Heresy 126

[Amoracchius]

How about a total change of pace, what if we (some of us) are looking at it all wrong. BC, I think you've been in an around the area I'm about to dive right into.

Many of us are looking at the singers as having used extreme magic in either an offensive or defensive capacity against the FM and in so doing they have created (inadvertently) a serious issue.

We are so wrong.

This takes a bit of a leap but here we go:

• The Rise of Valyria, The FM war with the Singers, The Long Night and Azor Ahai all happen at roughly the same time, with it being in roughly the order I set out.

The Valyrians blood magic wasn't just to control dragons, it made them. Blood sacrifice of slaves, a bit of magic and a wyrm, boom, dragon. They "woke the dragons from the stone"

This was not good, not good at all.

Something funny starts happening to the seasons.

The FM and CotF sign the pact (,ore of a non aggression thing tbh) in order to try and deal with the growing chaos.

The CotF propose a radical plan.

"Something is wrong with the flow of the world" sayeth the children, "the connection to the other continent must be broken"

Stop

hammer time

This naturally causes it own problems but in the short term it seems to have worked. The FM and CotF split almost entirely from each other and life continues along quite nicely

That is until a winter comes, that never freakin ends

Needless to say the FM are on the brink of total buggery

enter stage left, the Last Hero

Somehow he persuades the CotF to do some epic magic

They bind his bloodline to the changing of the seasons

One child sacrificed to bring the summer

One child chosen to rule the winter

"Chosen to rule the winter" is another way of saying "a Stark on The Wall"

Ah yes

The Wall

This thing went up as a kind of "valve" to keep winter where it should be but still allow some to get out to create a semi-natural winter.

So The Wall is up and the Starks man the Black Gate.

Each turn of the seasons a Stark boy is "given to the trees" to bring back summer

And each Winter a Stark must be in Winterfell to assure the line continues.

Night's King

Oh boy, you're going to love this.

So NK was the Stark in Winterfell but after he sacrificed A DAUGHTER to the trees to bring summer

He went a bit... funny.

He decides to live out his days in isolation manning the Black Gate.

Wouldn't you just know it, his daughter comes strolling out of the haunted forest one night

Something is different about her eyes though...

:D

Very very interesting stuff.

[Black Crow]

I'm one of those to whom Black Crow alludes when he says that some of us think that there are enough wrinkles in the story as told to raise some doubts as to whether it hasn't been subject to serious revision or simply been misremembered. As he notes, there's the issue of "thirteen": it's a bit odd that we've got the doubling of thirteen years with thirteen Lord Commanders. I'd add to this that this "thirteenth" aligns rather too neatly with the 12 companions of the Last Hero, which is one of the reasons I'm inclined to identify the Last Hero with Night's King. Then there's that song, "The Night that Ended," that figures an already-formed Night's Watch riding out for the Battle for the Dawn.

Its relatively easy to make a certain sense of this if we strip it back to its essentials. The Kingdoms of Men are taking a beating so a fellowship of 13 Heroes set out to find the children of the forest, who certainly aren't allies and some of us think are actually behind this one way or another. Over time the 13 get whittled down to one and he's in trouble, but the children help him. We don't know what form that help took but it certainly wasn't helping men to defeat the Others, not when all of the lands north of the Wall remained lost. The price of that help [because nothing comes free] may have been to bind him his to guard the Black Gate and Winterfell; which the Starks did until one fine day they fell out.

The other theory brings the whole business forward. Same basic story but several generations later and the Stark of Winterfell overthrows his brother at the Wall, this time as the price of peace with the Andal invaders.

[wolfmaid7]

Personally, I'm not sure that we'll see Jon and Bran run into that kind of conflict with one another - for a couple of reasons. One is that Bran is not the only figure we've seen play this role of "summer king" - another one,

Raises a number of questions in my mind. For instance... is this separation of summer/winter aspects of the sky god reflected in the difference between the Stark of Winterfell, and the Stark on the Wall? That works in terms of the Bran/Jon division, and would add some depth to our reading of the Night's King story. Also: if "madness" at Craster's Keep fits the traditional story of seasonal transition at Samhain... then how does that affect our understanding of Craster's Keep and Winterfell? Jeor Mormont also was killed there, so that paved the way toward Jon's ascendancy. And if Gilly represents some combination of Celtic goddess figures, perhaps that fits in as well. But the King-beyond-the-Wall was always Mance Rayder; it was never Craster,.. In fact, of all the characters who potentially line up with these Celtic priest-king figures... exactly zero of them have claimed kingship. (Though technically either Bran or Jon was probably "king" at the time they crossed paths in Queenscrown... because Bran dreamed of Robb's death just at that time. And actually - now that I think on it - that sequence of events almost can't be coincidental timing on Martin's part. Huh...) Anyway, the only characters north of the Neck who explicitly claim kingship are Mance and Stannis. So where do they fit in - if at all? Questions, questions... :dunno:

