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R+L=J v 87


Stubby

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Lets see Ygrain, Joncon, Bearqueen, and Rhaenys... none of you answered who "they" were... yet all of you asserted that Jon was born before the showdown. Now that you think you can fill the gaping hole you left by mocking your own position....

Now that we are all feeling very clever... what text do you have that shows Jon was born pre-showdown?

--If you wish to use the interrupred dream sequence of the ToJ as a specific timeline-- you will go against the SSM that warns against doing exactly that.... if you wish to discard SSM you discard "polygamy was never made illegal."

It's cute that you think I'm going to get dragged back into this after 26 pages in the KG thread, plus the entire last iteration of R+J = L thread.

Sorry. But no. I can't try to do the whole "fever, blood, death" thing again. Someone else can take up this task.

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So funny... :rofl: :lmao:

And don't forget to put something on Jon.

Dayne: Hightower give me your cloak.

Hightower: What!?? Why??

Dayne: Our king is naked.

Hightower: Why do you guys pick on me so much.

Dayne and Whent: We have told you. Who do you think had to listen while Rhaegar and Lyanna had their wedding night. It sure as hell wasn't you.

Hightower: Here...but when our king grows up he will be hearing about this.

Whent: What evs....Guys I think we have some trouble.

Wait! Are you trying to say "the Emporer has no clothes"?!! :D

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No matter what, "they" finding Ned is after the showdown, because Ned has talked with Lyanna as she died. That can't happen pre showdown. So, like you seem completely unable to comprehend, they (and this seems like the most plausible and simple explanation) refers to Howland and one or more of Lyanna's servants.

because Ned has talked with Lyanna as she died. That can't happen pre showdown

Ned talked with Lyanna after the showdown---

I think you missed the question....

what text do you have that shows Jon was born pre-showdown?

--If you wish to use the interrupred dream sequence of the ToJ as a specific timeline-- you will go against the SSM that warns against doing exactly that.... if you wish to discard SSM you discard "polygamy was never made illegal."

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And we've already talked about the dream and the polygamy and everything you're asking for; you just didn't read it. We don't need to regurgitate the same thing over again until it fills up the thread. and the next thread. and the next... :rolleyes:

what text do you have that shows Jon was born pre-showdown?

a line, a page, a word-- a chapter... anything...

regurgitate--- i am asking for 3 numbers...

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It's cute that you think I'm going to get dragged back into this after 26 pages in the KG thread, plus the entire last iteration of R+J = L thread.

Sorry. But no. I can't try to do the whole "fever, blood, death" thing again. Someone else can take up this task.

Can you come up with a chapter, or a page number...not asking you to recite why.. or rehash the argument...

what text do you have that shows Jon was born pre-showdown?

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So funny... :rofl: :lmao:

And don't forget to put something on Jon.

Dayne: Hightower give me your cloak.

Hightower: What!?? Why??

Dayne: Our king is naked.

Hightower: Why do you guys pick on me so much.

Dayne and Whent: We have told you. Who do you think had to listen while Rhaegar and Lyanna had their wedding night. It sure as hell wasn't you.

Hightower: Here...but when our king grows up he will be hearing about this.

Whent: What evs....Guys I think we have some trouble.

Fortunately, Lyanna and Lysa were not related, or one would say that the trait of noisy wedding nights runs in the family :P

And we've already talked about the dream and the polygamy and everything you're asking for; you just didn't read it. We don't need to regurgitate the same thing over again until it fills up the thread. and the next thread. and the next... :rolleyes:

These questions are the daily bread

of almost each and every thread,

but not a tear will now be shed

that we have embraced jokes instead.

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Maybe the KG lost because they spend so many nights awaken because baby Jon cried too much =(

That nicely fits with the theory that the KG actually had a deathwish. I can fully commiserate.

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Can you come up with a chapter, or a page number...not asking you to recite why.. or rehash the argument...

what text do you have that shows Jon was born pre-showdown?

No, but text isn't necessary.

There is this wonderful tool called logic. So let's use it.

For Jon was born before: The Kingsguard duty is to defend the king and/or his immediately family. If they do not believe Jon to be king, they have no reason to be there. Jon is a cousin of Viserys (which would not necessitate three of them staying there, if any), who would be the rightful king if it is not Jon. Since we know that they are honorable men, the epitome of what honorable means, by far the simplest explanation is that they believe Jon to be their king.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Any other explanation requires mental gymnastics or significantly more numerous and more severe assumptions to make sense. Therefore, I'm going with the simplest explanation.

