Jon would have done much better than Robb

[RavenKing23]

Im smelling something, it suspiciously smells like bias. Jon's run as LC was actually about the same as Robb's KitN. Except for the fact Robb won his battles by his own merit; no Donal, no Wall, no Stannis. Add to the fact he was fighting real soldiers, not an angry mob.

Im not saying one was particularly better than the other, they both did what they deemed right and both where stabbed in the back for it. Jon though will appefantly be revived and get a second chance. . . Thats the definition of plot armor, when you're brought back to life.

Also I don't wanna be that guy but the OP seems a bit prejudice to the good Tully family

[maximilian]

Except for the fact Robb won his battles by his own merit; no Donal, no Wall, no Stannis.

Just to be fair, Robb had several battle hardened Northern lords and Riverlords to counsel and help him, among them the extremly resourceful Blackfish.

I agree with your main point though.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Im smelling something, it suspiciously smells like bias. Jon's run as LC was actually about the same as Robb's KitN. Except for the fact Robb won his battles by his own merit; no Donal, no Wall, no Stannis. Add to the fact he was fighting real soldiers, not an angry mob.

Wait a minute. You mean that Robb single handedly won the battles? Because if he didn't he didn't won his battles by his own.

[Sullen]

This is just a thread made to show that if Jon were the one leading the armies circa AGOT, things would have been much better for the Stark family

1) No poisonous Tully influence

We all know what great contributions the Tullys made to Robb's cause. In that they screwed things up time and time again, releasing one of their most prized captives and withdrawing men from the Twins for example. If Jon were the one at war, he would not have to deal with this family at all, or the Riverlands. This would have made him more successful than Robb ever was. He could probably even get them on his side regardless for a common cause, but he would not be attached to them by any blood obligation

2) Jon would have supported Stannis

I have no doubt in my mind that Jon would not put a crown on his head. He would have bent the knee Stannis just like his father because he was Ned's truest son unlike Robb

3) Jon wouldn't trust Theon or Roose Bolton

Jon growing up as a bastard knows how to judge people's characters better than any of his trueborn siblings. He would know just how rotten and false Theon is and would keep him by his side instead of letting him free. I think he would have also gotten Balon on his side with a better envoy. He would have also never given Roose control of army as he knew Ned never trusted the man.

4) Jon would have traded Jaime

Unlike his brother, Jon wouldn't have abandoned his sisters in King's Landing. He would have traded them for Jaime and gotten them safely home.

5) Jon would have kept his oaths

Jon, like Ned, only besmirches his honor in times of need or when he needs to do so to save a family member. He would have kept any marriage arrangements and not be incredibly irresponsible and throw them away for some random fling

6) Equal education to Robb

We know from various recollections in Jon's PoV, that Ned taught Jon alongside Robb some lessons in how to rule. So Jon lacking education since he was a bastard would not be a problem at all. In fact, I would say from his time as LC he took the lessons to heart more than any of the Stark kids. He would have proven just as able (or perhaps more capable) as a military commander. And he would not have Cat around to give him some "smart" ideas

So all in all, I think that if Ned got Jon legitimized as a Stark before the events of the series, and he was the one in charge, he would have done quite well for the Starks.

Only person who would have stood in the way of that is the old bat unfortanately

1) The Tullys were not a poisonous influence, if anything, they were Robb's greatest ally, and without them he would have been severely fucked.

2) Stannis isn't the rightful King in the mind of anybody but Stannis at this point, Joffrey is, and after him, Tommen.

3) Agreed on him not trusting Roose and Theon, but Balon will still attack the North, even moreso if the North is not directly allied with the Riverlands as it means that it is weaker, and Balon's plan is to attack the weakest target.

4) OK, so Catelyn freeing Jaime in exchange for her daughters is bad, but Jon trading them is good? That's utter bull. Karstark still loses his shit and goes home.

5) Robb breaking his oath was only the last straw that caused Frey to betray him, as we see in ACoK, the Freys are already considering bending the knee after the Blackwater and the news that the Tyrells now back Joffrey.

6) Same education doesn't mean equal competence. Robb was gifted, and Jon has yet to do anything impressive as a commander.

[PatrickStormborn]

The Tullys were only a disadvantage because having the Riverlands as part of his kingdom meant Robb couldn't simply retreat north. If Jon would have bent the knee to Stannis, this wouldn't have been a problem, but he would certainly have a weaker position without the soldiers, castles and supplies provided by the Riverlords.

[The Fresh PtwP]

...How can you do better then undefeated?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

On one hand we have Jon who always tried his best to help people and he got stabbed because of that and because he couldn't communicate with the others. However that did stopped him from trying to do his best. On the other hand we have Robb who killed people because he was too stupid to think with his head and he didn't care. So yes I believe that Jon is far better than Robb.

