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R+L=J v 87


Stubby

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State, if you don't believe Jon is legitimate, you have your right to believe that. We're not excluding you out of the R+L=J community, well not sure about the others, but I don't. :)

Some of us here, including me, personally, believe that Jon is legitimate. I hope you give us due credit in our beliefs of taking that faith, as you take the faith of Jon not being legitimate.

You believe that 3KGs at TOJ were not guarding the king/heir to the throne, while some of us here believe that they did fulfill their vow as kingsguard.

Icefire...when believing begins thinking stops....I .dont believe much... and have faith in less than that

I am not trying to change your beliefs...or your thinking.

You believe that 3KGs at TOJ were not guarding the king/heir to the throne, IF

You can believe, that if you choose...

The statement is false....

3 KG (2 dead 1 wounded) fell on the the Trident defending King Aerys by fighting his enemies while Aerys was in King's Landing.

Ned was an enemy to Aerys and his family.

3 KG at the ToJ were fighting an enemy off the king.

6 KG took several months to get to Aerys after his KG was killed hand the king held captive in Duskendale.

If none of the above are false.... I may believe what you posted. but the statement is still false.

while some of us here believe that they did fulfill their vow as kingsguard.

This statement is true... regardless of your belief in it. It is true if Viserys or Jon was king.

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Here's a scene that caught my eye as I'm rereading. This is a stretch and I freely admit it. :)

I've seen this interpreted as symbolizing dead Drogo, and I think that's a valid guess too. But here's what's sticking with me:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

Well, there is also this from the analysis of the symbolism and foreshadowing of Ser Loras at the TotH:

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

- AGoT, Eddard VII

The original analysis is here (with an addition here). The point is that GRRM uses the linguistic similarities to paint a picture that evokes Rhaegar crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal. Which is to say, he might be tying the passage you quoted to the Ser Loras stuff with "flowering vines" + "twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots"—which in turn connects it to R+L=J, as you suggest.

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Well, there is also this from the analysis of the symbolism and foreshadowing of Ser Loras at the TotH:

- AGoT, Eddard VII

The original analysis is here (with an addition here). The point is that GRRM uses the linguistic similarities to paint a picture that evokes Rhaegar crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal. Which is to say, he might be tying the passage you quoted to the Ser Loras stuff with "flowering vines" + "twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots"—which in turn connects it to R+L=J, as you suggest.

I was debating which thread to post in :) I was worried it would be too off topic for the Blue Rosetta Stone, but seeing the vines passages next to each other, I think you may be right about a connection between the two.

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I was debating which thread to post in :) I was worried it would be too off topic for the Blue Rosetta Stone, but seeing the vines passages next to each other, I think you may be right about a connection between the two.

Well, I wouldn't mind if you posted it in my thread as well, since it seems to fit with the Ser Loras stuff I've posted recently.

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Here's a scene that caught my eye as I'm rereading. This is a stretch and I freely admit it. :)

I've seen this interpreted as symbolizing dead Drogo, and I think that's a valid guess too. But here's what's sticking with me:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

Not to mention in the House of the Undying Dany first doesn't call the flower a rose, but later does. GRRM could be doing a very similar thing in this passage.

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Not to mention in the House of the Undying Dany first doesn't call the flower a rose, but later does. GRRM could be doing a very similar thing in this passage.

GRRM definitely uses "flower" in place of rose on at least a couple of occasions, as well as others where it seems probable.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

This and the HotU are two of the "definite" examples.

"Lyanna was... fond of flowers."

- AGoT, Eddard I

This is a good example of "probable."

And of course you have Ser Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers. His House sigil is a golden rose on green, while his personal device is three golden roses on green. In other words, why not the Knight of Roses? Imo, GRRM is purposely blurring the lines between the two. Which he can do, since all roses are flowers.

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And of course you have Ser Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers. His House sigil is a golden rose on green, while his personal device is three golden roses on green. In other words, why not the Knight of Roses? Imo, GRRM is purposely blurring the lines between the two. Which he can do, since all roses are flowers.

And when it comes to Ser Loras, because of the Tyrell family sigil, it would make more sense to call him Knight of the Roses. But GRRM sticks Flowers on the end of his epithet instead, but would anyone associate him with anything other than a rose?

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And when it comes to Ser Loras, because of the Tyrell family sigil, it would make more sense to call him Knight of the Roses. But GRRM sticks Flowers on the end of his epithet instead, but would anyone associate him with anything other than a rose?

Exactly. By calling him Knight of the Flowers instead, GRRM can use Ser Loras for relatively subtle R+L=J allusions during the TotH. At least, subtler than he could if he had named him the Knight of Roses. So, during those parts, blue roses lingers just beneath the surface; it's subtext. This works well since, if it weren't, it would confuse the blue rose symbolism.

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Exactly. By calling him Knight of the Flowers instead, GRRM can use Ser Loras for relatively subtle R+L=J allusions during the TotH. At least, subtler than he could if he had named him the Knight of Roses. So, during those parts, blue roses lingers just beneath the surface; it's subtext. Also, if it weren't, it would confuse the blue rose symbolism.

