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R+L=J v 87


Stubby

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Oh, and because it hasn't been quoted in a while:



"I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar."


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Oh, and because it hasn't been quoted in a while:

"I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar."

That is what i was trying to say.. you said it better.

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Oh, and because it hasn't been quoted in a while:

"I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar."

Yes, the point is that GRRM has put in lots of clues--which serve as foreshadowing. He also puts in some red herrings, so some situations that appear to be foreshadowing are just there to throw off the reader, but are still not inconsistent with the overall story arc and plot points. The people on this board, of course, look in every "nook and cranny" for clues and foreshadowing, so some items are just not intended as foreshadowing at all, but is a mere coincidence, at best.

What GRRM means when he says that he is not a liar is that the clues and red herrings were put in the story in a certain way to make sense in the end. While it might be possible to change the ending and still have all of these clues and red herrings work (e.g., by making the red herrings the real clues and the clues that would have been real the red herrings), attempting to do this reshuffling of the plot is likely to fail. A major "continuity" error is likely to crop up because when writing the story, the clues were put in with a certain story arc and plot points in mind.

For example, if GRRM decides now to make Ned really Jon's father, he would have to explain all of the clues that led the careful readers to the conclusion of R+L=J. What was the bed of blood? What was the promise? What was the blue rose in the wall about? etc. etc. etc. There are just too many clues that would need to be explained in a completely different way than originally intended for the story to still hang together properly. So in the end, if this approach were attempted, some of the clues would be bound to make no sense and not be explainable in any reasonable way, no matter how hard GRRM tried to invent new explanations for the disguarded clues. I believe this issue is what GRRM means when he says that he is not a liar. He does not mean that he put in no red herrings. He means that in the end all of the clues and red herrings will makes sense--and he cannot accomplish that goal if he changes major plot points or story arcs in the middle of writing the series.

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Well, I don't want to keep injecting myself into this conversation, as after having read the entire thread, the argument seems to be settled (in my opinion).



Actually, I suppose my perspective on that front may be of some worth. I'll expound. I came to this thread well aware of R+L=J, and I did indeed pick up on it my first time through the books. I didn't, however, pick up on the intricacies whatsoever. I certainly missed the true importance of the Kingsguard moment, and I hadn't paid much attention to Ashara Dayne either. That aside, I had certainly not even considered that Jon would be a legitimate Targaryen. So as someone coming at all this with fairly intelligent, fairly reasonable, but 'unsullied' eyes, I commend you all, as I leave convinced.



State, as your opponents have said, you do indeed fall into the trap of semantic argumentation. On the main points, you've almost entirely failed to give any reasonable rebuttal. This isn't your fault, of course, it's simply the fact that all the evidence is indeed on the side of R+L=J. There's really little you can offer in prosecution of the theory.



Finally, I'll just bookend my last comment, since some of you were kind enough to respond. I think it's great that you're all pretty happy, even if you have managed to correctly predict the future plot of the books. You guys reason that you don't mind if you have, because it was fun working it all out, and really, there'll still be some minor details that you haven't quite got.



I guess my main issue, though, as someone who's been reading up on everything, is that I kinda feel like the wisdom of the crowd approach is so powerful, that we've really all worked out so much, with such certainty, that it kind of goes away from being great theories or predictions into de facto spoilers. You know?



Anyway, I'm as sullied as I can possibly be now, so I'll be sticking around!

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Well, I don't want to keep injecting myself into this conversation, as after having read the entire thread, the argument seems to be settled (in my opinion).

Actually, I suppose my perspective on that front may be of some worth. I'll expound. I came to this thread well aware of R+L=J, and I did indeed pick up on it my first time through the books. I didn't, however, pick up on the intricacies whatsoever. I certainly missed the true importance of the Kingsguard moment, and I hadn't paid much attention to Ashara Dayne either. That aside, I had certainly not even considered that Jon would be a legitimate Targaryen. So as someone coming at all this with fairly intelligent, fairly reasonable, but 'unsullied' eyes, I commend you all, as I leave convinced.

