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R+L=J v 87


Stubby

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Is it a certain thing that Jon's birth name wasn't Jon? I always figured maybe Rhaegar named him after his friend Jon Connington.

GRRM has stated that it was Ned who had given Jon his name.. Jon might not have been named before Ned came around to do so.. Or Jon was named by Lyanna earlier... It's a possibility :)

But it's not a certain thing.

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No one but you is throwing around "up to 6 weeks after childbirth"...

And Rhaegar was the first Targaryen to engage in a polygamous marriage... But not the first Targaryen, nor are there any hints that it was made illegal.

they are throwing around postpartum bleeding... to explain bed of blood... and that lasts up to 6 weeks

Rhaegar was the first Targ to engage in polygamy in living memory..

GRRM actually says it was never made illegal... (but marriage was never made legal--there was no such thing as civil marriage...it was purely by the gods(septons, priest, or heart tree) of one's faith)....

Was anybody including a Targ in the seven kingdoms born the child of a polygamous marriage at the time allegedly Rhaegar did it?

if not he was the first targ in living memory to engage in polygamy.

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I am so NOT getting pulled back into this madness....

I know I have to remind myself don't hit the view anyways button.

Your line of thinking has become more and more difficult to follow. To the point that your posts in this thread no longer make any sense.

I have some things to say about his posts and making sense, but I won't.

As far as which dragon Jon will ride, I want to say Viserion because he is the most (as far as appearances goes) related to the Old Gods. And Dany testing Jon by using Drogon and potentially losing him(Drogon) to Jon I don't think so. She would most likely use a different dragon.

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^ I would prefer it to be Rhaegal because of the name, the coloring (green/bronze -> First Men) and because Rhaegal had always been my favorite dragon. Viserion is the weakest IMO, he/it (?) likes everyone and I think he/it (?) is going to bend to the dragon horn.


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Ehm... I said they found Ned... Perhaps you should read every single word of my post... So you won't have to argue against stuff I never stated to begin with.

That use of Eddard is the person who is trying to wake Ned up.. Ned's dream merges his dream about Lyanna with hearing "Eddard!" instead of "Ned".

They had found him... that doesn't suggest that they had all been at the tower for some time after the fight against the KG.. it suggests little passing of time, IMO. If they had all been inside ToJ for some time, there would be no need to find Ned, they would have known where he was already.---RT

You have now switched from Ned chapter 39 to Ned chapter 4... The ToJ is now removed from the discussion...

You are now asserting an unspecified THEY suggests something specific... the amount of time they were at the tower. We are now bringing up the showdown again though we had switched chapters.

I attempted to assist you by filling in who they were. Because if you don't establish who they were you can't assert anything about the time.

I then explained to you that--- they found Ned holding her hand =/= they had to find Ned....

I did so by saying "I found you with your pants down" does not have to mean I did not know where you were... it can mean I did not know what you were doing. (No I was not trying to find you while your pants were down)

and ahem perhaps you should read every word of your text as well

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I know I have to remind myself don't hit the view anyways button.

I have some things to say about his posts and making sense, but I won't.

Lol, are you a telepath? :P

A little tidbit on the KotLT identity:

Bran thinks it is the crannogman:

All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought.

Which almost certainly means it is not the crannogman, as first-time interpretations of any mystery in the books are never right.

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Is it a certain thing that Jon's birth name wasn't Jon? I always figured maybe Rhaegar named him after his friend Jon Connington.

It's certainly a possibility. But up until now, Rhaegar has named his children very Targaryen names. And, so far as we know, Lyanna has no reason to name him Jon. She might, but I'm not sure I know why she would.

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Lol, are you a telepath? :P

A little tidbit on the KotLT identity:

Bran thinks it is the crannogman:

All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought.

Which almost certainly means it is not the crannogman, as first-time interpretations of any mystery in the books are never right.

As far as I know no, but sometimes I wish I was.

I will agree about first-time interpretations (Cersei and the more beautiful queen).

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As far as which dragon Jon will ride, I want to say Viserion because he is the most (as far as appearances goes) related to the Old Gods. And Dany testing Jon by using Drogon and potentially losing him(Drogon) to Jon I don't think so. She would most likely use a different dragon.

It would be epic if Viserion (if Jon were to mount him other than Drogon), would have the red blood eyes also, like Ghost, like the heart tree. It would make sense, that the old gods also provided Jon a dragon, marking him with the link to the old gods (as they did with Ghost).

But it's hard to ignore Jon's linkage with Drogon as far as clues, hints and foreshadowing. GRRM wouldn't put Dany getting hurt, crying out in pain by a stone turning under her foot, bending the knee to an unseen King, and followed by when the grass bowing to Drogon. There was a reason for Dany being fearful to 'the Dragon' in her dream leading her to waking up, shaking and sweating.

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Rhaegar was the first Targ to engage in polygamy in living memory..

GRRM actually says it was never made illegal... (but marriage was never made legal--there was no such thing as civil marriage...it was purely by the gods(septons, priest, or heart tree) of one's faith)....

Was anybody including a Targ in the seven kingdoms born the child of a polygamous marriage at the time allegedly Rhaegar did it?

if not he was the first targ in living memory to engage in polygamy.

Well, I have my own theory (right now it's crackpot, but I'm working on making it more legitimate (much like many on this forum want Jon to be legitimate ;) ), that Rhaegar and Lyanna wedded in a godswood. The old gods have no rules against polygamy, (As Ned said to Cat, "it's your gods who have all the rules"), so a child from this marriage would be legitimate. This also would cause Bran to be able to witness the wedding (through the weirwood eyes), making the current true heir to Winterfell (i know that's debatable, but he is the eldest legitimate son of Ned Stark, so that makes him the heir in my head), a witness to the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, if Howland Reed ever shows up, he can also testify to R+L=J.