And then we'd all be crackpotting that Loras is Rhaegar or something. ;)

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I just did a quick wiki on tPtwP



  • The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon)
  • Prince Joffrey was a factual bastard but a legal prince. So ends the a Prince can't be a bastard. (not to exclude or include jon is legitimate)
  • The prince is of the blood of the dragon.
  • Rhaegar's son is blood of the dragon
  • Born amidst smoke
  • The smoke from the war of Robert's rebellion
  • Born amidst salt.
  • The salt of his mother's tears over the loss of her lover/husband.
  • A bleeding star in the skies. (also mentioned is being born beneath a bleeding star)
  • Jon was born under (beneath) the protection of Arthur Dayne of starfall bleeding following the showdown also said all knights bleed it is a sign of their devotion
  • Possibly the return of dragons
  • dragons have returned
  • The dark eye falls upon the prince
  • The dark eye of death on Jon at the end of aDwD
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I just did a quick wiki on tPtwP

  • The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon)

  • Prince Joffrey was a factual bastard but a legal prince. So ends the a Prince can't be a bastard. (not to exclude or include jon is legitimate)

Of course a prince can be a bastard. That's never been in dispute. How many people thought Daeron II was actually the son of Nerys and Aemon the Dragonkinght? Yet he became King, though there were whispers. Joffery and Tommen all are bastards. A prince can be a bastard, sure. But this is about the Prince that was promised. And more importantly, it's about how Rhaegar would interpret it. Woudl Rhaegar really believe that TPTWP, born of his seed, and third head of the dragon should be a bastard? Did he believe that he should "dishonor" Lyanna by taking her to bed before marriage? Rhaegar's interpretation is what matters.

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Reminds me of this:

Later it was Drogon that showed up and the Dothraki grass bowed down to him. I'm of the opinion that Drogon represents Jon, the Dragon. As was the stone that she tripped on, that represents a hidden someone/something. Jon is the hidden dragon, the King, that she will bend the knee to.

Nice catch! Jon is a black dragon akin to LC Orwell being the Black Centaur.

Stones are used for hiding things, and a stone turning could point to a secret being revealed. The phrase "under one's foot" means someone is near you in a way that is difficult and prevents you from doing what you want to do. The stone turned causes to Dany to go to one knee, the action one performs to acknowledge fealty to a king. I think this foreshadows the reveal of R+L=J to Dany. Jon is near her as nephew by Rhaegar, which prevents her from doing what she wants to do, sit the IT and rule as Queen. Going to one knee could foreshadow her kneeling to Jon in submission, acknowledging him as king. Her crying out in pain is likely a clue to her reaction to the event.

The stone pulled from the mud could also point to that.

I think given the hints, Drogon will be Jon's mount.

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Of course a prince can be a bastard. That's never been in dispute. How many people thought Daeron II was actually the son of Nerys and Aemon the Dragonkinght? Yet he became King, though there were whispers. Joffery and Tommen all are bastards. A prince can be a bastard, sure. But this is about the Prince that was promised. And more importantly, it's about how Rhaegar would interpret it. Woudl Rhaegar really believe that TPTWP, born of his seed, and third head of the dragon should be a bastard? Did he believe that he should "dishonor" Lyanna by taking her to bed before marriage? Rhaegar's interpretation is what matters.

And don't forget that Lyanna most likely would have requested a marriage before he slept with her or as soon as she realized she was pregnant.

Nice catch! Jon is a black dragon akin to LC Orwell being the Black Centaur.

Stones are used for hiding things, and a stone turning could point to a secret being revealed. The phrase "under one's foot" means someone is near you in a way that is difficult and prevents you from doing what you want to do. The stone turned causes to Dany to go to one knee, the action one performs to acknowledge fealty to a king. I think this foreshadows the reveal of R+L=J to Dany. Jon is near her as nephew by Rhaegar, which prevents her from doing what she wants to do, sit the IT and rule as Queen. Going to one knee could foreshadow her kneeling to Jon in submission, acknowledging him as king. Her crying out in pain is likely a clue to her reaction to the event.

The stone pulled from the mud could also point to that.

I think given the hints, Drogon will be Jon's mount.

No!!!! I want Drogon to be Dany's mount. It seems that dragon riders don't ride other dragon riders dragons in this series, so unless Dany dies this seems unlikely.

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No!!!! I want Drogon to be Dany's mount. It seems that dragon riders don't ride other dragon riders dragons in this series, so unless Dany dies this seems unlikely.

.

I'm in the camp that believes Jon will warg Drogon; Dany is still Drogon's rider, but Jon's there too.

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Of course a prince can be a bastard. That's never been in dispute. How many people thought Daeron II was actually the son of Nerys and Aemon the Dragonkinght? Yet he became King, though there were whispers. Joffery and Tommen all are bastards. A prince can be a bastard, sure. But this is about the Prince that was promised. And more importantly, it's about how Rhaegar would interpret it. Woudl Rhaegar really believe that TPTWP, born of his seed, and third head of the dragon should be a bastard? Did he believe that he should "dishonor" Lyanna by taking her to bed before marriage? Rhaegar's interpretation is what matters.

That was exactly the point I wished to avoid. I was not asserting that R married L or not. I really did not want to speculate on what Rhaegar thought or attempt to tie it to Jon is legitimate.

Rhaegar's interpretation could have gone either way... which ever way he chose Jon fits.

Rhaegar wanted a son... it fits

Rhaegar wanted an heir... it fits

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No!!!! I want Drogon to be Dany's mount. It seems that dragon riders don't ride other dragon riders dragons in this series, so unless Dany dies this seems unlikely.

I never said Drogon wouldn't be Dany's mount, but that he will be Jon's in ADoS. I think if Dany challenges Jon to mount a dragon, Jon could possibly warg Drogon away from her.

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