R+L=J v 87

[BearQueen87]

Another thing that occurs to me is that even if Jon was never named Aemon originally, if the time ever comes that he needs to take a Targ name (like the way some royals in our real world will go by one thing as a kid or privately, then pick a different name to rule under), Aemon might be a natural choice for him since he admired the old one at the Wall so much.

The name might also be an indication of the kind of king he wants to be. There are good Aegon's, but there are some unworthy (heh) ones as well. Aemon is a fresh start, and reflects that Jon values wisdom and intelligence.

[Ygrain]

Another thing that occurs to me is that even if Jon was never named Aemon originally, if the time ever comes that he needs to take a Targ name (like the way some royals in our real world will go by one thing as a kid or privately, then pick a different name to rule under), Aemon might be a natural choice for him since he admired the old one at the Wall so much.

I don't think he would want to give up a name given by Ned, but should that occur, I agree that a tribute to Maester Aemon is very likely.

[MtnLion]

Just for the lulz: As I finished watching that episode 3 (Walk of Punishment), I am thinking of making a poll for rating episodes for (unintended) hilarity.

Besides the Cat line about Jon I mentioned earlier,

Margaery telling Joffrey how Renly wanted anal sex and Pod getting laid

are such deadbrainers that they are actually funny, in a sort of desperate way. Also, the dubbing should receive some extra points because Shae became She, Rhaegar is Rehgar and Jaime somehow acquired Spanish ancestry :lmao:

I am still having a chuckle over whoever said, "Renly is a pillow-biter".

[JonSnow4President]

They found HIM (Ned)... not Ned and Howland found Lyanna (HER). Finding Lyanna had to come earlier. THEY is not Howland Reed and Ned either....

Who are they?

If they found Lyanna... yes it would suggest they had not been in the tower for that long.... but they didn't.... finding Ned holding the dead woman's hand.... does not equal discovered Ned's location. I found you with your pants down... does not mean I did not know where you were... it means i did not know what you were doing.

It suggests enough passage of time that Lyanna's location was discovered. then blank for an undetermined amount of time in which a fever takes Lyannas strength... then Lyanna dies and Ned remains with her... and then an undetermined amount of time later They find him with her.

They means either there were servants or people in the ToJ or more of Ned's people had arrived.

So 2 undetermined amounts of time and an unspecified "they" suggests?

By the way in this scene the showdown is not mentioned in any way...

So, for the most part, I've disregarded everything State has said because it's been nonsense. But if the THEY FOUND HIM is accurate (ie, not a misquote from the book), this opens up a whole new can of worms.

As far as we know, there were 11 +1 (Jon) at the ToJ. Ned & Co, Kings Guard, Lyanna, and possibly Jon. After the confrontation, supposedly only Ned and Howland are left to find Lyanna (and Jon).

If we accept that Lyanna died there at the Tower of Joy, and THEY found Eddard still holding her after she died, we have Howland Reed and ...... no one else. They would then be an improper pronoun, since only one person remained who could possible do the finding Ned in that situation. So to me, once again assuming it's THEY in the book, means:

Lyanna Stark was moved and died (and possibly gave birth) at the second location, Starfall perhaps?

OR

Someone besides Ned and Howland Reed walked away from that tower.

No one really responded to state bringing that up. Are there any rebuttals to that, or is that a hint that Lyanna might have died some time after the confrontation?

[BearQueen87]

So, for the most part, I've disregarded everything State has said because it's been nonsense. But if the THEY FOUND HIM is accurate (ie, not a misquote from the book), this opens up a whole new can of worms.

As far as we know, there were 11 +1 (Jon) at the ToJ. Ned & Co, Kings Guard, Lyanna, and possibly Jon. After the confrontation, supposedly only Ned and Howland are left to find Lyanna (and Jon).

