UnViserion Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Rhaegal. If Jon doesn't ride/warg Drogon, I think Rhaegal is his dragon (for the obvious name reference) Viserion will be ridden by Aegon Brightflame, as he is a descendent of the previous owner of the gold, white egg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 That was exactly the point I wished to avoid. I was not asserting that R married L or not. I really did not want to speculate on what Rhaegar thought or attempt to tie it to Jon is legitimate. Rhaegar's interpretation could have gone either way... which ever way he chose Jon fits. Rhaegar wanted a son... it fits Rhaegar wanted an heir... it fits Ha! False, Rhaegar was undoubtedly looking for a daughter to be the Visenya to his Aegon and Rhaenys :smug: :owned: :owned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teej6 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I'm in the camp that believes Jon will warg Drogon; Dany is still Drogon's rider, but Jon's there too.I feel if anyone is going to be warging a dragon, it's going to be Bran. Jon will most likely be a dragon rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I feel if anyone is going to be warging a dragon, it's going to be Bran. Jon will most likely be a dragon rider. Oh I think Bran will warg a dragon too. But will it be a fire-breathing one...hmmm... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Ha! False, Rhaegar was undoubtedly looking for a daughter to be the Visenya to his Aegon and Rhaenys :smug: IN RESPONSE TO That was exactly the point I wished to avoid. I was not asserting that R married L or not. I really did not want to speculate on what Rhaegar thought or attempt to tie it to Jon is legitimate. Rhaegar's interpretation could have gone either way... which ever way he chose Jon fits. Rhaegar wanted a son... it fits Rhaegar wanted an heir... it fits Original Post The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon) Prince Joffrey was a factual bastard but a legal prince. So ends the a Prince can't be a bastard. (not to exclude or include jon is legitimate AEMON did not discover the mistranslation until after Rhaegar had died...."all this time we (Rhaegar INCLUDED) were looking for a prince" :owned: :owned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 You might be the worst at using the quote function in the history of forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Here's a scene that caught my eye as I'm rereading. This is a stretch and I freely admit it. :) I've seen this interpreted as symbolizing dead Drogo, and I think that's a valid guess too. But here's what's sticking with me: The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow). The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana. So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine? NICE! I got a picture from google image of blue roses in a vine. Also, here is the moment when Ned enters the throne room upon arriving at Kings Landing, season 1 episode 3. I took the opportunity to catch Ned with the blue rose and 'liana' in the background. ^_^ http://i.imgur.com/IOcsiCz.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 You might be the worst at using the quote function in the history of forums. Don't pick on someone's strengths! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 NICE! I got a picture from google image of blue roses in a vine. Also, here is the moment when Ned enters the throne room upon arriving at Kings Landing, season 1 episode 3. I took the opportunity to catch Ned with the blue rose and 'liana' in the background. ^_^ http://i.imgur.com/IOcsiCz.jpg I love that they keep using the blue rose in the throne room. There are some other instances where it's *very* clear. Like when Varys and LIttlefinger are having little tet-a-tet's. It's framed right between them. And, of course, when Dany is walking through the throne room (with all the snow!!) at one point she's walking right toward the blue-rose panel. Clear as day. ETA: for example.... http://gameofthronesrp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/543279_305164902904050_240720222_n.jpg ETA#2 or this one http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/841000/841889_1317074293092_full.jpg Also, now that I'm looking at the pics again....the RED fire burst directly behind the blue flower has SEVEN points. I might be putting too much into this, but it makes me think of J. Stargaryen's Rhaegar's rubies theory. We're all waiting on the 7th ruby (blood of the Targ) to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Ha! False, Rhaegar was undoubtedly looking for a daughter to be the Visenya to his Aegon and Rhaenys :smug: If Rhaegar had a third child with Elia, I think you would be right--he would expect a daughter as his third child. He thought at one point that Aegon was TPTWP, and he would expect the three heads of the dragon to emulate Aegon