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R+L=J v 87


Stubby

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That is about as close as we can get to an answer without resorting to fan fiction

It was not an exhaustive list of possibilities.

"They"-- means we are missing something. The story of Lyanna's death and then complete events after the showdown are not given--

I can come up with what it may have been... you can come up with it may have been... we can shoot holes in eachother's ideas of what may have been... or we can skip all that.. and say the truth:

I don't know. there are missing elements between the showdown and Lyana's death.

Yes there are missing elements, I agree. We can't KNOW until GRRM writes it and we read it. But, that's what headcanons are for!

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Yes there are missing elements, I agree. We can't KNOW until GRRM writes it and we read it. But, that's what headcanons are for!

And speculating on threads! :cool4: We'd have nothing to say on here if there were no questions or mysteries in the series!

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Another thing that occurs to me is that even if Jon was never named Aemon originally, if the time ever comes that he needs to take a Targ name (like the way some royals in our real world will go by one thing as a kid or privately, then pick a different name to rule under), Aemon might be a natural choice for him since he admired the old one at the Wall so much.

But is there a precedent for taking a regnal name in the books? It seems like monarchs in ASOIAF just keep their birthnames.

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Yes there are missing elements, I agree. We can't KNOW until GRRM writes it and we read it. But, that's what headcanons are for!

Headcanon is an idea, belief or aspect of a character’s personality or physicality that is present in a piece of fanwork that does not correspond with information present in the canonical material. Fans and fanfiction authors will often write with these aspects of their headcanon in mind. In certain cases, specific aspects of headcanon can evolve into fanon, which is a specific fandom belief is accepted to the point where it becomes widely accepted concept in the fandom, sometimes escalating to be embraced by canon work.

I did not know that term... I lumped that all in to the derisive title of "fan fiction." (which it pretty much is)

But you actually admitted it which is awesome. Thank you... I had been under the impression that we were discussing canon. If we acknowledge we are speaking of headcanon... i have no problem with like 99 percent of the things that I cited as problematic,

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But is there a precedent for taking a regnal name in the books? It seems like monarchs in ASOIAF just keep their birthnames.

Hmm, I'm not sure!

Headcanon is an idea, belief or aspect of a character’s personality or physicality that is present in a piece of fanwork that does not correspond with information present in the canonical material. Fans and fanfiction authors will often write with these aspects of their headcanon in mind. In certain cases, specific aspects of headcanon can evolve into fanon, which is a specific fandom belief is accepted to the point where it becomes widely accepted concept in the fandom, sometimes escalating to be embraced by canon work.

I did not know that term... I lumped that all in to the derisive title of "fan fiction." (which it pretty much is)

But you actually admitted it which is awesome. Thank you... I had been under the impression that we were discussing canon. If we acknowledge we are speaking of headcanon... i have no problem with like 99 percent of the things that I cited as problematic,

It's pretty obvious that we discuss both. And it's usually pretty clear which one we're doing at any given time.

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Headcanon is an idea, belief or aspect of a character’s personality or physicality that is present in a piece of fanwork that does not correspond with information present in the canonical material. Fans and fanfiction authors will often write with these aspects of their headcanon in mind. In certain cases, specific aspects of headcanon can evolve into fanon, which is a specific fandom belief is accepted to the point where it becomes widely accepted concept in the fandom, sometimes escalating to be embraced by canon work.

I did not know that term... I lumped that all in to the derisive title of "fan fiction." (which it pretty much is)

But you actually admitted it which is awesome. Thank you... I had been under the impression that we were discussing canon. If we acknowledge we are speaking of headcanon... i have no problem with like 99 percent of the things that I cited as problematic,

Wellllllll.....it's the same but also not. Just from some the POV of someone who spends a lot of time in fandom, I consider fan fiction to be wish fulfillment, the idea that you want something to happen so you write/dream it that way. Headcanon, specifcially the headcanon we have in the R+L = J threads is based on literary evidence, clues, deep readings, symbology, and yes some logical intuitive leaps.

