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R+L=J v 87


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Not at all. The reveal itself is not as important as its impact and incorporation in the story - the journey matters more than the destination. As for the deus ex machina, a good writer has no need to pull these, and GRRM himself said he wouldn't because it would make all the carefully planted foreshadowing invalid and thus a lie, and he is not a liar.

Like Ned being beheaded instead of going to the wall...Like Robb being killed instead of gaining an army... in both cases information GRRM gave to indicate the fate of the character proved to be false. --Lies filthy lies... he was supposed to go to the wall-- --Lies filthy lies.... he ate bread and salt he was protected---

Foreshadowing= an indication or a suggestion... foreshadowing =/= a statement of fact.

The use of "foreshadowing" (indication and suggestion) when the "facts" are known is a lie--something intended or serving to convey a false impression.

How can you call it "true" only if your idea of the indication and suggestion turns out to be the same as the GRRM's idea?

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Like Ned being beheaded instead of going to the wall...Like Robb being killed instead of gaining an army... in both cases information GRRM gave to indicate the fate of the character proved to be false. --Lies filthy lies... he was supposed to go to the wall-- --Lies filthy lies.... he ate bread and salt he was protected---

Foreshadowing= an indication or a suggestion... foreshadowing =/= a statement of fact.

The use of "foreshadowing" (indication and suggestion) when the "facts" are known is a lie--something intended or serving to convey a false impression.

How can you call it "true" only if your idea of the indication and suggestion turns out to be the same as the GRRM's idea?

Please, educate yourself on what foreshadowing means. Neither of what you cited is.

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stateofdissipation, on 14 Jul 2014 - 6:15 PM, said:snapback.png




Like Ned being beheaded instead of going to the wall...Like Robb being killed instead of gaining an army... in both cases information GRRM gave to indicate the fate of the character proved to be false. --Lies filthy lies... he was supposed to go to the wall-- --Lies filthy lies.... he ate bread and salt he was protected---



Foreshadowing= an indication or a suggestion... foreshadowing =/= a statement of fact.



The use of "foreshadowing" (indication and suggestion) when the "facts" are known is a lie--something intended or serving to convey a false impression.



How can you call it "true" only if your idea of the indication and suggestion turns out to be the same as the GRRM's idea?







Please, educate yourself on what foreshadowing means. Neither of what you cited is.




http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/foreshadowing


Foreshadowing


verb (used with object)


to show or indicate beforehand; prefigure: Political upheavals foreshadowed war.


education complete...


The statement that Ned will be sent to the wall did come before his execution. The statement indicated that Ned would be sent to the wall.

GRRM foreshadowed Ned going to the wall.

GRRM canceled the foreshadowing with an execution.


Cat's statement that eating bread and salt gives the guest right and protection did come before the red wedding. The statement indicated that eating bread and salt gives the guest right and protection.

GRRM foreshadowed Robb's safety after eating bread and salt.

GRRM canceled the foreshadowing with the Red Wedding.

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SOD, you're conflating the author foreshadowing with individual characters being liars or just wrong about things.



It's actually a pretty common device to have any really explicitly delineated plan fail, while a plan that we don't see plotted "onscreen" will be the one that works. This is because nobody wants to read the same scene twice. i.e., if everybody in the whole story is going "Ned's going to the Wall! Yup, the Wall! When he gets there, he's gonna take the black! He's gonna talk to Jon too! At the Wall! Where Ned is going! Wally McWallerson!", it might be taken as foreshadowing that something different is going to happen. Which it does.


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SOD, you're conflating the author foreshadowing with individual characters being liars or just wrong about things.

Exactly

This is an indication of foreshadowing:

Dany sees, in the HotU, a wedding party where all the guests are slain and watching her is a man with the head of a wolf, looking forlorn wearing an Iron Crown. Does it make sense when you read "Clash" for the first time? Nope. Does it make sense when you read "Storm" Yup. Because foreshadowing.

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SOD, you're conflating the author foreshadowing with individual characters being liars or just wrong about things.