I and his sisters. At one point Rhaegar thought that he, himself, was TPTWP, so we know that Rhaegar is capable of changing his own interpretation of the prophesy. Once he decided to go off with Lyanna, after Elia could have no more children, it appears that he might have changed his plans. In the HOTU vision, he refers to Aegon as TPTWP and say that he has a song, the "Song of Ice and Fire." But Aegon has no connection to Ice. Once Rhaegar met Lyanna and decided to run off with her to produce what Rhaegar believed would be the third head of the dragon, Rhaegar also likely realized that Lyanna was Ice to his Fire, and thus it would be their son and not Aegon who would be TPTWP. Rhaegar would have had no reason to question the translation as "prince" (Aemon realizes the gender issue in the translation much later and no reason to think Rhaegar would have thought of this issue), so Rhaegar likely would have assumed that TPTWP would be male. Logically, Rhaegar likely concluded that rather than Aegon being TPTWP, it would be his son with Lyanna would would be the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). Thus, when Lyanna got pregnant, Rhaegar probably expected a boy and not a girl. He expected The Prince That Was Promised to have the Song of Ice and Fire--and on that point, Rhaegar was right. Jon was born a boy and likely is TPTWP, the Song of Ice and Fire personified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 AEMON did not discover the mistranslation until after Rhaegar had died...."all this time we (Rhaegar INCLUDED) were looking for a prince" But Rhaegar already had his prince. However, the dragon must have three heads. And the three heads represented Aegon I and his sisters, right? So a Visenya seems most likely what he was expecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 But Rhaegar already had his prince. However, the dragon must have three heads. And the three heads represented Aegon I and his sisters, right? So a Visenya seems most likely what he was expecting. I just addressed this issue above (post #90). As stated in more detail in that post, once Rhaegar decided to have the third head with Lyanna, most likely he expected their child (no longer Aegon) to be TPTWP and thus a boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon Prince Joffrey was a factual bastard but a legal prince. So ends the a Prince can't be a bastard. (not to exclude or include jon is legitimate There is another source for a male child that cannot make the mistake of gender, the woods witch. Maester Aemon is deluding himself, because he knows of only Daenerys and himself as surviving Targaryens, and he isn't descended from Aerys and Rhaella. He knows that he isn't the one that is going to save the world from the threat, so he has to hope that Daenerys is (by an imagined mistranslation), or cede. As a bastard, Joffrey is not a prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 But Rhaegar already had his prince. However, the dragon must have three heads. And the three heads represented Aegon I and his sisters, right? So a Visenya seems most likely what he was expecting. We were speaking of Jon in relation to the prophecy. Using "son" over "child" is hardly a grevious error or oversight. The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon) Prince Joffrey was a factual bastard but a legal prince. So ends the a Prince can't be a bastard. (not to exclude or include jon is legitimate) Princess Myrcella was a factual bastard but a legal princess. So ends the Princess can't be a bastard. (not to exclude or include that Rhaegar's daughter is leitimate) That would have cleared the whole thing up at the beginning. Now Rhaegar's concern with the prophecy is covered either way. It also excludes the legitimate vs illegitimate argument. (Which I had hoped to avoid) I was not asserting legitimacy or not. I was attempting to show Jon fits the prophecy. It requires R plus L equals J only. The legitimacy is neither here nor there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 There is another source for a male child that cannot make the mistake of gender, the woods witch. Maester Aemon is deluding himself, because he knows of only Daenerys and himself as surviving Targaryens, and he isn't descended from Aerys and Rhaella. He knows that he isn't the one that is going to save the world from the threat, so he has to hope that Daenerys is (by an imagined mistranslation), or cede. The I asserted that Jon fits all requirements of the prophecy. The birth of a male child - a prince. (erroneous according to Maester Aemon) Prince Joffrey was a factual bastard but a legal prince. So ends the a Prince can't be a bastard. (not to exclude or include jon is legitimate) The prince is of the blood of the dragon. Rhaegar's son is blood of the dragon Born amidst smoke The smoke from the war of Robert's rebellion Born amidst salt. The salt of his mother's