State, as your opponents have said, you do indeed fall into the trap of semantic argumentation. On the main points, you've almost entirely failed to give any reasonable rebuttal. This isn't your fault, of course, it's simply the fact that all the evidence is indeed on the side of R+L=J. There's really little you can offer in prosecution of the theory.

Finally, I'll just bookend my last comment, since some of you were kind enough to respond. I think it's great that you're all pretty happy, even if you have managed to correctly predict the future plot of the books. You guys reason that you don't mind if you have, because it was fun working it all out, and really, there'll still be some minor details that you haven't quite got.

I guess my main issue, though, as someone who's been reading up on everything, is that I kinda feel like the wisdom of the crowd approach is so powerful, that we've really all worked out so much, with such certainty, that it kind of goes away from being great theories or predictions into de facto spoilers. You know?

Anyway, I'm as sullied as I can possibly be now, so I'll be sticking around!

R+L=J is only one of the many mysteries to be figured out. We still really have no definitive idea how it will be revealed or what the significance in the end will be to this fact. Moreover, we don't know for sure who the Three Heads of the Dragon will be, who AAR will be, who TPTWP will be, whether additional "hidden" Targs are out there (Tyrion being the most popular candidate), etc. etc. So no matter how many clues have been given, most of the theories on these other issues are still only theories and not really spoilers (although some people will end up being right and other wrong on their reading of the clues).

But for me, I actually can enjoy the story more if I am not worried about looking at the clues while I am reading. If I basically know more or less how everything works out, I don't have to get anxious and distracted while reading, but can sit back and enjoy how it unfolds, knowing who lives and dies (and other basic endgame plot points) but not exactly how they get to the end.

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R+L=J is only one of the many mysteries to be figured out. We still really have no definitive idea how it will be revealed or what the significance in the end will be to this fact. Moreover, we don't know for sure who the Three Heads of the Dragon will be, who AAR will be, who TPTWP will be, whether additional "hidden" Targs are out there (Tyrion being the most popular candidate), etc. etc. So no matter how many clues have been given, most of the theories on these other issues are still only theories and not really spoilers (although some people will end up being right and other wrong on their reading of the clues).

But for me, I actually can enjoy the story more if I am not worried about looking at the clues while I am reading. If I basically know more or less how everything works out, I don't have to get anxious and distracted while reading, but can sit back and enjoy how it unfolds, knowing who lives and dies (and other basic endgame plot points) but not exactly how they get to the end.

Um we absolutely know that Hot Pie is TPTWP and that Tormund is AAR and that his member is Lightbringer. Get caught up for the rest of our sakes, yeesh!

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Well, I don't want to keep injecting myself into this conversation, as after having read the entire thread, the argument seems to be settled (in my opinion).

Actually, I suppose my perspective on that front may be of some worth. I'll expound. I came to this thread well aware of R+L=J, and I did indeed pick up on it my first time through the books. I didn't, however, pick up on the intricacies whatsoever. I certainly missed the true importance of the Kingsguard moment, and I hadn't paid much attention to Ashara Dayne either. That aside, I had certainly not even considered that Jon would be a legitimate Targaryen. So as someone coming at all this with fairly intelligent, fairly reasonable, but 'unsullied' eyes, I commend you all, as I leave convinced.

State, as your opponents have said, you do indeed fall into the trap of semantic argumentation. On the main points, you've almost entirely failed to give any reasonable rebuttal. This isn't your fault, of course, it's simply the fact that all the evidence is indeed on the side of R+L=J. There's really little you can offer in prosecution of the theory.

Finally, I'll just bookend my last comment, since some of you were kind enough to respond. I think it's great that you're all pretty happy, even if you have managed to correctly predict the future plot of the books. You guys reason that you don't mind if you have, because it was fun working it all out, and really, there'll still be some minor details that you haven't quite got.

I guess my main issue, though, as someone who's been reading up on everything, is that I kinda feel like the wisdom of the crowd approach is so powerful, that we've really all worked out so much, with such certainty, that it kind of goes away from being great theories or predictions into de facto spoilers. You know?