It's actually a pretty common device to have any really explicitly delineated plan fail, while a plan that we don't see plotted "onscreen" will be the one that works. This is because nobody wants to read the same scene twice. i.e., if everybody in the whole story is going "Ned's going to the Wall! Yup, the Wall! When he gets there, he's gonna take the black! He's gonna talk to Jon too! At the Wall! Where Ned is going! Wally McWallerson!", it might be taken as foreshadowing that something different is going to happen. Which it does.

So are you separating author foreshadowing from the statements and judgments of individual characters?

This is fine. Setting, theme, archetypes, etc can provide excellent foreshadowing.

So there is an R plus L equals J author foreshadowing that is separate from the statements and judgments of individual characters?

I am unaware of one. That does not mean it does not exist. Enlighten me.

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Um, I like the argument and agree it is foreshadowing...





This is an indication of foreshadowing:



Dany sees, in the HotU, a wedding party where all the guests are slain and watching her is a man with the head of a wolf, looking forlorn wearing an Iron Crown. Does it make sense when you read "Clash" for the first time? Nope. Does it make sense when you read "Storm" Yup. Because foreshadowing.





...but it does not make so much sense to me still after ASoS. I am afraid it maybe something that hasn't happened yet. But maybe then, I've just gone all bonkers :)


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So are you separating author foreshadowing from the statements and judgments of individual characters?

This is fine. Setting, theme, archetypes, etc can provide excellent foreshadowing.

So there is an R plus L equals J author foreshadowing that is separate from the statements and judgments of individual characters?

I am unaware of one. That does not mean it does not exist. Enlighten me.

Oh, for heaven's sake. No, I'm not separating it completely--GRRM uses more than one literary device to plant clues. My point is that you can't just look at dialogue and conclude that it's the only foreshadowing he's giving us, because sometimes the characters are lying or mistaken. i.e. you can't say the Red Wedding wasn't foreshadowed just because Catelyn kept reassuring herself about guest right. She was mistaken, thinking the Freys were operating under the same ethical system she was.

Non-dialogue R+L=J foreshadowing might include the rose in the wall of ice at the HotU. Obviously, some of the evidence is in dialogue, but not all.

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stateofdissipation, on 14 Jul 2014 - 6:15 PM, said:snapback.png

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/foreshadowing

Foreshadowing

verb (used with object)

to show or indicate beforehand; prefigure: Political upheavals foreshadowed war.

education complete...

The statement that Ned will be sent to the wall did come before his execution. The statement indicated that Ned would be sent to the wall.

GRRM foreshadowed Ned going to the wall.

GRRM canceled the foreshadowing with an execution.

Cat's statement that eating bread and salt gives the guest right and protection did come before the red wedding. The statement indicated that eating bread and salt gives the guest right and protection.

GRRM foreshadowed Robb's safety after eating bread and salt.

GRRM canceled the foreshadowing with the Red Wedding.

Try to find a more thorough source. Preferably, one that covers foreshadowing in literature, because what you keep parroting is NOT foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is e.g. Greywind attacking the Freys, Cat's gut feeling that something is off, what have you. These indicate that there is a big trouble ahead, contrary to what Lord Walder says or what Cat thinks about the protection of the ancient custom.

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Try to find a more thorough source. Preferably, one that covers foreshadowing in literature, because what you keep parroting is NOT foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is e.g. Greywind attacking the Freys, Cat's gut feeling that something is off, what have you. These indicate that there is a big trouble ahead, contrary to what Lord Walder says or what Cat thinks about the protection of the ancient custom.

:agree:

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:agree:

Oh, and while I kind of always knew Walder wouldn't take kindly to what had happened, an example of dialogue that did serve as foreshadowing is when he says "the red will run" as it all begins. It sounds on the surface like he's talking about wine, but that was the moment I knew shit was going down for sure.

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I'm late to this party and could completely be out of the element, but saying that the bread and salt custom of guest right is lie in regard to foreshadowing Robb's safety at the twins is ridiculous. Unless I'm wrong, I don't look at foreshadowing as something that is implied explicitly, e.g bread and salt comment by cat. Right?