For she died immediately after:

Yes, they moved a 9 month pregnant woman over mountainous terrain, in a world where even a short journey is at least a full day's ride, from the relative safety of an isolated Tower to somewhere else. (See the above link).

Text confirmation is the only way to be 100% sure. In the absence of that, we use logic and the information we have available, with as few minor assumptions as possible, to get us to the closest approximation of the correct answer.

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stateofdissipation



From AGoT pgs. 43-44 paperback




"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.



the definition of found


found1


found/





  1. 1.


    past and past participle of find.






adjective

adjective: found



  1. 1.



    having been discovered by chance or unexpectedly, in particular.






    • (of an object or sound) collected in its natural state and presented in a new context as part of a work of art or piece of music.

      "collages of found photos"







    • (of art) comprising or making use of found objects.







    • (of poetry) formed by reinterpreting metrically the structure of a nonpoetic text.










  2. 2.


    (of a ship) equipped; supplied.

    "the ship was two years old, well found and seaworthy"






It's a little hard to find someone if you already know where they are going to be. Also most fever's don't kill in a few hours.


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Can you come up with a chapter, or a page number...not asking you to recite why.. or rehash the argument...

what text do you have that shows Jon was born pre-showdown?

There was blood on Lyanna's bed? She was there in her bed of blood - but would Ned refer to as that if Lyanna died BEFORE giving birth (and therefore, there is no blood?) Ned finds her after the showdown, so Lyanna either gave birth while those guys were fighting, or before. Or after she died. Which is highly unlikely.

If you mean that they moved a pregnant Lyanna to Starfall or anywhere and she died there: that makes no sense, since Ned destroyed the ToJ because Lyanna died there IIRC.

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Lets see Ygrain, Joncon, Bearqueen, and Rhaenys... none of you answered who "they" were... yet all of you asserted that Jon was born before the showdown. Now that you think you can fill the gaping hole you left by mocking your own position....

Now that we are all feeling very clever... what text do you have that shows Jon was born pre-showdown?

--If you wish to use the interrupred dream sequence of the ToJ as a specific timeline-- you will go against the SSM that warns against doing exactly that.... if you wish to discard SSM you discard "polygamy was never made illegal."

We have GRRM stating that Dany was born 9 months after the Sack, and that Jon was born 8 to 9 months prior to Dany, which means, that Jon was born in a timeframe that lasts from the Sack until a month after.

Comparing the distance from the Trident to King's Landing, a distance that Ned travelled with an army in a week (as stated in the text, Rossart was Hand for a fortnight=14 days. Rossart became Hand before Rhaegar went to the Trident, since Rhaegar left with Jon Darry, and Jon Darry was still in KL the night that Rossarts predecessor died -- With Rhaegar and army traveling to the Trident, two armies fighting, the rebels regrouping and traveling to KL all in 2 week, Ned's time for travelling from the Trident to KL is on average a week), we can see that it would have taken Ned slightly more than a week to travel from KL to Storm's End (the distance is about the same, but an army would not be able to travel at such a high speed two weeks in a row, so the speed would be down slightly), and about 2 weeks to travel from SE to TOJ (since the distance is about twice as much as the distance between KL and SE).

That's a bit more than three weeks.

Add to that Ned's time at KL until Robert arrived (and we know that Robert arrived later, because he had been injured), Neds time arguing with Robert at KL, Ned's time at SE to sort out the Siege, you come up to a month.

Which covers the period in which Jon was born according to GRRM

Also, this:

There was blood on Lyanna's bed? She was there in her bed of blood - but would Ned refer to as that if Lyanna died BEFORE giving birth (and therefore, there is no blood?) Ned finds her after the showdown, so Lyanna either gave birth while those guys were fighting, or before. Or after she died. Which is highly unlikely.

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Awww. Let's go back to making fun of the KG. ;)

And ^ yes all of that.

Whent: "Yo, Arthur, Lady Lyanna has cravings again... your turn to go fetch some pickles and honey!"

Dayne /pouty face/

/Hightower turns up/

Whent + Dayne: "Yo, chief, have you brought some pickles?"

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