Has he? Really? What about AGOT? The arrogant, spoiled Jon? Put in context. Jon lived longer (And may I say, had a fair amount of luck to remain so) and therefore, learned. Robb never got such chance.

Edit: Never mind, Robb was a fourteen-year old boy caught in a very complicated position with Jeyne Westerling. He couldn't grasp the political implication of his actions. Same as Jon with his situation in the Wall. Why is one "trying his best to help people" and other "too stupid"? Both failed at grasping the politics surrounding them. Robb also tried to do his best by Jeyne.

[Minsc]

Wait a minute. You mean that Robb single handedly won the battles? Because if he didn't he didn't won his battles by his own.

Robb had a larger impact in his multiple victories then Jon did in his one victory, in how he was always the primarily officer in charge unlike Jon who had Noye command the forces for a solid chunk of the battle. Additionally, his victories were achieved by him moving on the offensive while Jon had extremely defensive fortification of the Wall to help him hold back the Wildlings. Finally, he never had a surprise force just come out of nowhere to save his ass when losing a battle.

Has he? Really? What about AGOT? The arrogant, spoiled Jon? Put in context. Jon lived longer (And may I say, had a fair more of luck to remain so) and therefore, learned. Robb never got such chance.

Shit, even with his learning Jon was/is still as bad as Robb in not thinking with head and thus alienating his allies while going with various dumb ideas because he wants to play hero.

[JonisHenryTudor]

You know what bother's me about these sorts of threads. I get the desire to open some sort of discussion, but sometimes they feel like a political debate, athletics, debate etc. For example, if this person played the position, they would have done much better then the person who actually played. Hindsight works there, but not in literature.

The thing is, I am not sure that it makes sense to do that here unless of course you just want to have fun, and play around with things. The reality is that George wrote Robb a certain way, and he was meant to die. Having said that, his character was meant to have certain characteristics and qualities that would provoke the events leading up to his death and perhaps the loss of loyalty among his bannermen. If Jon were in Robb's place, Jon would have died as well because Jon would have been fulfilling a role already outlined by Martin. I am not sure hindsight works in literature, at least not in this way.

We can say that about every incident in the book, but it all comes back to one thing. Martin meant for things to happen a certain way, and nothing else really matters because the story needed to progress a specific way. We can argue that if Lyanna married RObert instead of Cersei (later on) such and such would be different, but that would change the entire plot and we would be essentially writing a new story.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Has he? Really? What about AGOT? The arrogant, spoiled Jon? Put in context. Jon lived longer (And may I say, had a fair more of luck to remain so) and therefore, learned. Robb never got such chance.

Arrogant and spoiled? He had one moment, mostly out of frustration and then he began to work with those around him.

Have you ever been in a scenario where you were "superior" in one way or another? Meaning education, knowledge, talent, etc? People who don't have what you have, have a tendency to be incredibly jealous. On the other hand, people who have superior capabilities often disregard those underneath them. Jon was disliked by some because unlike most of the NW's he chose to go, he didn't rape, steal, etc from someone. He is a superior swordsman than most there, and as a result it bothered some. At first in frustration he reacts, but Tyrion gives him a piece of advice and he takes it thus aiding those around him.

In addition, I think you have to consider Jon's life. Yes he was allowed to live in a noble household, but he was treated poorly by Cat and had the stigma of bastard on him as a result. He just wanted to prove himself.

If you want to see the epitome of arrogance.....see Dany....

[Minsc]

Arrogant and spoiled? He had one moment, mostly out of frustration and then he began to work with those around him.

It was hardly only one moment, seeing how Noye directly had to tell to put a stop to it or otherwise his fellow recruits might just attempt to kill him. Lets not forget his whiny temper tantrum after being made steward in how despite his supposed excellent skills reading people he couldn't pick up the obvious fact that his new position was a honor. Oh yeah, there was also the time he attempts to kill a superior officer over a simple insult. And so forth.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Shit, even with his learning Jon was/is still as bad as Robb in not thinking with head and thus alienating his allies while going with various dumb ideas because he wants to play hero.

Exactly. Jon still fails to grasp politics at his surroundings, and I don't see how his mistakes are about the nobility of his heart whilst Robb, that married to preserve Jeyne's honor, is stupidity. One could argue that Jon should be more pragmatic, hence, his death was also for "stupidity." I like Jon, but that's just too much.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Arrogant and spoiled? He had one moment, mostly out of frustration and then he began to work with those around him.

It was hardly only one moment, seeing how Noye directly had to tell to put a stop to it or otherwise his fellow recruits might just attempt to kill him. Lets not forget his whiny temper tantrum after being made steward in how despite his supposed excellent skills reading people he couldn't pick up the obvious fact that his new position was a honor. Oh yeah, there was also the time he attempts to kill a superior officer over a simple insult. And so forth.