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Well, I have my own theory (right now it's crackpot, but I'm working on making it more legitimate (much like many on this forum want Jon to be legitimate ;) ), that Rhaegar and Lyanna wedded in a godswood. The old gods have no rules against polygamy, (As Ned said to Cat, "it's your gods who have all the rules"), so a child from this marriage would be legitimate. This also would cause Bran to be able to witness the wedding (through the weirwood eyes), making the current true heir to Winterfell (i know that's debatable, but he is the eldest legitimate son of Ned Stark, so that makes him the heir in my head), a witness to the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, if Howland Reed ever shows up, he can also testify to R+L=J.

Not so crackpot. Many of us here believe they married in a godswood. If Lyanna was "taken" from Harrenhal, or nearby, the Isle of Face is right there...I also believe that they married in the new god tradition, to appease all sides.

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It would be epic if Viserion (if Jon were to mount him other than Drogon), would have the red blood eyes also, like Ghost, like the heart tree. It would make sense, that the old gods also provided Jon a dragon, marking him with the link to the old gods (as they did with Ghost).

But it's hard to ignore Jon's linkage with Drogon as far as clues, hints and foreshadowing. GRRM wouldn't put Dany getting hurt, crying out in pain by a stone turning under her foot, bending the knee to an unseen King, and followed by when the grass bowing to Drogon. There was a reason for Dany being fearful to 'the Dragon' in her dream leading her to waking up, shaking and sweating.

Come on ! I am the only one who's supporting Rhaegal ! The smart one !

Viserion has golden eyes IIRC.

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Well, I have my own theory (right now it's crackpot, but I'm working on making it more legitimate (much like many on this forum want Jon to be legitimate ;) ), that Rhaegar and Lyanna wedded in a godswood. The old gods have no rules against polygamy, (As Ned said to Cat, "it's your gods who have all the rules"), so a child from this marriage would be legitimate. This also would cause Bran to be able to witness the wedding (through the weirwood eyes), making the current true heir to Winterfell (i know that's debatable, but he is the eldest legitimate son of Ned Stark, so that makes him the heir in my head), a witness to the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, if Howland Reed ever shows up, he can also testify to R+L=J.

The only thing possibly "crackpot" about this is the manner in which they wed, and even that is something on which I believe I agree with you. The supposed wedding will only be an inference until we get confirmation but we know that the KG at the ToJ behaved as though Jon's claim superseded Viserys's and we also know that Rhaegar planned on having a third head to the dragon (ie, Jon wasn't "born of lust and weakness"). I don't know of any bastards in the series that were planned. An inferred marriage really ties up both of those principles neatly, even if there is no direct evidence for the ceremony.

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Come on ! I am the only one who's supporting Rhaegal ! The smart one !

I think all 3 dragons make sense in some way.

Drogon, the "king" plus all the foreshadowing IceFire points out

Rhaegal because of the obvious name

Viserion because of the of the Old Gods/Ghost connection.

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I think all 3 dragons make sense in some way.

Drogon, the "king" plus all the foreshadowing IceFire points out

Rhaegal because of the obvious name

Viserion because of the of the Old Gods/Ghost connection.

I think Drogon is too show-off and blood-thirsty: "I'm the biggest" and I see no connection with Viserion and the old gods, he is "cream and gold" if I recall correctly and too obedient/tamed when Rhaegal green and bronze makes me think of the First Men.

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Well, I have my own theory (right now it's crackpot, but I'm working on making it more legitimate (much like many on this forum want Jon to be legitimate ;) ), that Rhaegar and Lyanna wedded in a godswood. The old gods have no rules against polygamy, (As Ned said to Cat, "it's your gods who have all the rules"), so a child from this marriage would be legitimate. This also would cause Bran to be able to witness the wedding (through the weirwood eyes), making the current true heir to Winterfell (i know that's debatable, but he is the eldest legitimate son of Ned Stark, so that makes him the heir in my head), a witness to the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, if Howland Reed ever shows up, he can also testify to R+L=J.

The wedded in two religions is reasonable.... but would the law hold it valid... or the faith of the 7 which was largely written into the law.

So it could be as a matter of faith legitimate but as a matter of law illegitimate.... it gets really confusing.

the safest out on that is the absolutely supportable Rhaegar and Lyanna considered themselves to be married...

Howland and Bran should show us what happened...

Have you considered what stannis had to say.... win the throne by protecting the realm

If jon sits the iron throne that is his path... not some farsical aquatic ceremony...or who married or did not marry who...

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Well, I have my own theory (right now it's crackpot, but I'm working on making it more legitimate (much like many on this forum want Jon to be legitimate ;) ), that Rhaegar and Lyanna wedded in a godswood. The old gods have no rules against polygamy, (As Ned said to Cat, "it's your gods who have all the rules"), so a child from this marriage would be legitimate. This also would cause Bran to be able to witness the wedding (through the weirwood eyes), making the current true heir to Winterfell (i know that's debatable, but he is the eldest legitimate son of Ned Stark, so that makes him the heir in my head), a witness to the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Also, if Howland Reed ever shows up, he can also testify to R+L=J.

I wouldn't be surprised if this (or a similar scenario) is what happened.

I like Neds line about "rules". :) good catch!

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I think Drogon is too show-off and blood-thirsty: "I'm the biggest" and I see no connection with Viserion and the old gods, he is "cream and gold" if I recall correctly and too obedient/tamed when Rhaegal green and bronze makes me think of the First Men.

You're correct, Viserion is only white, no red eyes.

Drogon...there is the aforementioned king things on the Dothraki Sea. He's also black (Night's Watch) and red (ghost's/weirdwood eyes). And it's the color of House Targ, and Jon has the better claim over Dany.

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