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How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

What function idoes Jon burning his hand in combating the wights attacking mormont?

A boken bone or a stab wound would have been equally heroic. The burn on Jon's hand was inserted to cast doubt on his Targaryen blood. Reading further one discovers that targs are not immune to fire but resistant.

The same scene can then be seen as proof Jon is a Targ because on another the injury would have been much worse.

GRRM has closed the door and then opened it up again.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriage but have not practiced it for hundreds of years.

Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Jon being born by then and legitimate would explain their presence. However they never state what they are doing there. They end up fighting Ned a Targaryen enemy but leave out which Targaryen Ned is enemy too.---Leaving "we swore a vow" as a point of speculation

Again GRRM opens a door and apparently closes it only to possibly open it again.,

+
Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

We have no evidence of why the KG were at the ToJ, There is no specific order from Aerys or Rgaegar given. They never state their purpose.

GRRM left this wide open for speculation. The direction of the speculation leads to the desired conclusion.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is obvious because GRRM inserted all the questions and left them unanswered,

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. When says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, he is either referring to Jon's mother or the name Robert was looking for. If Robert had simply stated "who was your bastard's mother" and Ned simply replied "Wylla" there would be no question. If Ned told Cersei Jon's mother was a Dayne, again the question would be closed. Again GRRM leaves a door open that he could have shut for good.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are?
Why would GRRM cast the issue in so much doubt if he did not intend it to matter.?

Who cares if he's legitimate?

People that do not understand that "legitimate" can mean what ever somebody wants it to mean.

And people who want Jon to be king.

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Well, there's been a lot of speculation about Jon Snow's possible Targaryen birthname, and I love the elaborate articles I just read above. Still I cannot get Aemon Targaryen out of my mind.



Maester Aemon tells Jon, this is his test. Jon runs away. He thinks to himself:


But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen.

AGoT 70 Jon IX


(highlighting the name is my own markup, it is plain text in the book)



So he does not turn back, and he is not Aemon Targaryen either.



Then he turns back...

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Well, there's been a lot of speculation about Jon Snow's possible Targaryen birthname, and I love the elaborate articles I just read above. Still I cannot get Aemon Targaryen out of my mind.

Maester Aemon tells Jon, this is his test. Jon runs away. He thinks to himself:

AGoT 70 Jon IX

(highlighting the name is my own markup, it is plain text in the book)

So he does not turn back, and he is not Aemon Targaryen either.

Then he turns back...

Good find :thumbsup:

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snip

Really interesting. I have always found the idea of Jon's real name being Aegon pretty weak because really who name his two sons by the same name, that's stupid, even if Aegon the seventh has a nice ring to it. But you made me rethink it.

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You keep coming up with things that blow my mind. :cheers: :bowdown:

I love the connection back to the rubies--and I agree; fAegon will sit the IT for a short time as Aegon, 6th of his Name.

And the last odd numbered Ageon was "Egg;" when we meet him, he's a prince (deliberately) hiding in plain sight.

Thanks. :cheers: :)

Well, there's been a lot of speculation about Jon Snow's possible Targaryen birthname, and I love the elaborate articles I just read above. Still I cannot get Aemon Targaryen out of my mind.

Maester Aemon tells Jon, this is his test. Jon runs away. He thinks to himself:

AGoT 70 Jon IX

(highlighting the name is my own markup, it is plain text in the book)

So he does not turn back, and he is not Aemon Targaryen either.

Then he turns back...

If Rhaegar gave Jon a Targaryen name, Aemon might be the most likely option. If it was Lyanna though, I think the likelihood of Aemon drops significantly.

Really interesting. I have always found the idea of Jon's real name being Aegon pretty weak because really who name his two sons by the same name, that's stupid, even if Aegon the seventh has a nice ring to it. But you made me rethink it.

Thanks. I basically had the same thoughts as you on the subject. I didn't remember the passage that jon Rhaegar stark quoted until I read his post. When I did, the Aegon possibility occurred to me.

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If an interrupted dream under the influence of milk of the poppy..places the exact time of Lyanna's death as immediately after the showdown and a sky filled with blood and blue rose petals....


and


If Lyanna screaming from the tower later that day becomes Lyanna with her strength gone to fever barely able to whisper


and


If bed of blood refers to childbirth and up to 6 weeks after childbirth


and


If Rhaegar was the first Targ to engage in polygamy in living memory..




