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R+L=J v 87


Stubby

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Some interesting quotes that came up on another thread today:

LF's duel with Brandon:

And Rhaegars final fight with Robert:

It is my suggestion that these two quotes might be another hint that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

That LF loved Catelyn when he was a young boy is unquestionable (that it turned into some creepy obsession later on, is a discussion for another place). But the similarity between these two events seems to be too much to be a coincidence, so perhaps it's a hint that Rhaegar truly loved Lyanna.

Credit for finding the quotes goes to @the marsh king

That's a great find, and given Martins penchant for telling a story or events through other stories, as well as Selmys musings, I think it's more evidence.

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Can someone direct me to where someone has posted all the evidence that R+L=J? especially about the significance of blue rose and how it is unlikely/impossible that he is Ashara Dayne's son.

ALL the evidence? I don't know that we have a complete evidence list..?

Should we compile a list of all the evidence? In case this question comes up again. It would be a really long post...

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iam not into that Jon being warging or riding Drogon (some believe he can ride drogon by killing Danny)



because there is a connection established between Danny and Drogon and she doesnt need anyone warging her dragon ..



jon will be riding Rhaegal which will solidify he is Rhaegar's son and we still dont know what happened during Blood magic MMD did ...because i remember something about shadows dancing and a wolf shadow inside the hut alll were dancing



so anyone of her dragon could got Jon's mother in them


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iam not into that Jon being warging or riding Drogon (he can ride drogon by killing Danny)

because there is a connection established between Danny and Drogon and she doesnt need anyone warging her dragon ..

jon will be riding Rhaegal which will solidify he is Rhaegar's son and we still dont know what happened during Blood magic MMD did ...because i remember something about shadows dancing and a wolf shadow inside the hut alll were dancing

Jon, unknowingly was able to skinchange one of the dragons for a brief moment, he was able to see through one of the dragon's eyes as they fly in the middle of flames. It was probably the dragons during their hunting for food, before Dany locked up Rhaegal and Viserion in the catacombs,

“Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

Jon was awake, talking with Val, he was not dreaming this. Could it be that Jon was able to skinchange one of the dragons, being so far away from where he is, similar to Arya with Nymeria? With Ghost, Jon can feel and can sense what Ghost is feeling/sensing right as he is awake. What if he can also do that with the dragons?

And I guess, one could also conclude that he was simply, unknowingly, foreshadowing/foretelling future events when dragons will be flying and there will be sea of flames of where he is standing now at the wall.
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Jon, unknowingly was able to skinchange one of the dragons for a brief moment, he was able to see through one of the dragon's eyes as they fly in the middle of flames. It was probably the dragons during their hunting for food, before Dany locked up Rhaegal and Viserion in the catacombs,

“Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

Jon was awake, talking with Val, he was not dreaming this. Could it be that Jon was able to skinchange one of the dragons, being so far away from where he is, similar to Arya with Nymeria? With Ghost, Jon can feel and can sense what Ghost is feeling/sensing right as he is awake. What if he can also do that with the dragons?

And I guess, one could also conclude that he was simply, unknowingly, foreshadowing/foretelling future events when dragons will be flying and there will be sea of flames of where he is standing now at the wall.

i would try to take that as a Foreshadowing but it is possible he may have power to Warg the dragon but iam mostly against the idea that he will warg Drogon or ride Drogon ...because for me Danny and drogon share bond even when he was just a egg ...so i dont see him taking it from her

he may warg his rhaegal because he will not be having more time to establish a bonding with him instead he can just warg and bring him into his control

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Thank you so much for pointing this out! I just finished watching it and it was wonderful.

Yes, history, heart, greyness of character, and the human experience.

I especially liked the part when he observed that if we answered honestly, we have all done things we're ashamed of.

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I started re-reading some of Ned's chapters, specifically for R+L = J.



This exchange between Robert and Ned pretty much jumped off the page and slapped me. (also something that I've probably read over many times and never thought of in any special way)



Robert and Ned are heading down into the crypts to pay respects to Lyanna when this is said by Ned





"Kings are a rare sight in the north."


Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!"



Ned I, aGoT.



Ah. Ha. Ah. Ha.


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I started re-reading some of Ned's chapters, specifically for R+L = J.

This exchange between Robert and Ned pretty much jumped off the page and slapped me. (also something that I've probably read over many times and never thought of in any special way)

Robert and Ned are heading down into the crypts to pay respects to Lyanna when this is said by Ned

Ned I, aGoT.

Ah. Ha. Ah. Ha.

i thought everyone here had known that ...hmmm my bad i should have posted that :laugh: ...

it was Snow where the upper case S used caught me

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Yes, history, heart, greyness of character, and the human experience.

I especially liked the part when he observed that if we answered honestly, we have all done things we're ashamed of.

I did too. I also liked how he said that he doesn't believe in heroes, but that he does believe in heroic acts. :)

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i came across this while reading GOT when Sam is first introduced





“I’m Jon Snow, Ned Stark’s bastard, of Winterfell.”



Samwell Tarly nodded. “I … if you want, you can call me Sam. My mother calls me Sam.”


“You can call him Lord Snow,” Pyp said as he came up to join them. “You don’t want to know what his mother calls him.”



maybe he did have some other name and lyanna named him and the name jon was given by eddard


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i came across this while reading GOT when Sam is first introduced

maybe he did have some other name and lyanna named him and the name jon was given by eddard

Pretty sure that was just a typical Pyp-joke.