I I agree with what your saying here,but to add something more with the Kingship issue excluding Jon/Bran the other kings had kinship thrusted upon them by men so to speak.So i would characterize them as hollow kings.One by one they are falling,if you really check it,Stannis is the only one that's left.Jon and Bran are the two sides of the earth god and put their kingship out of the realms of men if you get me.

The alternate entrance to the cave is at the bottom of a sink-hole… tho makes me think that you can go in this way, but you cannot go out this way...

I expect that the CotF kill & eat whatever happens to stray into the sink-hole & sooner or later a POV will stumble upon this back-door, otherwise, what would be the point of GRRM mentioning it...

--

I don't think there is anything unique going on with regards to time in the cave… In both bran & arya's ADWD chapters, GRRM uses the same "moon technique" to let the reader know that these seemingly simultaneous events are actually occurring over the course of one or more month...

This is the one hiccup against what you are suggesting,i can say for sure they started eating the weird meat on a full moon,and i could say Val's trip coincided with "a" full moon.You said that Arya's chapters mirror Bran's? Then the sequence of the phases of the moons should match if it is what Grrm wanted to show. I will look at it and see it and if its true i can rule out expedited time as a confounder.

The two of you have managed to nail down some strong possibilities, I've been turning this over and over but can't decide. My view of the Others has been tied up so long with the viewpoints of the main characters that I may have been thinking about them in ways that are problematic. I think that the within aspect may fit with certain characters, which is probably right where GRRM wants us.

Am thinking that Dany/dragons might be the bigger threat. Dragons were the one thing that allowed the Targaryens to finally take the north.

The jury's still out on this for me. They are doing something with ice that's different than what the singers do with songs, but everything they decide to touch might just frost up.

Am always suspicious about the proximity of the Gods Eye and Harrenal. I haven't read it all, but find the suggestion pretty intriguing. The location of the two on the map are also fascinating. . . the Singers insisted on keeping a grove of weirwoods on the Isle of Faces, close to the center of southern Westeros when they went North of the Wall. It has a kind of sacred druidic air about it.

And who wouldn't benefit from an endless summer. . .

If he survives, is Jon the Winter King?

Yeh he's definitely pegged for that position.

I would say that yes, Jon is the King of Winter and I have a strong suspicion that his stabbing was necessary to make him so, just as Bran had to be flung from the tower and Odin had to be hanged on Yggasdril.

As for an endless summer it is of course what the peasants pray for, but somehow Master Benero's vision doesn't quite beguile:

“Benerro has sent forth word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfilment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

We have this again and boy this is going to be intresting if this is true.

:cool4: Yes. I can see Roger the Shrubber in league with them. Who wouldn't want a shrubbery near the beach?

Really I have nothing to say, only :cheers: Another round, please!

There is so much here. The connections are amazing.

:cheers:

Hello, glad you're here!

Do you think a reason for the thematic tie-in of the Last Hero is some kind of attempt to stake a claim to the north? Am thinking of places like Tintagel on the coast of Cornwall; the gentleman who built the castle there claimed he was a descendant of King Arthur, because local legends put Arthur near the spot, and he wanted to get as many points as possible with the locals he'd be ruling (also, to show off his newly minted 'British' heritage to the rest of the Normans). Would someone -- one of the First Men (surely not as late as the Andals, but maybe?) make some kind of claim to this old legend and reframe it in terms of the battle that saved Westeros?

Also, wouldn't that just take the cake and turn it all if Dany and Jon both die?

It's the fire side, so reborn probably means that perpetual hellish existence that Berric Dondarrion was desparate to get out of.

Nuh this implies they are coming back as Wights.

@Wolfmaid - I agree, and as a practicing Pagan, I find it interesting to need to check my real-life biases, LOL!

:cheers: Hey its the material GRRM drew from.Merry meet

[Black Crow]

Nuh this implies they are coming back as Wights.

Got to disagree, in the context I think Toccs' reference to Beriuc Dondarrion is spot on.