Jon's Targaryen name was "Robert"



because the people who assert all the above "Ifs" tend to believe that Robert was the biggest thing on Lyanna's mind and Rhaegar was dead before "Robert" was born....


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Well, there's been a lot of speculation about Jon Snow's possible Targaryen birthname, and I love the elaborate articles I just read above. Still I cannot get Aemon Targaryen out of my mind.

Maester Aemon tells Jon, this is his test. Jon runs away. He thinks to himself:

AGoT 70 Jon IX

(highlighting the name is my own markup, it is plain text in the book)

So he does not turn back, and he is not Aemon Targaryen either.

Then he turns back...

Nice one! :D

If Rhaegar gave Jon a Targaryen name, Aemon might be the most likely option. If it was Lyanna though, I think the likelihood of Aemon drops significantly.

Perhaps Rhaegar told Lyanna about his family, and about his close friendship with Aemon (even though they lived very far apart). In such a case, Lyanna might have considered Aemon as a Targaryen name, since if Rhaegar had been telling her about any male Targaryen, it would have been Aemon, and Rhaegar and perhaps Lyanna would most likely have been expecting the child to have been a girl, leaving Lyanna unprepared to come up with a boys name after the birth.

If an interrupted dream under the influence of milk of the poppy..places the exact time of Lyanna's death as immediately after the showdown and a sky filled with blood and blue rose petals....

and

If Lyanna screaming from the tower later that day becomes Lyanna with her strength gone to fever barely able to whisper

and

If bed of blood refers to childbirth and up to 6 weeks after childbirth

and

If Rhaegar was the first Targ to engage in polygamy in living memory..

Jon's Targaryen name was "Robert"

because the people who assert all the above "Ifs" tend to believe that Robert was the biggest thing on Lyanna's mind and Rhaegar was dead before "Robert" was born....

Ehm.... State one good reason why Lyanna would possibly name her child Robert...

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There is no good reason that Lyanna should name her child Robert...



just like there is no good reason for anyone to accept.



an interrupted dream under the influence of milk of the poppy..places the exact time of Lyanna's death as immediately after the showdown and a sky filled with blood and blue rose petals....


or


Lyanna screaming from the tower later that day becomes Lyanna with her strength gone to fever barely able to whisper


or


bed of blood refers to childbirth and up to 6 weeks after childbirth


or


Rhaegar was the first Targ to engage in polygamy in living memory..




If you really like accepting things for no good reason....



why exclude Robert


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an interrupted dream under the influence of milk of the poppy..

It's an old dream. As in, he's had it before. As in, not with the milk of the poppy. As in there are fantastical elements to it (like all dreams) but the crux of the dream is the same. Cause it's old. And in the dream there were as they were in life.

There are no blue rose petals in the sky with blood. The conversation might be a little fantastical, but it's the message behind the conversation that's important. What they say is a reflection of what happened.

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It's an old dream. As in, he's had it before. As in, not with the milk of the poppy. As in there are fantastical elements to it (like all dreams) but the crux of the dream is the same. Cause it's old. And in the dream there were as they were in life.

There are no blue rose petals in the sky with blood. The conversation might be a little fantastical, but it's the message behind the conversation that's important. What they say is a reflection of what happened.

page 410 paperback Ned had been in bed for 6 days...page 412---- Ned "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppv"--

I get that the ToJ scene is accurate... and accept it..

The Lyanna screaming Eddard... when she only ever calls him ned in memory.... calls the accuracy of that in to question... especially since he is woken up by somebody calling him Eddard.... Lord Eddard...

This is the only scene used to place Lyanna's death as immediately after the showdown.

pg 410 a storm of rose petals flew across a blood-streaked sky. blue as the eyes of death... then there is Ned's stating i promise... that I promise is then linked back to Ned promised and she gave up her grip on life.