[QueenSansaLannister]

I actually see Jon and Robb as being rather similar in personality. I think it would have ended badly with or without Robb as the King in the North. Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, and Walder Frey would've conspired to kill him anyway. And as a side note, I have to disagree with the "poisonous Tully influence." Brynden was Robb's best advisor and one of his best fighters and Edmure gave Riverrun to Robb. Sure, Catelyn made a bad decision regarding Jaime's release, but you seem to have a bias towards her that goes beyond this decision and colors your entire argument.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I actually see Jon and Robb as being rather similar in personality. I think it would have ended badly with or without Robb as the King in the North. Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, and Walder Frey would've conspired to kill him anyway. And as a side note, I have to disagree with the "poisonous Tully influence." Brynden was Robb's best advisor and one of his best fighters and Edmure gave Riverrun to Robb. Sure, Catelyn made a bad decision regarding Jaime's release, but you seem to have a bias towards her that goes beyond this decision and colors your entire argument.

This. I see both brothers as similar, to be honest.

[JonisHenryTudor]

It was hardly only one moment, seeing how Noye directly had to tell to put a stop to it or otherwise his fellow recruits might just attempt to kill him. Lets not forget his whiny temper tantrum after being made steward in how despite his supposed excellent skills reading people he couldn't pick up the obvious fact that his new position was a honor. Oh yeah, there was also the time he attempts to kill a superior officer over a simple insult. And so forth.

That isn't arrogance, that is frustration. Arrogance would be neglecting his duties after the emotional spell died down, he did not; he did well to perform his duties (as steward). This is no different from a kid who went out for QB on the football team and worked his butt off only to be told sorry you will actually be a wide receiver. The first emotional response is frustration, until you realize that your speed, etc would be better used going down field instead of standing in one spot.

Your examples are more in line with frustration, not arrogance. There is a huge difference between the two things. People do a lot of things out of frustration, but arrogance is feeling and acting superior to everyone around you. Jon, does not.

[Minsc]

That isn;t arrogance, that is frustration. Arrogance would be neglecting his duties after the emotional spell died down, he did not; he did well to perform his duties.

He only calmed down after Samwell felt the need to explain the obvious to him, thus realizing that the reason for his crying fit was actually a honor. Simply, the fact that he later does his duties doesn't mean he was arrogant and entitled. Especially, seeing how he does the pretty terribly with him both attacking an officer and attempting to desert later on.

[JonisHenryTudor]

He only calmed down after Samwell felt the need to explain the obvious to him, thus realizing that the reason for his crying fit was actually a honor. Simply, the fact that he later does his duties doesn't mean he was arrogant and entitled. Especially, seeing how he does the pretty terribly with him both attacking an officer and attempting to desert later on.

EXACTLY....An arrogant person would not do that. An arrogant person would have told Sam to piss off, and continued to act poorly. An arrogant person would not have listened, and he/she would have performed his duties poorly. Attempting to desert isn't a sign of arrogance he wanted to help his family. That makes him human, not arrogant.

[Hodor's Dragon]

I actually see Jon and Robb as being rather similar in personality. I think it would have ended badly with or without Robb as the King in the North. Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, and Walder Frey would've conspired to kill him anyway. And as a side note, I have to disagree with the "poisonous Tully influence." Brynden was Robb's best advisor and one of his best fighters and Edmure gave Riverrun to Robb. Sure, Catelyn made a bad decision regarding Jaime's release, but you seem to have a bias towards her that goes beyond this decision and colors your entire argument.

The alliance with the Tullys was of great value in many ways . . . but Cat made a lot more than one bad decision. Some of the Stark problems you can blame on Ned, some of them you can blame on Sansa, but when it comes to blame Cat has to get the lion's share.

[Roxy Carmichael]

That isn't arrogance, that is frustration. Arrogance would be neglecting his duties after the emotional spell died down, he did not; he did well to perform his duties (as steward). This is no different from a kid who went out for QB on the football team and worked his butt off only to be told sorry you will actually be a wide receiver. The first emotional response is frustration, until you realize that your speed, etc would be better used going down field instead of standing in one spot.

Your examples are more in line with frustration, not arrogance. There is a huge difference between the two things. People do a lot of things out of frustration, but arrogance is feeling and acting superior to everyone around you. Jon, does not.

Then Jon needs to find another outlet for his frustrations. He repeats this incident as LC when he beats down some new recruits and Rattleshirt (Mance) puts him in his place.

Jon's tendency is to take his frustrations out on those weaker than he is. In the last book he was not only more capable with a sword than the new guys, but also had the advantage of far superior rank.

He did it with Tyrion in the first book as well.