[wolfmaid7]

Got to disagree, in the context I think Toccs' reference to Beriuc Dondarrion is spot on.

Lets say Dany does come to Westeros in Winter , I can't see how they would be anything but.Benero may have seen an end result...meaning her dead soldiers alive.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Good Question… We have seen at least four separate pathways that can result in characters being brought back to life - 're-born'...

1. Berrick / Cat

The Wights

Qyburn's Arts (Arts possibly shared by Roose)

MMD using sorceries born in Ashai to bring Khal Drogo's body back to life

We still don't know what Coldhand's story is

Considering the origin of this prophecy, GRRm probably wants his audience to conclude that these followers will be brought back via the 'Kiss of Fire'… However, we should probably consider the nature of fire visions & the general kind of images that Mel shares via her POV chapters… Did Benerro see a vision of a number of Dany followers being individually given the "Kiss of Fire"? or did he see a vision of numerous Dany Followers spontaneously rising from where they had been slain?

If the 2nd scenario is what Benerro saw, then it sounds like they are rising as Wights...

I don't think Khal Drogo ever actually dies. Which in a way is even more interesting; since he wasn't dead, just what did MMD do to him?

And did she kill Dany's child on purpose, or was that really just a side-effect of Jorah taking her into the tent, where she was previously warned not to go?

Of all the risen dead we've seen, only the nearly-dead Drogo has been rendered so useless. Even a wight can direct itself, and fight.

ETA: I like your wight idea. Classic failure to interpret the vision; her armies fight the Others, and the dead rise as wights, but Benerro doesn't quite understand it so he files it under "resurrection."

[Ygritte]

I don't think Khal Drogo ever actually dies. Which in a way is even more interesting; since he wasn't dead, just what did MMD do to him?

And did she kill Dany's child on purpose, or was that really just a side-effect of Jorah taking her into the tent, where she was previously warned not to go?

Of all the risen dead we've seen, only the nearly-dead Drogo has been rendered so useless. Even a wight can direct itself, and fight.

His body lived, while his soul was sucked out. I think he either had no soul at that point, or the horse's soul. So then the question is where the soul went--and it might be in one of the dragons, or it might have moved on to oblivion or the afterlife.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

In considering this its always worth bearing in mind the title he's known by; he's not the Kingslayer, the Burner or the Hungry Wolf or any of the other myriad nicknames applied to other notables for one reason or another.

He is the last Hero, quite literally the last one remaining out of the 13 heroes who set out to find the children of the forest and we can perhaps conclude that as his name is unknown, in the end he didn't come back either.

And if you start to wonder if there might be a connection between the number thirteen and the man with no name in another legend you may be starting to think like a heretic.

Its relatively easy to make a certain sense of this if we strip it back to its essentials. The Kingdoms of Men are taking a beating so a fellowship of 13 Heroes set out to find the children of the forest, who certainly aren't allies and some of us think are actually behind this one way or another. Over time the 13 get whittled down to one and he's in trouble, but the children help him. We don't know what form that help took but it certainly wasn't helping men to defeat the Others, not when all of the lands north of the Wall remained lost. The price of that help [because nothing comes free] may have been to bind him his to guard the Black Gate and Winterfell; which the Starks did until one fine day they fell out.

The other theory brings the whole business forward. Same basic story but several generations later and the Stark of Winterfell overthrows his brother at the Wall, this time as the price of peace with the Andal invaders.

Until we see something else that parallels this story better, you could well be describing the journey of Benjen Stark and his lost rangers. Granted, Benjen left off with 7 men including himself, but we've already discussed there's some weirdness with the number 13 anyway. If the heresy is correct, the number 13 wouldn't be literal, but a way to tie the Last Hero myth with the Night's King myth.

Regardless, there was a good bit of foreshadowing when Yoren visited Winterfell that the Children would help Benjen, and that he really wasn't 'missing'. The planted dragonglass at the Fist wrapped in a relatively new Watch cloak seems to indicate that as well. Of course now that Bran is essentially the great IT guy of the Weirwood Internet, it could be Bran himself helping Benjen and bringing his own foreshadowing to bear. In any case, it's pretty apparent that we'll know Benjen's fate pretty soon as he shouldn't be able to hide from Bran.