Anyway, I'm as sullied as I can possibly be now, so I'll be sticking around!

I am not prosecuting the theory. In fact, I agree with R plus L equals J and Jon was legitimate.

I am simply opposed to circular logic, false dichotomy, and assertions that require additions and subtractions from the text...

One can reach the same ends without cheating...

For example... the first duty of the kingsguard is to guard the king.. aDwD queensguard it is a hint... it is there and it is real.. Saying that failure to immediately be with the king is oathbreaking.. is an attempt to turn a hint into "proof." The assertion requires ignoring the KG killed fighting the king's enemies and the defiance at duskendale. It makes a false dichotomy between KG's presence at the ToJ being either the defense of Jon or oathbreaking. It is circular because it fails to establish what the KG were doing before Jon was at the ToJ.

There are too many hints to ignore the Jon is legitimate theory. However, when somebody claims their fabrication is "proof"... it does not help the theory, it hurts it.

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R+L=J is only one of the many mysteries to be figured out. We still really have no definitive idea how it will be revealed or what the significance in the end will be to this fact. Moreover, we don't know for sure who the Three Heads of the Dragon will be, who AAR will be, who TPTWP will be, whether additional "hidden" Targs are out there (Tyrion being the most popular candidate), etc. etc. So no matter how many clues have been given, most of the theories on these other issues are still only theories and not really spoilers (although some people will end up being right and other wrong on their reading of the clues).

But for me, I actually can enjoy the story more if I am not worried about looking at the clues while I am reading. If I basically know more or less how everything works out, I don't have to get anxious and distracted while reading, but can sit back and enjoy how it unfolds, knowing who lives and dies (and other basic endgame plot points) but not exactly how they get to the end.

I understand your sentiment, but I myself like to figure out as many of the details as I can. (The above posts concerning Jon's Targ name is a good example of a detail that's fun to figure out). Obviously, these details will not be 100%, but they can be ranked by "most likely."

For instance, I think it is most likely that R+L=J will be revealed in a Bran chapter when he's looking through a weirwood and sees R and L getting married. (My reasoning is that GRRM could just have Howland Reed tell Jon, but we've seen how Jon's bastardy has affected his character so much, that it is implausible that anyone but his trueborn brother and rightful heir to Winterfell will be able to convince him otherwise. Because no one else does or could know about R+L=J, right? I'm still out on how he'll claim his birthright. It could be through the GNC, becoming one of the heads of the dragon with Dany, some other twist, or he fails to sit the IT.)

Anyway, we all have fun with ASOIAF and the conspiracy theories that can be derived from it, and that's the main point.

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I understand your sentiment, but I myself like to figure out as many of the details as I can. (The above posts concerning Jon's Targ name is a good example of a detail that's fun to figure out). Obviously, these details will not be 100%, but they can be ranked by "most likely."

For instance, I think it is most likely that R+L=J will be revealed in a Bran chapter when he's looking through a weirwood and sees R and L getting married. (My reasoning is that GRRM could just have Howland Reed tell Jon, but we've seen how Jon's bastardy has affected his character so much, that it is implausible that anyone but his trueborn brother and rightful heir to Winterfell will be able to convince him otherwise. Because no one else does or could know about R+L=J, right? I'm still out on how he'll claim his birthright. It could be through the GNC, becoming one of the heads of the dragon with Dany, some other twist, or he fails to sit the IT.)

Anyway, we all have fun with ASOIAF and the conspiracy theories that can be derived from it, and that's the main point.

I think I was not clear. Here, where books in a series come out years apart, going on this board and trying to work through clues with others is fun. But it is distracting to me to try to figure out the clues in the middle of reading a book. That process (for me) takes away from enjoying the reading and keeps my mind racing in too many directions while I am trying to just read the story and enjoy where it is taking me. And so once a book actually comes out, I can enjoy reading it more if I know basically where it is going (as long as I don't know the details of how it gets there). After reading the book--to pass the time until the next book comes out--analyzing the clues is quite entertaining to try to figure out what will happen in future books in the series.