Fan fiction comes down to "this is how I wish the story would be told"

Headcanon is "This is how I think the story is being told"

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Wellllllll.....it's the same but also not. Just from some the POV of someone who spends a lot of time in fandom, I consider fan fiction to be wish fulfillment, the idea that you want something to happen so you write/dream it that way. Headcanon, specifcially the headcanon we have in the R+L = J threads is based on literary evidence, clues, deep readings, symbology, and yes some logical intuitive leaps.

Fan fiction comes down to "this is how I wish the story would be told"

Headcanon is "This is how I think the story is being told"

And theories are kind of like "This is how I think the story is being told, and here's textual evidence." It's not like in headcanon or theories, we're just making stuff up--we're analyzing what's actually written.

An example of just plain wish fulfillment would be a comment I made in the Dolorous Edd thread this morning imagining a potential happy future for him. It's based on pretty much nothing. I was just making stuff up. That's not what anybody's doing here, SOD; it's a theory based on evidence, and we use the discussion to sound out and theorize about parts of it we don't understand yet.

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Wellllllll.....it's the same but also not. Just from some the POV of someone who spends a lot of time in fandom, I consider fan fiction to be wish fulfillment, the idea that you want something to happen so you write/dream it that way. Headcanon, specifcially the headcanon we have in the R+L = J threads is based on literary evidence, clues, deep readings, symbology, and yes some logical intuitive leaps.

Fan fiction comes down to "this is how I wish the story would be told"

Headcanon is "This is how I think the story is being told"

How far off canon can one go?

can we make the intuitive leap-- that "they" are present during the showdown-- in support of the intuitive leap that KG were present at the showdown to protect Jon?

that is really self supporting what appears to be--wishing the story was told that way.

Remove(Replace with goldcloaks) the KG present to protect Jon and you remove the intuitition that "they" must have been present at the showdown.

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How far off canon can one go?

can we make the intuitive leap-- that "they" are present during the showdown-- in support of the intuitive leap that KG were present at the showdown to protect Jon?

that is really self supporting what appears to be--wishing the story was told that way.

Remove(Replace with goldcloaks) the KG present to protect Jon and you remove the intuitition that "they" must have been present at the showdown.

If it helps, the app states Lyanna's death the following:

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne , at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy .

If Lyanna hadn't died at ToJ, that there is no reason for the app to state it the way it does now. The app could have stated it more mysteriously, like, "Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne"

Instead, ToJ was specified.

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How far off canon can one go?

can we make the intuitive leap-- that "they" are present during the showdown-- in support of the intuitive leap that KG were present at the showdown to protect Jon?

that is really self supporting what appears to be--wishing the story was told that way.

Remove(Replace with goldcloaks) the KG present to protect Jon and you remove the intuitition that "they" must have been present at the showdown.

Off canon, for me, would be something like: "Rhaegar Targaryen was alive and hiding in the bushes at the ToJ and now lives beyond the Wall as Mance Rayder! For reasons!"

However, saying that the "they" are servants from Starfall isn't too far outside the realm of possibility. The KG were not maids. They might have been able to tend a little bit for themselves, but for a sick woman? For a sick HIGH BORN woman? For a sick high born woman and the Heir to the Throne? Hmmm. Stretchy. Dayne is essentially Rhaegar's BFF. He has loyal servants who are loyal to Dayne and the Targs. He brought some up for the cooking and cleaning. They were still there at the showdown. That is evidenced by text (the they) and by plain logic (the KG fight, they do not cook and serve meals).

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Off canon, for me, would be something like: "Rhaegar Targaryen was alive and hiding in the bushes at the ToJ and now lives beyond the Wall as Mance Rayder! For reasons!"

However, saying that the "they" are servants from Starfall isn't too far outside the realm of possibility. The KG were not maids. They might have been able to tend a little bit for themselves, but for a sick woman? For a sick HIGH BORN woman? For a sick high born woman and the Heir to the Throne? Hmmm. Stretchy. Dayne is essentially Rhaegar's BFF. He has loyal servants who are loyal to Dayne and the Targs. He brought some up for the cooking and cleaning. They were still there at the showdown. That is evidenced by text (the they) and by plain logic (the KG fight, they do not cook and serve meals).