I have a theory that Benjen comes back to the wall pretty quickly in WoW. It'd be a beautiful wrench to throw into the assassination story- Imagine the shock of Bowen Marsh and the conspirators as they watch those cold Stark eyes accusing them. I've thought pretty extensively about what could save even a fraction of the Watch with a pissed off Wun Wun, Tormund, Melisandre, and host of other fierce wildlings fresh off of swearing fealty to Jon. Benjen is the only character with the heft with both factions to get them to stand down. I'm pretty convinced of it, which means means Benjen will turn up later as the last remaining brother of the Watch or something. The LAST hero in truth.

I'm one of those to whom Black Crow alludes when he says that some of us think that there are enough wrinkles in the story as told to raise some doubts as to whether it hasn't been subject to serious revision or simply been misremembered. As he notes, there's the issue of "thirteen": it's a bit odd that we've got the doubling of thirteen years with thirteen Lord Commanders. I'd add to this that this "thirteenth" aligns rather too neatly with the 12 companions of the Last Hero, which is one of the reasons I'm inclined to identify the Last Hero with Night's King. Then there's that song, "The Night that Ended," that figures an already-formed Night's Watch riding out for the Battle for the Dawn.

That's the song, damn it. Not "Iron Lances", as I've mistakenly called it several times. That song sticks out like a sore thumb. The watch definitely doesn't exist to fight the Battle for the Dawn according to what we know. I like the Heresy theory about it referring to the Night's King instead.

I don't think Khal Drogo ever actually dies. Which in a way is even more interesting; since he wasn't dead, just what did MMD do to him?

And did she kill Dany's child on purpose, or was that really just a side-effect of Jorah taking her into the tent, where she was previously warned not to go?

Of all the risen dead we've seen, only the nearly-dead Drogo has been rendered so useless. Even a wight can direct itself, and fight.

ETA: I like your wight idea. Classic failure to interpret the vision; her armies fight the Others, and the dead rise as wights, but Benerro doesn't quite understand it so he files it under "resurrection."

His body lived, while his soul was sucked out. I think he either had no soul at that point, or the horse's soul. So then the question is where the soul went--and it might be in one of the dragons, or it might have moved on to oblivion or the afterlife.

I think the resurrection through blood magic is what is in store for Jon. After the death of Rhaego and Drogos' horse in the ritual, what we saw was a perfectly healthy empty vessel. Which is bad for Drogo, because his soul has already ridden off to the Night Lands. But for a warg like Jon Snow, that is just the thing to bring him back healthy, happy, and most of all- as himself. I think there's a reason why that particular ritual was sort of branded a failure to the reader. If Jon Snow truly is AA, he's not getting the same undead resurrection as bit characters like Dondarrion.

[Ygritte]

I think the resurrection through blood magic is what is in store for Jon. After the death of Rhaego and Drogos' horse in the ritual, what we saw was a perfectly healthy empty vessel. Which is bad for Drogo, because his soul has already ridden off to the Night Lands. But for a warg like Jon Snow, that is just the thing to bring him back healthy, happy, and most of all- as himself. I think there's a reason why that particular ritual was sort of branded a failure to the reader. If Jon Snow truly is AA, he's not getting the same undead resurrection as bit characters like Dondarrion.

Good point. The body was healed, but his soul was gone, either because it had just moved on naturally, or MMD messed up, or MMD sabotaged the ritual on purpose to make her point about living after your reason to live is gone. But if Jon's body can be fixed by the same magic via Mel, then his soul is hanging around in Ghost and can go back. I think you're exactly right. I don't think he'll be a zombie.

[Black Crow]

Lets say Dany does come to Westeros in Winter , I can't see how they would be anything but.Benero may have seen an end result...meaning her dead soldiers alive.

Ah but the point is that Benero is preaching a holy war against Valyria and urging the huddled masses to throw their sweaty nightcaps in the air and follow, he's not talking about a vision of snowy Westeros.

[TheButcherCrow]

Wow, TBC, this is grand! I'm not sure about the total package, I'll have to think more about it, but there are a number of points with which I completely agree. For example: the Valyrians made dragons. Check. That it wasn't good. Check. Something funny starts to happen with the seasons. Check. The Hammer as an attempt to set things aright. Quite plausible. That this is somehow linked to the emergence of Long Night/Winter. Also plausible. Basically, this suggests that Westeros became the source of Ice/Winter and Essos became the source of Fire/Summer as a consequence of the Hammer. Is this what you meant to suggest?

Not sure about the child sacrifice bit.

The Wall as season-regulating valve. Definitely plausible.