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I was just checking through an SSM and found this:



It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generations. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either.



From the way GRRM speaks, one would expect him to say that Lyanna had no children too. But he said Lyanna is simply dead with no mention of her possible children.



As a side note;



Brandon died before he had sons (he may father a son after he dies, cough Domeric cough cough).



Benjen joined the NW which means he doesn’t have descendants. But this also means he might father a bastard before he takes the black (if he was old enough, which I have no doubt).


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I was just checking through an SSM and found this:

It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generations. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either.

From the way GRRM speaks, one would expect him to say that Lyanna had no children too. But he said Lyanna is simply dead with no mention of her possible children.

As a side note;

Brandon died before he had sons (he may father a son after he dies, cough Domeric cough cough).

Benjen joined the NW which means he doesn’t have descendants. But this also means he might father a bastard before he takes the black (if he was old enough, which I have no doubt).

:cheers:

I think that's also the admission that Brandon could have have a daughter (stillborn maybe :cool4: )

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I was just checking through an SSM and found this:

It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generations. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either.

From the way GRRM speaks, one would expect him to say that Lyanna had no children too. But he said Lyanna is simply dead with no mention of her possible children.

As a side note;

Brandon died before he had sons (he may father a son after he dies, cough Domeric cough cough).

Benjen joined the NW which means he doesn’t have descendants. But this also means he might father a bastard before he takes the black (if he was old enough, which I have no doubt).

The way he says that quote seems very deliberate. "Brandon died before he had sons...and and Lyanna is dead too." Could have just said "Brandon and Lyanna are dead and left no children."

Nice find!

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“Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

Jon was awake, talking with Val, he was not dreaming this. Could it be that Jon was able to skinchange

It may be just me, but at the time I learned English, - almost - was a negative.

I almost made it - well, I did not made it.

I can almost see - I do not see.

Jon does not see, he has no such vision, he is simply thinking or daydreaming it up.

No skinchanging happens.

That's so very dissappointing, but cannot be helped.

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i came across this while reading GOT when Sam is first introduced

maybe he did have some other name and lyanna named him and the name jon was given by eddard

I think this is probably a good catch. If Lyanna did give Jon a name, I think Aegon is a (surprisingly?) strong candidate.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

- ACoK, Daenerys IV (HotU)

I think it's safe to say that Rhaegar wrongly attributed the PtwP as well as the SoIaF to his son with Elia. Both are better fits for Jon (or even Dany in the case of the PtwP). Normally we just chalk it up to Rhaegar misinterpreting prophecy again. However, there's a good chance he's got the details right, but applied them to the wrong son. Well, one of those details is the name Aegon. "What better name for a king?"

I think we all assume Rhaegar told Lyanna these things. She was a smart girl, and would likely have realized that not all was lost when Aegon was murdered. That her son's birth presented a second chance to fulfill the prophecy, or that maybe it was meant for him all along. If she believed Rhaegar had the details right, but applied them to the wrong son, Lyanna would possess a strong motive for naming her son Aegon, too. "What better name for a king?"

---

If Jon's true name is Aegon, there is a fair chance he could turn out to be the seventh King Aegon, following fAegon as Aegon VI in a short stint, or as a pretender. Which, btw, could provide a possible spin on the Elder Brother's famous quote: “Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

GRRM has already introduced the idea of rival Aegons in TPatQ and TRP. Aegon the Elder ruled first briefly as Aegon II (even numbered=bad Aegons), and was succeeded by the Younger as Aegon III (odd numbered=good Aegons). Foreshadowing for Aegons VI and VII? Interestingly, Aegon III was known for always dressing in black.

Even born as an Aegon, and assuming he becomes the seventh one to be king, I don't think it's a slam dunk by any means that it will be as a member of House Targaryen. In fact, I would still bet on a third dynasty. Remember the Trident. Targaryen, Baratheon(Lannister), Snow/Stark.

Along these lines, both Jon and Rhaegar are strongly associated with the color black, but whereas Rhaegar's black plate armor was highlighted by his red rubies, Jon has lots of symbolic ties to the color blue.

the Targaryen prince armored all in black. - AGoT, Eddard I

“The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color.- AGoT, Jon II

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If Jon's true name is Aegon, there is a fair chance he could turn out to be the seventh King Aegon, following fAegon as Aegon VI in a short stint, or as a pretender. Which, btw, could provide a possible spin on the Elder Brother's famous quote: “Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

GRRM has already introduced the idea of rival Aegons in TPatQ and TRP. Aegon the Elder ruled first briefly as Aegon II (even numbered=bad Aegons), and was succeeded by the Younger as Aegon III (odd numbered=good Aegons). Foreshadowing for Aegons VI and VII? Interestingly, Aegon III was known for always dressing in black.

Even born as an Aegon, and assuming he becomes the seventh one to be king, I don't think it's a slam dunk by any means that it will be as a member of House Targaryen. In fact, I would still bet on a third dynasty. Remember the Trident. Targaryen, Baratheon(Lannister), Snow/Stark.

Along these lines, both Jon and Rhaegar are strongly associated with the color black, but whereas Rhaegar's black plate armor was highlighted by his red rubies, Jon has lots of symbolic ties to the color blue.

You keep coming up with things that blow my mind. :cheers: :bowdown:

I love the connection back to the rubies--and I agree; fAegon will sit the IT for a short time as Aegon, 6th of his Name.

And the last odd numbered Ageon was "Egg;" when we meet him, he's a prince (deliberately) hiding in plain sight.

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