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Was Martin's wife trolling us when she said R+L=J was too obvious to be true?

I don't think she was deliberately trolling. What else was she going to say: "oh! you figured it out! congrats!"

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I don't think she was deliberately trolling. What else was she going to say: "oh! you figured it out! congrats!"

She also apparently claimed that GRRM has never actually told her whether it is true or not--so she was supposedly claiming that it was just her opinion. But who knows. The one thing that is certain is that if she knows for sure, she would never admit it.

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Well, I don't want to keep injecting myself into this conversation, as after having read the entire thread, the argument seems to be settled (in my opinion).

Actually, I suppose my perspective on that front may be of some worth. I'll expound. I came to this thread well aware of R+L=J, and I did indeed pick up on it my first time through the books. I didn't, however, pick up on the intricacies whatsoever. I certainly missed the true importance of the Kingsguard moment, and I hadn't paid much attention to Ashara Dayne either. That aside, I had certainly not even considered that Jon would be a legitimate Targaryen. So as someone coming at all this with fairly intelligent, fairly reasonable, but 'unsullied' eyes, I commend you all, as I leave convinced.

Very much same here - I went even as far as to figure out that the KG wouldn't be hanging out there if there was no Targaryen blood present at ToJ, so whenI finally heard about polygamy, it was as if the last final piece smoothly slid where it belonged.

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Just for the lulz: As I finished watching that episode 3 (Walk of Punishment), I am thinking of making a poll for rating episodes for (unintended) hilarity.

Besides the Cat line about Jon I mentioned earlier,

Margaery telling Joffrey how Renly wanted anal sex and Pod getting laid

are such deadbrainers that they are actually funny, in a sort of desperate way. Also, the dubbing should receive some extra points because Shae became She, Rhaegar is Rehgar and Jaime somehow acquired Spanish ancestry :lmao:

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If Jon's true name is Aegon, there is a fair chance he could turn out to be the seventh King Aegon, following fAegon as Aegon VI in a short stint, or as a pretender. Which, btw, could provide a possible spin on the Elder Brother's famous quote: “Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

Sorry for such a late reply but London Film and Comic Con gave me the formidable excuse to troll-skipping a few pages LOL

While still slightly partial to 'Aemon', I find your quote spinning simply beautiful. Also, for some bloody reasons my metaphorically charged synapses connected your 'dynastic' rubies to Daemon's weirwood slashes. 13 as in Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor, Viserys II, Aegon IV, Daeron II, Aerys I, Maekar, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Aegon VI* and... Aemon I/Aegon VII.

The frequently recurring king's blood/bloodline theme symbolically intertwined with the frequently recurring numbers 7 and 13... not to mention the pun-like chance of a bloodline starting with Daemon and ending with Aemon LOL

* whether Rhaegar's firstborn son or a Black/Brightfyre offspring, he still remains direct descendant of Daemon Targaryen.

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Sorry for such a late reply but London Film and Comic Con gave me the formidable excuse to troll-skipping a few pages LOL

While still slightly partial to 'Aemon', I find your quote spinning simply beautiful. Also, for some bloody reasons my metaphorically charged synapses connected your 'dynastic' rubies to Daemon's weirwood slashes. 13 as in Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor, Viserys II, Aegon IV, Daeron II, Aerys I, Maekar, Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Aegon VI* and... Aemon I/Aegon VII.

The frequently recurring king's blood/bloodline theme symbolically intertwined with the frequently recurring numbers 7 and 13... not to mention the pun-like chance of a bloodline starting with Daemon and ending with Aemon LOL

* whether Rhaegar's firstborn son or a Black/Brightfyre offspring, he still remains direct descendant of Daemon Targaryen.

Another thing that occurs to me is that even if Jon was never named Aemon originally, if the time ever comes that he needs to take a Targ name (like the way some royals in our real world will go by one thing as a kid or privately, then pick a different name to rule under), Aemon might be a natural choice for him since he admired the old one at the Wall so much.

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