But the sacrifice of a daughter...do say more! Are you suggesting that this sacrificed daughter is the White Lady/Night? That the terrible crime that the Stark on the Wall/NK committed was incest with his sacrificed daughter?

That was a "off the top of my head, throw it at the wall and see what sticks" kind of a post, As for NK's daughter, in the light of day it seems somewhat bonkers but it has a dramatic irony to it that I'm drawn to. It can be filed alongside my "Ned & Lyanna are Jon's parents" in the "not disprovable but highly unlikely file" :D I'm really just trying to draw ice and fire together in meaningful way. I need to start a re-read. We should organise a heretic re-read of the entire text + D&E (and assorted novellas) to keep us going till LOIAF comes out.

[Black Crow]

Until we see something else that parallels this story better, you could well be describing the journey of Benjen Stark and his lost rangers. Granted, Benjen left off with 7 men including himself, but we've already discussed there's some weirdness with the number 13 anyway. If the heresy is correct, the number 13 wouldn't be literal, but a way to tie the Last Hero myth with the Night's King myth.

Regardless, there was a good bit of foreshadowing when Yoren visited Winterfell that the Children would help Benjen, and that he really wasn't 'missing'. The planted dragonglass at the Fist wrapped in a relatively new Watch cloak seems to indicate that as well. Of course now that Bran is essentially the great IT guy of the Weirwood Internet, it could be Bran himself helping Benjen and bringing his own foreshadowing to bear. In any case, it's pretty apparent that we'll know Benjen's fate pretty soon as he shouldn't be able to hide from Bran.

I have a theory that Benjen comes back to the wall pretty quickly in WoW. It'd be a beautiful wrench to throw into the assassination story- Imagine the shock of Bowen Marsh and the conspirators as they watch those cold Stark eyes accusing them. I've thought pretty extensively about what could save even a fraction of the Watch with a pissed off Wun Wun, Tormund, Melisandre, and host of other fierce wildlings fresh off of swearing fealty to Jon. Benjen is the only character with the heft with both factions to get them to stand down. I'm pretty convinced of it, which means means Benjen will turn up later as the last remaining brother of the Watch or something. The LAST hero in truth.

Well once again we still don't know how the children "helped" last time around or what the price of that help might have been, but as outlined earlier there is a shrewd suspicion that its what binds the Starks to Winter and while I share your confidence that Benjen will return to the story - through Jon going north to find him - I'd rather be inclined to suspect that Jon will not only learn the truth of what was pledged all those years ago, but learn also that either it will be his turn to pay the price or perhaps to break the bond.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Well once again we still don't know how the children "helped" last time around or what the price of that help might have been, but as outlined earlier there is a shrewd suspicion that its what binds the Starks to Winter and while I share your confidence that Benjen will return to the story - through Jon going north to find him - I'd rather be inclined to suspect that Jon will not only learn the truth of what was pledged all those years ago, but learn also that either it will be his turn to pay the price or perhaps to break the bond.

Old Nan maintained that the Wall couldn't fall while the brothers of the Night's Watch stayed true. Everything Northern seems comes back to what Old Nan says, doesn't it?

That's always been the problem with my Benjen returns and saves some remnant of the Watch theory. The Wall is an icy and magical 700-foot tall version of Chekov's gun. It pretty much HAS to fall at some point, or it doesn't make much sense, especially when coupled with Dany's vision of seeing a battle with the Others being fought on the Trident where Rhaegar once shed his rubies. The brothers can't be argued to be true after the events of the series, but I'd argue they weren't when we first met them either- they've forgotten their purpose.

In the spirit of expediency, though, I hope Benjen comes South rather than us having to wait for Jon to go North. There's probably not enough book left for one of the extended travelogues GRRM is so fond of. And God forbid if Azor Ahai has to eat on the way! That's a couple chapters worth of food porn right there. :lol:

Either variant of idea can serve as the vessel to Jon learning the truth about the pact, who is stuck with the bill, and why.

One thing is for sure, the Children definitely don't seem like the magical nice guys they've been made out to be. Lairs full of bones and darkness and blood sacrifices to the Weirwoods may just be trope-slaying, but I'm more inclined to believe they've been misrepresented in the stories we've heard about them, and their motives are their own. Their history says they should have no real reason to like humans very much, but perhaps there's an exception for the First Men, since they agreed to the Pact, and took the Old Gods for their own.

It's a nice conversation, and I thank you for it. I've been reading since 1996, and I've turned countless people onto the books since, but there isn't a single one of them that likes to get bogged down in the minutiae with me.