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I'm late to this party and could completely be out of the element, but saying that the bread and salt custom of guest right is lie in regard to foreshadowing Robb's safety at the twins is ridiculous. Unless I'm wrong, I don't look at foreshadowing as something that is implied explicitly, e.g bread and salt comment by cat. Right?

Well, basically, somebody's just trying to play word games with us, I suspect to "trap" us into saying something we aren't intending to say about a different topic.

And if you're referring to my post, Catelyn's thoughts about guest right fall under the category of mistakes, not lies (I mention mistakes there too). She's not lying to the reader, she's just wrong.

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I'm late to this party and could completely be out of the element, but saying that the bread and salt custom of guest right is lie in regard to foreshadowing Robb's safety at the twins is ridiculous. Unless I'm wrong, I don't look at foreshadowing as something that is implied explicitly, e.g bread and salt comment by cat. Right?

I think the bread and salt comment at the Twins is perverse irony.

a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.

an event characterized by an incongruity, or contrast, between what the expectations of a situation are and what is really the case

Now that you've eaten bread and salt, you are supposed to be safe. Several hours later...."the king of the North..arises." It's not amusing, hence me putting "perverse" before irony.

It's not foreshadowing that Robb is going to be safe. It's not an authorial lie. It's a lie on the part of Walder Frey.

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Enough of troll feeding, I'd say.

On a different note:

I'm just watching season 3, the episode where Cat rambles how she was sitting over ill Jon and making promises to gods that she would love him and ask Ned to give him his name and how she is the worst woman evarr.... OMFG, that makes absolutely no sense

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Enough of troll feeding, I'd say.

On a different note:

I'm just watching season 3, the episode where Cat rambles how she was sitting over ill Jon and making promises to gods that she would love him and ask Ned to give him his name and how she is the worst woman evarr.... OMFG, that makes absolutely no sense

Good point. I successfully avoided it for like 15 pages and then fell in.

And you're right, that makes no sense. What were they thinking?

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Enough of troll feeding, I'd say.

On a different note:

I'm just watching season 3, the episode where Cat rambles how she was sitting over ill Jon and making promises to gods that she would love him and ask Ned to give him his name and how she is the worst woman evarr.... OMFG, that makes absolutely no sense

The first time I saw that episode I just stared at the screen and went.. "wut?" Like..did I miss some major break through for Cat? Like isn't the last conversation she has about Jon Snow with Robb and her whole "you cannot make him your heir!!!!!"

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Try to find a more thorough source. Preferably, one that covers foreshadowing in literature, because what you keep parroting is NOT foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is e.g. Greywind attacking the Freys, Cat's gut feeling that something is off, what have you. These indicate that there is a big trouble ahead, contrary to what Lord Walder says or what Cat thinks about the protection of the ancient custom.

Foreshadowing or guessing ahead is a literary device by which an author explains certain plot developments that may come later in the story.It is used to arouse and mentally prepare the reader or listener for how the story will proceed and unfold.

A hint that is designed to mislead the audience is referred to as a red herring. A similar device is the flashforward (also known as prolepsis). However, foreshadowing only hints at a possible outcome within the confinement of a narrative. A flashforward is a scene that takes the narrative forward in time from the current point of the story in literature, film, television, and other media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreshadowing

The end is the same... foreshadowing is not a promise.. It is not a lie if the foreshadowed never becomes actual. Using the base word definition was just a quicker way to the same end.--- on second thought... the highlited portion made my point for me... and using the literary foreshadowing would have been quicker and eliminated the need for my largely silly examples...

The original post was GRRM foreshadowed R plus L equals J. If R plus L does not end up being true it was a lie. GRRM does not lie.

That just is not how it works...

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Enough of troll feeding, I'd say.

On a different note:

I'm just watching season 3, the episode where Cat rambles how she was sitting over ill Jon and making promises to gods that she would love him and ask Ned to give him his name and how she is the worst woman evarr.... OMFG, that makes absolutely no sense

Not only did it not make sense, it was the most unbearable scene in the entire series. No other reason to put that dialogue in then to upset readers imo.
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