant anyway!

I fully agree with this. Victarion is not dumb. He just thinks simple and his perception is also simple. There are things that a complex mind cannot make sense but a simple mind can see the truth as it is. Victarion’s simple perception is a necessary trait on occasions. His observations are more accurate and generally do not contain any POV bias.