[wolfmaid7]

Good point. The body was healed, but his soul was gone, either because it had just moved on naturally, or MMD messed up, or MMD sabotaged the ritual on purpose to make her point about living after your reason to live is gone. But if Jon's body can be fixed by the same magic via Mel, then his soul is hanging around in Ghost and can go back. I think you're exactly right. I don't think he'll be a zombie.

If Jon's body is dead he's going to rise no matter what if the Wall is breached, and i think that's the point of those bodies in the cell they'll rise too....Jon won't need anyone to resurrect him because they aren't doing any resurrection. Thoros didn't bring back Beric he was doing a simple Rhollrist funeral rite.Beric coming back was not his intent.He just thinks he did something but really he didn't.

Mel had a vison of what will be occuring around the time of Jon's death,she didn't get it but there are clues.What we first have to remember about Mel is this women doesn't feel cold.She walks around the Wall in such a manner she is repeatedly counciled about wearing something warmer.When she walks in the snow it melts something she hoped Jon would notice as it is a sign of her power. Note this

^{"After the warmth of the King's solar the turnpike staircase was bone chilling cold"."Winds rising my lady ,you might want to dress warmer".I have my faith to warm me".( They are heading back across the yard,a few sentences later)}

^{Jon could feel her heat ,even through his wool and boiled leather".}

^{"Ice i see and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard,and naked steel.}

^{"It was very cold".}

^{"It is always cold on the wall."}

^{"You think so?"}

^{"I know so,my lady."}

^{"Then you know nothing,Jon Snow," she whispered(ADWD,Jon,pg.59).}

^{Mel is basically telling Jon he don't know what cold is what she felt through her vision warned her of that.}

Snowflakes swirled form the dark a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them,the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced up a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold. Beneath a grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves.Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in,impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out"(ADWD,Mel,pg.408).

If you notice from the above Mel has had two visions where for all her power and heat ...she this woman who never feel's cold is remarking about how cold she felt. The second quote is of particular interest

So when Jon gets stabbed and we see this:

" He never felt the fourth dagger only the cold"( ADWD,Jon).

When Stannis broke the Wildling host V6 in the Eagle remarks about something coming from the East....Harna some woman who was with them said "East? The Wights are behind us ,North"

Jon didn't feel cold he felt "the cold".......These two bits of info along with Mels vision of his stabbing where she tells him it was VERY COLD point to one thing....Doo is about to hit the fan and Jon is going to be engaged in the fight of his life.......A fight he will win,but he's waking up with blue eyes.

Ah but the point is that Benero is preaching a holy war against Valyria and urging the huddled masses to throw their sweaty nightcaps in the air and follow, he's not talking about a vision of snowy Westeros.

Yeah i know what he's speaking of,but "following" means following her and if she is heading to Westeros then you see the problem.Despite speaking about Valyria he's maybe seeing an outcome.If Valyria is already the LOAS then there's no need to usher in Summer there. Coupled with Dany's dream she maybe heading to Westeros first.She may realize that's not where she needs to be after making a complete mess of everything North by bringing an army that has never felt Winter to face certain death.

[Eira Seren]

It's the fire side, so reborn probably means that perpetual hellish existence that Berric Dondarrion was desparate to get out of.

Or the icy hell waiting for the Starks? In the Prologue Gared talks about how the cold "burns."

snip

:D

Much of this holds up, the major crackpottery is the part about the daughter. The incest part is perhaps less taboo than we might think, given Craster's situation. Ned's issue is less with the Lannister incest and more with the way it cuts out Robert's legitimate heirs.

Still. :ack: Though I think the issue might be more about not having truck with the dead over anything.

Good Question… We have seen at least four separate pathways that can result in characters being brought back to life - 're-born'...

1. Berrick / Cat

The Wights

Qyburn's Arts (Arts possibly shared by Roose)

MMD using sorceries born in Ashai to bring Khal Drogo's body back to life

We still don't know what Coldhand's story is

Considering the origin of this prophecy, GRRm probably wants his audience to conclude that these followers will be brought back via the 'Kiss of Fire'… However, we should probably consider the nature of fire visions & the general kind of images that Mel shares via her POV chapters… Did Benerro see a vision of a number of Dany followers being individually given the "Kiss of Fire"? or did he see a vision of numerous Dany Followers spontaneously rising from where they had been slain?