tears over the loss of her lover/husband. A bleeding star in the skies. (also mentioned is being born beneath a bleeding star) Jon was born under (beneath) the protection of (bleeding following the showdown also said all knights bleed...) Arthur Dayne of starfall Possibly the return of dragons dragons have returned The dark eye falls upon the prince The dark eye of death on Jon at the end of aDwD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I love that they keep using the blue rose in the throne room. There are some other instances where it's *very* clear. Like when Varys and LIttlefinger are having little tet-a-tet's. It's framed right between them. And, of course, when Dany is walking through the throne room (with all the snow!!) at one point she's walking right toward the blue-rose panel. Clear as day. ETA: for example.... http://gameofthronesrp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/543279_305164902904050_240720222_n.jpg ETA#2 or this one http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/841000/841889_1317074293092_full.jpg Also, now that I'm looking at the pics again....the RED fire burst directly behind the blue flower has SEVEN points. I might be putting too much into this, but it makes me think of J. Stargaryen's Rhaegar's rubies theory. We're all waiting on the 7th ruby (blood of the Targ) to be found. I love that they keep doing that with the rose too. Let's just keep that mystery fresh in everyone's minds. ;) And I love the ruby theory. In fact, I love the ruby theory so much that, while I used to think Tyrion was going to turn out to be a Targ, I kind of think now that maybe he isn't, simply because that messes up the numbers. Unless you don't count Rhaego because he was stillborn. But then you'd still be left with "We are still waiting on the sixth and seventh," which is a lot less elegant. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rhaegar stark Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I love that they keep using the blue rose in the throne room. There are some other instances where it's *very* clear. Like when Varys and LIttlefinger are having little tet-a-tet's. It's framed right between them. And, of course, when Dany is walking through the throne room (with all the snow!!) at one point she's walking right toward the blue-rose panel. Clear as day. ETA: for example.... http://gameofthronesrp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/543279_305164902904050_240720222_n.jpg ETA#2 or this one http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/841000/841889_1317074293092_full.jpg Also, now that I'm looking at the pics again....the RED fire burst directly behind the blue flower has SEVEN points. I might be putting too much into this, but it makes me think of J. Stargaryen's Rhaegar's rubies theory. We're all waiting on the 7th ruby (blood of the Targ) to be found. and here i thought they didnt show most of the visions on the show .... they took the time to show Blue rose at the Wall afterall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 and here i thought they didnt show most of the visions on the show .... they took the time to show Blue rose at the Wall afterall I like that pull . . . I may need to break out the disks and look very carefully at the HotU sequence, critically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Much has been made of Hightower's "we swore a vow" in relation to the KG purpose at the ToJ. It's meaning to the reader as a possible clue or proof of Jon's legitimacy has been covered pretty well. I post it as what did Hightower intend it to mean to Ned. (If they were guarding the king, either Ned would find out or he would never know.) Hightower knew what had happened to Ned's father and brother. He knew the Starks claimed Lyanna was kidnapped. eHightower knew exactly why Ned was there. I pose that Hightower wanted to tell Ned why they were there. They were not murderers or kidnappers they did not believe in what Aerys had done. They were not fighting Ned for the justice ot their cause or the justice of theirs. They were fighting because they swore a vow. Hightower told Ned: We are not bad guys and we do not consider you bad guys. We are just two groups of men doing what honor requires of us. That explains... GRRM's ---Ser Gerald explained--- Ned's "sadly said" is an acknowledgement that Gerald was right... there would be fight against evil at the ToJ. There would only be the deaths of good men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rhaegar stark Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I like that pull . . . I may need to break out the disks and look very carefully at the HotU sequence, critically. i did that when i came to know about RL carved in wood when sam and jon talking maybe i too will take a look at that again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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