If we accept that Lyanna died there at the Tower of Joy, and THEY found Eddard still holding her after she died, we have Howland Reed and ...... no one else. They would then be an improper pronoun, since only one person remained who could possible do the finding Ned in that situation. So to me, once again assuming it's THEY in the book, means:

Lyanna Stark was moved and died (and possibly gave birth) at the second location, Starfall perhaps?

OR

Someone besides Ned and Howland Reed walked away from that tower.

No one really responded to state bringing that up. Are there any rebuttals to that, or is that a hint that Lyanna might have died some time after the confrontation?

We actually addressed this quite a bit in a previous thread, but there is a belief that present at the ToJ were servants--to cook, clean, plus a midwife/wet nurse to help Lyanna when her time came. The KG are many things, but midwives they are not. These servants, if they are not a fabrication, were most likely brought up from Starfall, Arthur Dayne's home. They would be loyal to Dayne and to the Targs as Starfall were Targ loyalists. It's possible that Wylla was there to assist Lyanna and so her duties as wet nurse continued after the battle.

[Chebyshov]

^Isn't it widely thought that "they" could be Howland + a wet-nurse (Wylla, most likely)?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

^Isn't it widely thought that "they" could be Howland + a wet-nurse (Wylla, most likely)?

Yep :)

[JonSnow4President]

Thanks. Completely forgot about the need for a midwife, or the fact that two pampered highborns would likely need a servant or two. Closes up the need for it being somewhere else if that is true.

[tf13]

On naming Jon "Aemon", and why Ned didn't keep the name, if it is his name, wouldn't it be a bit of a giveaway? I mean, naming "your bastard" a Targaryen name? Who would do that. And remember how much crap Rhaegar Frey gets for his name from Manderly(?). I don't think it's looked well upon to give a non-Targ a Targ name.

[stateofdissipation]

So, for the most part, I've disregarded everything State has said because it's been nonsense. But if the THEY FOUND HIM is accurate (ie, not a misquote from the book), this opens up a whole new can of worms.

As far as we know, there were 11 +1 (Jon) at the ToJ. Ned & Co, Kings Guard, Lyanna, and possibly Jon. After the confrontation, supposedly only Ned and Howland are left to find Lyanna (and Jon).

If we accept that Lyanna died there at the Tower of Joy, and THEY found Eddard still holding her after she died, we have Howland Reed and ...... no one else. They would then be an improper pronoun, since only one person remained who could possible do the finding Ned in that situation. So to me, once again assuming it's THEY in the book, means:

Lyanna Stark was moved and died (and possibly gave birth) at the second location, Starfall perhaps?

OR

Someone besides Ned and Howland Reed walked away from that tower.

No one really responded to state bringing that up. Are there any rebuttals to that, or is that a hint that Lyanna might have died some time after the confrontation?

There is a pretty good reason nobody responded:We can't know.

We can't know.

Lyanna Stark was moved and died (and possibly gave birth) at the second location, Starfall perhaps?

OR

Someone besides Ned and Howland Reed walked away from that tower.

That is about as close as we can get to an answer without resorting to fan fiction. Most stop shy of outright inventing a cook, midwife, butler, and other servants. Instead they choose to ignore it.

If you leave the unspecified "they" in place, Jon was not necessarily born before the showdown. If Jon was not necessarily born before the showdown, the KG did not have to be guarding Jon.

Accepting the unspecified "they" as unspecified should not be that hard.

[BearQueen87]

On naming Jon "Aemon", and why Ned didn't keep the name, if it is his name, wouldn't it be a bit of a giveaway? I mean, naming "your bastard" a Targaryen name? Who would do that. And remember how much crap Rhaegar Frey gets for his name from Manderly(?). I don't think it's looked well upon to give a non-Targ a Targ name.

Oh he absolutely wouldn't keep it. Especially when his best friend, the new king, is a major Targ hater. "Hey Robert! This is my bastard! I named him after the dynasty we just overthrew!"