If the 2nd scenario is what Benerro saw, then it sounds like they are rising as Wights...

It does sound like wights to me. One other thing: Beric looked in remarkably good shape, and UnCat was dead for a few days prior, so looks worse. Coldhands may have a recognizable or terrible face, and his hands are all black, so he was probably dead a bit as well. However, if Bloodraven raised him using a kiss of fire, it might explain why he isn't more like a wight.

[Eira Seren]

Mel is the queen of unreliable narrators. I have always gotten the feeling that if she finds Azor Azai, she's going to use him/her/tree/rock/small furry animal for her own ends if she's able. She's a zealot in every sense of the word, perhaps not a terrible person, but definitely is playing her own game.

Thank you! Hello right back!

I think the odds of the people of the North knowing about all these Eastern prophecies at the time when the Last Hero is said to have existed are slim. But something is definitely fishy about such a great hero to the realm not even having had a name worth remembering when other age of heroes characters like Lann the Clever and Bran the Builder are remembered fondly and well even in modern Westeros. Perhaps it was a retroactive claim on the legend, but I'd guess not. Old Nan's stories seem to have a kernel of truth at the least. I'd wager that there was a last hero, but to Old Nan- it was probably an Eddard, Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna, Robb, Arya, Sansa, Rickard Stark or Jon Snow, depending on who was listening to her tell it.

And yes, it'd be quite the departure from every other fantasy story I've ever read if both Jon and Dany died and the Targaryen lineage were destroyed to save the realm they chose to conquer to save themselves at one point. I really like the symetry of it. Conquer and set yourselves above the Westerosi, then eventually be forced to sacrifice your family to the last member to save it. It's always been what I want most to see, even though I like Jon a great deal, and Dany well enough (when she's not sexually obsessing over sellswords for two books and embroiled in terrible character regression).

Completely agree about Mel, if I were Jon I'd be quite nervous.

That's a good point about the perspective changing depending on which family you belong to, or Nan naming whoever was listening to hook her listeners. I bet Roose could tell us some good ones about the Boltons, whether they were really the hero of the story or not. That, and the idea of Jon and Dany won't live to see the end seems to fit with what someone has called the "failure of the hero and the grand narrative" that's so in keeping with the way we tell stories today.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

If Jon's body is dead he's going to rise no matter what if the Wall is breached, and i think that's the point of those bodies in the cell they'll rise too....Jon won't need anyone to resurrect him because they aren't doing any resurrection. Thoros didn't bring back Beric he was doing a simple Rhollrist funeral rite.Beric coming back was not his intent.He just thinks he did something but really he didn't.

If Beric's resurrection was a simple funeral rite of R'hllor gone awry, then how did Dondarrion pass the gift to Catelyn, not being a Red Priest capable of giving proper funerary rites?

We're led to believe Beric was chosen by R'hllor until he was used up, then his favor passed to Cat. We assume the same thing will repeat itself with her based on what we've already seen.

Strictly speaking, Thoros didn't do anything as you say, but the god he represented surely worked through him to choose Dondarrion as an instrument of his will.

I think a cigar is just a cigar in this case. There's not much reason to suspect that Dondarrion and Stoneheart aren't exactly what we're told they are.

As to the rest, I don't mean to be overly contrary, but I've never understood the idea that because Jon felt the cold instead of the fourth knife that stabbed him it could mean the Others were invading at that very moment. The cold the Others bring with them has to be magical in nature, and the Wall prevents that magic. For the Others to have even gotten close enough to Hardin's Tower for Jon to feel that cold, at that time, the Wall would have already had to have been breached. I find it very difficult to believe that something that monumentally important went unnoticed and undescribed.

The closest I can come to believing there are Others present is if Jon's wights have risen in the ice cells at that time. But even then, the Ice Cells should prevent the magic, even if the wights bring the cold with them. (Edited this bit for a quote from Sam saying the cold is associated with wights also. I had forgotten.)

Much of this holds up, the major crackpottery is the part about the daughter. The incest part is perhaps less taboo than we might think, given Craster's situation. Ned's issue is less with the Lannister incest and more with the way it cuts out Robert's legitimate heirs.

For as morally outraged as certain characters get about incest, and despite the descriptors used like 'abomination', the realm as a whole seems to meet the accusations of incest with a giant, ear-piercing silence.

Every commoner in Westeros has to have heard about Cersei and Jaime's incest and the heirs not belonging to Robert, but outside of Stannis, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and that common lady who really and emphatically likes yelling the word "Brotherfucker" on Cersei's walk of shame, there's a resounding lack of anyone giving much of a damn.