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There is no good reason that Lyanna should name her child Robert...

just like there is no good reason for anyone to accept.

an interrupted dream under the influence of milk of the poppy..places the exact time of Lyanna's death as immediately after the showdown and a sky filled with blood and blue rose petals....

or

Lyanna screaming from the tower later that day becomes Lyanna with her strength gone to fever barely able to whisper

or

bed of blood refers to childbirth and up to 6 weeks after childbirth

or

Rhaegar was the first Targ to engage in polygamy in living memory..

If you really like accepting things for no good reason....

why exclude Robert

No one but you is throwing around "up to 6 weeks after childbirth"...

And Rhaegar was the first Targaryen to engage in a polygamous marriage... But not the first Targaryen, nor are there any hints that it was made illegal.

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page 410 paperback Ned had been in bed for 6 days...page 412---- Ned "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppv"--

I get that the ToJ scene is accurate... and accept it..

The Lyanna screaming Eddard... when she only ever calls him ned in memory.... calls the accuracy of that in to question... especially since he is woken up by somebody calling him Eddard.... Lord Eddard...

This is the only scene used to place Lyanna's death as immediately after the showdown.

You misunderstand me. I mean, he's had the dream before without the milk of the poppy. The time he's dreaming in aGoT is not some sudden milk of the poppy dream.

When else would Lyanna's death happen is not after the showdown? Do you think she was alive and Ned and Lyanna just stayed in the tower for a few days?

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page 410 paperback Ned had been in bed for 6 days...page 412---- Ned "my head is still heavy with milk og the poppv"--

I get that the ToJ scene is accurate... and accept it..

The Lyanna screaming Eddard... when she only ever calls him ned in memory.... calls the accuracy of that in to question... especially since he is woken up by somebody calling him Eddard.... Lord Eddard...

This is the only scene used to place Lyanna's death as immediately after the showdown.

That use of Eddard is the person who is trying to wake Ned up.. Ned's dream merges his dream about Lyanna with hearing "Eddard!" instead of "Ned".

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.

They had found him... that doesn't suggest that they had all been at the tower for some time after the fight against the KG.. it suggests little passing of time, IMO. If they had all been inside ToJ for some time, there would be no need to find Ned, they would have known where he was already.

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That use of Eddard is the person who is trying to wake Ned up.. Ned's dream merges his dream about Lyanna with hearing "Eddard!" instead of "Ned".

They had found him... that doesn't suggest that they had all been at the tower for some time after the fight against the KG.. it suggests little passing of time, IMO. If they had all been inside ToJ for some time, there would be no need to find Ned, they would have known where he was already.

They found HIM (Ned)... not Ned and Howland found Lyanna (HER). Finding Lyanna had to come earlier. THEY is not Howland Reed and Ned either....

Who are they?

If they found Lyanna... yes it would suggest they had not been in the tower for that long.... but they didn't.... finding Ned holding the dead woman's hand.... does not equal discovered Ned's location. I found you with your pants down... does not mean I did not know where you were... it means i did not know what you were doing.

It suggests enough passage of time that Lyanna's location was discovered. then blank for an undetermined amount of time in which a fever takes Lyannas strength... then Lyanna dies and Ned remains with her... and then an undetermined amount of time later They find him with her.

They means either there were servants or people in the ToJ or more of Ned's people had arrived.

So 2 undetermined amounts of time and an unspecified "they" suggests?

By the way in this scene the showdown is not mentioned in any way...

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I am so NOT getting pulled back into this madness....

GRRM said that Edward gave Jon his name, BUT it is telling that there had been a Stark king by the name of Jon.

Wonder what made Ned choose that name?

Nice. I think the king is a part; the other might be tribute to Jon Arryn, the man who raised Ned like a father, even if he was not Ned's biological father.

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You misunderstand me. I mean, he's had the dream before without the milk of the poppy. The time he's dreaming in aGoT is not some sudden milk of the poppy dream.

When else would Lyanna's death happen is not after the showdown? Do you think she was alive and Ned and Lyanna just stayed in the tower for a few days?

It was after the showdown...

we just have no way of knowing how long after the showdown. It is safe to assume Ned found Lyanna soon after the showdown. Lyanna was giving birth "bed of blood" when Ned found her. Then, Lyanna later died of a fever.

I accept the 3 to 10 days fever explanation. She died 3 to 10 days after giving birth... possibly sooner-- However that is neither here nor there...

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