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On naming Jon "Aemon", and why Ned didn't keep the name, if it is his name, wouldn't it be a bit of a giveaway? I mean, naming "your bastard" a Targaryen name? Who would do that. And remember how much crap Rhaegar Frey gets for his name from Manderly(?). I don't think it's looked well upon to give a non-Targ a Targ name.

Manderly has a problem with Rhaegar Frey being named "Rhaegar" because of what Rhaegar Frey is.. namely a Frey.

There was on way for Ned to keep Jon's Targaryen name.. Robert was extremely anti-Targaryen, it would have been more than weird for Ned to call his bastard by a Targaryen name.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

There is a pretty good reason nobody responded:We can't know.

We can't know.

Lyanna Stark was moved and died (and possibly gave birth) at the second location, Starfall perhaps?

OR

Someone besides Ned and Howland Reed walked away from that tower.

That is about as close as we can get to an answer without resorting to fan fiction. Most stop shy of outright inventing a cook, midwife, butler, and other servants. Instead they choose to ignore it.

If you leave the unspecified "they" in place, Jon was not necessarily born before the showdown. If Jon was not necessarily born before the showdown, the KG did not have to be guarding Jon.

Accepting the unspecified "they" as unspecified should not be that hard.

If Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, it would be impossible to keep such a birth a secret. So I doubt that that is what happened.

[BearQueen87]

If Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, it would be impossible to keep such a birth a secret. So I doubt that that is what happened.

It would also mean moving her from the ToJ to Starfall. Lyanna is already ill; you do not put a pregnant woman on the back of a horse to ride over the mountain at the tail end of a war if you hope for mother and child to survive.

[PirateVergo]

Why would Lyanna give a Targ name to Jon if she knew that Rhaegar died?

There's no point giving him a name he'll never use.

[Ygritte]

Manderly has a problem with Rhaegar Frey being named "Rhaegar" because of what Rhaegar Frey is.. namely a Frey.

There was on way for Ned to keep Jon's Targaryen name.. Robert was extremely anti-Targaryen, it would have been more than weird for Ned to call his bastard by a Targaryen name.

This. Manderly thought Rhaegar Frey was unworthy to share a name with the late prince, not that no one should be named that except Targs.

Agree, if Jon had a Targ name, it was planned between Rhaegar and Lyanna before he left for the war, or given by Lyanna alone between the birth and her death.

[Ygritte]

Why would Lyanna give a Targ name to Jon if she knew that Rhaegar died?

There's no point giving him a name he'll never use.

She probably didn't know at first that she would die. Had she recovered and gone into exile, for example, the name would have been fine. Or it could have been decided between R and L months earlier. I'm sure she knew, by the time she was dying and entrusted the baby to Ned, that he wouldn't keep being called that.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Why would Lyanna give a Targ name to Jon if she knew that Rhaegar died?

There's no point giving him a name he'll never use.

There's actually not much sense to name giving of children. Why would anybody name their children the way they do? Mostly for very personal reasons.

Calling them after elder family members is a rather safe way to name children if you want to avoid some of the wrath of your family...

[BearQueen87]

Why would Lyanna give a Targ name to Jon if she knew that Rhaegar died?

There's no point giving him a name he'll never use.

Well he's still Rhaegar's son, and TPTWP. Even if she asks Ned to protect the baby and keep him safe, she'd still want to name him for the love she bore his father, and the love she bares the babe.

[stateofdissipation]

If Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, it would be impossible to keep such a birth a secret. So I doubt that that is what happened.

That is about as close as we can get to an answer without resorting to fan fiction

It was not an exhaustive list of possibilities.

"They"-- means we are missing something. The story of Lyanna's death and then complete events after the showdown are not given--

I can come up with what it may have been... you can come up with it may have been... we can shoot holes in eachother's ideas of what may have been... or we can skip all that.. and say the truth:

I don't know. there are missing elements between the showdown and Lyana's death.