Completely agree about Mel, if I were Jon I'd be quite nervous.

That's a good point about the perspective changing depending on which family you belong to, or Nan naming whoever was listening to hook her listeners. I bet Roose could tell us some good ones about the Boltons, whether they were really the hero of the story or not. That, and the idea of Jon and Dany won't live to see the end seems to fit with what someone has called the "failure of the hero and the grand narrative" that's so in keeping with the way we tell stories today.

Nervous certainly. But our old pal Jon has become quite adept at telling authority figures no. I've liked all of the interaction between Jon and Stannis for just this reason. Stannis grumbles at Jon for not giving into his demands, but ultimately, that's what makes Jon worth respecting to him in the first place. Jon has become Stannis' surrogate Davos while Davos is out trying to call the banners.

I don't know if I see my idea of Jon and Dany dying as specifically a failure of heroes, but more that's the price of being the chosen one and fulfilling the prophecy. Only death can pay for life when magic is involved. I would tend to think that would make them successful heroes as long as the people of Westeros survive to rebuild the shattered realm.

[wolfmaid7]

If Beric's resurrection was a simple funeral rite of R'hllor gone awry, then how did Dondarrion pass the gift to Catelyn, not being a Red Priest capable of giving proper funerary rites?

We're led to believe Beric was chosen by R'hllor until he was used up, then his favor passed to Cat. We assume the same thing will repeat itself with her based on what we've already seen.

Strictly speaking, Thoros didn't do anything as you say, but the god he represented surely worked through him to choose Dondarrion as an instrument of his will.

I think a cigar is just a cigar in this case. There's not much reason to suspect that Dondarrion and Stoneheart aren't exactly what we're told they are.

As to the rest, I don't mean to be overly contrary, but I've never understood the idea that because Jon felt the cold instead of the fourth knife that stabbed him it could mean the Others were invading at that very moment. The cold the Others bring with them has to be magical in nature, and the Wall prevents that magic. For the Others to have even gotten close enough to Hardin's Tower for Jon to feel that cold, at that time, the Wall would have already had to have been breached. I find it very difficult to believe that something that monumentally important went unnoticed and undescribed.

The closest I can come to believing there are Others present is if Jon's wights have risen in the ice cells at that time. But even then, the wights aren't said to bring the cold, only the Others/Crasters' Sons.

I think you answered your question what was in Dondarrion went into Cat,he was the one that basically did the "infecting" so to speak.It is implied the ice wights can do the same thing.

Think about what Old Nan said about the streangth of the Wall in relation to the men who guard it,so it is more than likely that the Wall has been breached.Again if you look at Mel's quote above of what she saw and felt through the fires and take into consideration that SHE DOES NOT FEEL COLD then you can see the pattern surrounding Jon's death.They are not far.The Cold that comes with the Wights can be felt over a much larger distance( it is what raises the dead )than what the wws emit because (they are creatures of winter)

No that is incorrect is about 12 quotes that dismiss this so i will just post 3

"Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold."

"Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights

that bring the cold?"

"Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's

what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they

won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!" (Wait what? who is Grenn talking about?)

Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were

dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty. He wrapped his hands

around his legs, sweating under his layers of wool and leather and fur.The

dragonglass dagger had melted the pale thing in the woods, true ... but Grenn

was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he

thought. We don't know anything, really.

Snowflakes swirled form the dark a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them,the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced up a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold. Beneath a grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves.Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in,impossibly cold and one by one the fires went out"(ADWD,Mel,pg.408).

The flame flickered and swayed, the shadows moved around him, the room seemed to grow darker and colder. I will not sleep tonight, Jon thought. Yet he must have dozed.......... Jon was startled to see how tall he'd grown. "Ghost, what is it?" he called softly. The direwolf turned his head and looked down at him, baring his fangs in a silent snarl. Has he gone mad? Jon wondered. "It's me, Ghost," he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold? (AGOT,Jon)

[Phillip Frye]

Think about what Old Nan said about the strength of the Wall in relation to the men who guard it,so it is more than likely that the Wall has been breached.

Have we discussed Lycurgus yet? I can't remember the name coming up.

[wolfmaid7]

Have we discussed Lycurgus yet? I can't remember the name coming up.

Which one? The Spartan reformer or the Greek mythological King of Edoni and in what context? Either way I don't recall them coming up.