Yes! I'll freely admit it when I'm crackpotting. I don't think speculating that nobles have servants is crackpot; it's a logical speculation based on the known fact that there was still a "they" hanging around after the fighters had died.

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Off canon, for me, would be something like: "Rhaegar Targaryen was alive and hiding in the bushes at the ToJ and now lives beyond the Wall as Mance Rayder! For reasons!"

However, saying that the "they" are servants from Starfall isn't too far outside the realm of possibility. The KG were not maids. They might have been able to tend a little bit for themselves, but for a sick woman? For a sick HIGH BORN woman? For a sick high born woman and the Heir to the Throne? Hmmm. Stretchy. Dayne is essentially Rhaegar's BFF. He has loyal servants who are loyal to Dayne and the Targs. He brought some up for the cooking and cleaning. They were still there at the showdown. That is evidenced by text (the they) and by plain logic (the KG fight, they do not cook and serve meals).

Not even for a sick woman necessarily. But for a pregnant woman who happened to get sick later on.

Because I don't think anyone believes that one of the KG knights would assist at the birth :)

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Didn't you know? Whent did the cooking and Dayne did the laundry. Washing Lyanna's unmentionables was a cherished task.

Did Hightower just sit around and bark orders? Lazy knight!

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Wellllllll.....it's the same but also not. Just from some the POV of someone who spends a lot of time in fandom, I consider fan fiction to be wish fulfillment, the idea that you want something to happen so you write/dream it that way. Headcanon, specifcially the headcanon we have in the R+L = J threads is based on literary evidence, clues, deep readings, symbology, and yes some logical intuitive leaps.

Fan fiction comes down to "this is how I wish the story would be told"

Headcanon is "This is how I think the story is being told"

I agree with this distinction. More to the point, however, is the difference between canon and headcanon and perhaps a third category of nearcanon (in between canon and headcanon). So while R+L=J may not be canon because GRRM has not made it explicit yet, and in theory could still write it differently (even if originally intended to be written that way), it is nearcanon. Too many clues would make no sense if R+L=J is not true, so we cannot quite call it canon, but it is really stronger than headcanon (as you defined it) but rather what I am calling nearcanon (almost certainly canon, but not explicitly revealed). Most other theories around here that are based on logical reasoning would be headcanon. Of course both nearcanon and headcanon can be wrong, in the end, but headcanon is more likely to be wrong. But headcanon really is not the same as fanfic or just wild guesses or illogical conclusions.

So when people conclude that Lyanna died in ToJ shortly after the showdown, and the "they" that found Ned, in additional to Howland, would include servants as well as probably a wetnurse, these are logical conclusions. No, we cannot prove from canon that these are true, as the story allows for other possibilities. But based on the information we have, these conclusions seem likely to be true, making them what you have dubbed headcanon. Of course, everyone will have a different view as to what is nearcanon or headcanon or just wild speculation or illogical reasoning (informed people should not disagree on what is canon). But I think these distinctions are meaningful, as they demonstrate a level of probability that the conclusions will turn out to be accurate.

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And Hightower drew the shortest straw and was tasked with assisting with the birth of Lyanna's baby when the time case, right? :) :P

That's what happens when you arrive as last.

:lmao: You're reading my mind :lmao:

I'm also getting this image of the three battle-worn veterans fainting one by one when set before this particular task :D

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How far off canon can one go?

can we make the intuitive leap-- that "they" are present during the showdown-- in support of the intuitive leap that KG were present at the showdown to protect Jon?

that is really self supporting what appears to be--wishing the story was told that way.

Remove(Replace with goldcloaks) the KG present to protect Jon and you remove the intuitition that "they" must have been present at the showdown.

I never asserted that Lyanna did not die at the ToJ.---but if i had i can point out that it is not in the text where she died. then you could point out the roses... and i would say good enough--

The point was there is information missing between the showdown (Ned and Howland) and Lyanna's death. (They)

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